Harvard Sticker v. Texas Full-Ride Forum

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

What? by COA I include interest at loan repayment

Then yes, by that definition, dollar amounts become an apples-to-apples definition. A lot of people use COA to mean "total debt at graduation," in which dollar differences mean different things based on different amounts.

[jbagelboy]

What? by COA I include interest at loan repayment

Then yes, by that definition, dollar amounts become an apples-to-apples definition. A lot of people use COA to mean "total debt at graduation," in which dollar differences mean different things based on different amounts.

I think you are a little confused, or maybe we are talking about the same thing? your debt at repayment (graduation + whatever grace period applies) always includes your interest, that's what capitalization means. there is no COA debt at graduation sans interest

edit: you can have total cost without interest if you're paying in cash, but thats not debt

[untar614]

What? by COA I include interest at loan repayment

Then yes, by that definition, dollar amounts become an apples-to-apples definition. A lot of people use COA to mean "total debt at graduation," in which dollar differences mean different things based on different amounts.

I think you are a little confused, or maybe we are talking about the same thing? your debt at repayment (graduation + whatever grace period applies) always includes your interest, that's what capitalization means. there is no COA debt at graduation sans interest

edit: you can have total cost without interest if you're paying in cash, but thats not debt

I think he's talking about total amount paid over the lifetime of the loan (i.e. if you paid it off over 10 years, what you will have paid will be greater than the loan debt at graduation)

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

What? by COA I include interest at loan repayment

Then yes, by that definition, dollar amounts become an apples-to-apples definition. A lot of people use COA to mean "total debt at graduation," in which dollar differences mean different things based on different amounts.

I think you are a little confused, or maybe we are talking about the same thing? your debt at repayment (graduation + whatever grace period applies) always includes your interest, that's what capitalization means. there is no COA debt at graduation sans interest

edit: you can have total cost without interest if you're paying in cash, but thats not debt

I'm now definitely confused as to whether we're talking about the same thing. My point was just to say over a given period by which you pay your debt off (say, seven years after graduation), each additional dollar costs more and more because interest compounds over a longer period of time. Suppose $250k of debt at graduation eventually costs $320k to pay off, and $200k of debt at graduation eventually costs $255k to pay off. The difference of $50k of graduation debt turns out to be $75k. But if $100k of debt at graduation costs $115k to pay off and $50k of debt at graduation costs $55k to pay off, then the difference of $50k of graduation debt is only $60k. At higher debt levels, each dollar costs more because it has a longer time to compound over the longer repayment periods. This is something one has to take it account, but it isn't considered if one just uses COA to mean "total debt at graduation." In that instance, the phrase "50k COA difference" means something different, depending on how high the total debt levels are.

[jbagelboy]

What? by COA I include interest at loan repayment

Then yes, by that definition, dollar amounts become an apples-to-apples definition. A lot of people use COA to mean "total debt at graduation," in which dollar differences mean different things based on different amounts.

I think you are a little confused, or maybe we are talking about the same thing? your debt at repayment (graduation + whatever grace period applies) always includes your interest, that's what capitalization means. there is no COA debt at graduation sans interest

edit: you can have total cost without interest if you're paying in cash, but thats not debt

I'm now definitely confused as to whether we're talking about the same thing. My point was just to say over a given period by which you pay your debt off (say, seven years after graduation), each additional dollar costs more and more because interest compounds over a longer period of time. Suppose $250k of debt at graduation eventually costs $320k to pay off, and $200k of debt at graduation eventually costs $255k to pay off. The difference of $50k of graduation debt turns out to be $75k. But if $100k of debt at graduation costs $115k to pay off and $50k of debt at graduation costs $55k to pay off, then the difference of $50k of graduation debt is only $60k. At higher debt levels, each dollar costs more because it has a longer time to compound over the longer repayment periods. This is something one has to take it account, but it isn't considered if one just uses COA to mean "total debt at graduation." In that instance, the phrase "50k COA difference" means something different, depending on how high the total debt levels are.

okay. we were talking about different phenomena. prolly my bad for not reading thru the entire thread; I thought you were saying that sticker would be $220K debt w/o interest, which would never occur with unsubsidized loans.

however, even w/ your approach, I never advise ppl to look at the total amount of repayment 7-10 yrs out. same with buying a car, you look at monthly payment structure not end of 60/72 month total paid. I mean, sure, it's good to have a ballpark figure, but when you put your put a mortgage on a $400K house at like 3% interest, yea its gonna be close to a million $ after 30 yrs but you don't say "I'm buying a million dollar house"

the approach you are advocating leads to the thought pattern that paying off $5K/month on biglaw and living in a cardboard box is TCR out of fear of growing debt absolute debt. personally I'm less concerned about that then the debt level when you graduate, but this is probably rooted partly in my financial training and life planning, your point is noted and I see where you are coming from

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

okay. we were talking about different phenomena. prolly my bad for not reading thru the entire thread; I thought you were saying that sticker would be $220K debt w/o interest, which would never occur with unsubsidized loans.

however, even w/ your approach, I never advise ppl to look at the total amount of repayment 7-10 yrs out. same with buying a car, you look at monthly payment structure not end of 60/72 month total paid. I mean, sure, it's good to have a ballpark figure, but when you put your put a mortgage on a $400K house at like 3% interest, yea its gonna be close to a million $ after 30 yrs but you don't say "I'm buying a million dollar house"

the approach you are advocating leads to the thought pattern that paying off $5K/month on biglaw and living in a cardboard box is TCR out of fear of growing debt absolute debt. personally I'm less concerned about that then the debt level when you graduate, but this is probably rooted partly in my financial training and life planning, your point is noted and I see where you are coming from

Paying back the debt ASAP is not necessarily TCR, but it seems to be one that a lot of people are interested in (far as I'm concerned, it's up to each individual to determine the kind of lifestyle they want to live as long as they're making the minimum payments). For the people who are trying to pay back ASAP, it's different than a mortage because you're trying to accelerate the payment schedule. When you buy a $400k house, that number is used colloquially because nearly every buys a 30 year mortgage, but the total cost would be quite different if you buy a 15 year mortgage. More people seem to take a "pay it back ASAP" approach with student loan debt than with a mortgage, although again that approach is not for everybody. If the plan is just "pay it back in 10 years, no more no less", then COA differences are proportional to the total amount paid.

[sinfiery]

There is also the added thought of jobs one can take that is able to service the debt and how that changes in X years for which total debt at graduation is very important for.


PAYE is a govt safety net, but you have your own internal safety net you would ideally like to not fall under.

[Br3v]

Increase in risk per dollar of debt isn't linear tho

But for his H over Texas decision to have a positive NPV all that needs to happen is for H benefits to pay for the H tuition discounted at the relevant rate. That should be the focus of this discussion.

[BabyJT]

Increase in risk per dollar of debt isn't linear tho

But for his H over Texas decision to have a positive NPV all that needs to happen is for H benefits to pay for the H tuition discounted at the relevant rate. That should be the focus of this discussion.

Not true when he's looking at UT benefits paying for UG debt. So you have to factor it in. Or you would have to look at it as H at ~$250k vs UT at ~$0. Then, what's the better choice? UT.

[ajclark1992]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

[NanaP]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

Yikes at that H debt!

[BigZuck]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

Sounds like it might be time to hit up the bank of mom and dad

[jbagelboy]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

yo, yea thats pushing way over four hundred thousand dollars for harvard.

either your parents pay off the UG loans, or you go to UT. Many extremely successful attorneys go to UT.

[Br3v]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

The question is whether over the course of your career the benefit of H will be worth 190k plus interest. I would say yes, but also as I stated earlier I don't think it's an objectively bad choice to chose UT here.

[BigZuck]

My award was only in loans -- no grant or scholarship. Found out today. Texas offered an additional 5k stipend per year.

COA at UT: 40k
COA at Harvard: 230k

Total Debt before interest at UT: 160k
Total Debt before interest at H: 350k

yo, yea thats pushing way over four hundred thousand dollars for harvard.

either your parents pay off the UG loans, or you go to UT. Many extremely successful attorneys go to UT.

Given the OPs age, debt, and app strategy I still think copping DAT MORDECAI (or the equivalent) next year is the best course of action.

Feels gross telling someone to pass on Harvard though.

[Total Litigator]

Ugh, OP, this is a tough decision.

If it were me, I would go to Duke on a 2/3rds scholarship. However, obviously, Duke in not in front of you right now.

I think that if you want to work in Texas, Texas is the answer. I think it may not be as easy to come back to Texas for big law as some people make it out to be. Certainly, the Harvard diploma will market very well anywhere, but I think the Harvard biglaw jobs are slanted towards New York.

If you are comfortable working biglaw in New York, go to Harvard. If you really really want to work in Texas, I would say go to Texas. $400K is doable but difficult with biglaw - $400K has about $30K per year interest, so if you lived on $100K and put $60 per year towards your loans, by the end of year one you'd be down to about $370, year 2 perhaps $338, year 3 perhaps $306K, etc.

This is not an easy choice. Harvard is an amazing credential, but that debt is terrifying. On the other hand, Texas is a great school, but $160K in the hole is difficult to pay off as well (I would guess approximately 11.5K in interest per year).

[justinp]

I think that if you want to work in Texas, Texas is the answer. I think it may not be as easy to come back to Texas for big law as some people make it out to be. Certainly, the Harvard diploma will market very well anywhere, but I think the Harvard biglaw jobs are slanted towards New York.

This is completely incorrect. HLS is basically the holy grail for getting Texas Biglaw. The top firms are stacked with alumni, they hire aggressively, and they have 1L summer programs whose entire reason for existence is getting you in the pipeline early. With one or two exceptions every Texan I know at HLS had multiple summer offers with top 10 Texas firms. You can definitely get the same results at UT if you do well, but it's a heck of a lot easier at HLS (my offers came in before I even had a single semester's worth of grades).

[StylinNProfilin]

I think that if you want to work in Texas, Texas is the answer. I think it may not be as easy to come back to Texas for big law as some people make it out to be. Certainly, the Harvard diploma will market very well anywhere, but I think the Harvard biglaw jobs are slanted towards New York.

This is completely incorrect. HLS is basically the holy grail for getting Texas Biglaw. The top firms are stacked with alumni, they hire aggressively, and they have 1L summer programs whose entire reason for existence is getting you in the pipeline early. With one or two exceptions every Texan I know at HLS had multiple summer offers with top 10 Texas firms. You can definitely get the same results at UT if you do well, but it's a heck of a lot easier at HLS (my offers came in before I even had a single semester's worth of grades).

+1. This shouldn't be a concern at the least. Harvard is the safe choice u'll for sure get biglaw in Texas, however you'll be debt's bitch for a long time. If I was OP, I'd reapply and go to a T-14 at a fullride. I think Texas is too much of a risk when you already have that much debt.

[Toby Ziegler]

I would have to agree with the last few posts. You can go to Harvard with a (essentially) sure bet at big law wherever you want. I don't know what your situation is like but with the impressive numbers you have it wouldn't be a bad idea to reapply and look for a large scholarship. You probably won't see a TON of money from CCN but you can expect some pretty good $$ from everywhere else.

[BigZuck]

Bump to give this thread a little closure.

OP, what did you ultimately decide on and why?

[untar614]

Bump to give this thread a little closure.

OP, what did you ultimately decide on and why?

yeah, I'm curious as well

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Yeah, this one was a pretty tough decision. You could easily justify either side.

[ajclark1992]

I think I'm taking Harvard. The loan payments are a little nerve-racking, but here's what I'm thinking: For the first 2-4 years, I can put minimum payments on the GradPlus loans and pay the undergrad private loans off as quickly as possible. That'll open me up to use LIPP if I need it -- or to finish the payments 8 years out of school through private practice if I can stick it out. If I can get through the first 8-9 years out of law school by putting $4000 / month towards loans and putting bonuses towards loans (while still maintaining a relatively stable middle class take-home income in Texas), I'll be home free by the time I'm 31-33.

If I had decided on Texas over Harvard, I would have reapplied for next fall, knowing that the Texas scholarship would still probably be there. But I knew that I wasn't going to get into Harvard a second time and I couldn't pass up the opportunity.

It definitely won't be easy. And I'm still a little scared. Just got to take the dive and put in the deposit by the 14th. I really appreciate all y'all's advice. It was taken with more than a grain of salt, for sure.

[BigZuck]

I think I'm taking Harvard. The loan payments are a little nerve-racking, but here's what I'm thinking: For the first 2-4 years, I can put minimum payments on the GradPlus loans and pay the undergrad private loans off as quickly as possible. That'll open me up to use LIPP if I need it -- or to finish the payments 8 years out of school through private practice if I can stick it out. If I can get through the first 8-9 years out of law school by putting $4000 / month towards loans and putting bonuses towards loans (while still maintaining a relatively stable middle class take-home income in Texas), I'll be home free by the time I'm 31-33.

If I had decided on Texas over Harvard, I would have reapplied for next fall, knowing that the Texas scholarship would still probably be there. But I knew that I wasn't going to get into Harvard a second time and I couldn't pass up the opportunity.

It definitely won't be easy. And I'm still a little scared. Just got to take the dive and put in the deposit by the 14th. I really appreciate all y'all's advice. It was taken with more than a grain of salt, for sure.

$4000 a month for 8-9 years? Damn.

Seriously though, good luck man. It's a tough spot to be in either way so I hope it works out.

[Total Litigator]

I think I'm taking Harvard. The loan payments are a little nerve-racking, but here's what I'm thinking: For the first 2-4 years, I can put minimum payments on the GradPlus loans and pay the undergrad private loans off as quickly as possible. That'll open me up to use LIPP if I need it -- or to finish the payments 8 years out of school through private practice if I can stick it out. If I can get through the first 8-9 years out of law school by putting $4000 / month towards loans and putting bonuses towards loans (while still maintaining a relatively stable middle class take-home income in Texas), I'll be home free by the time I'm 31-33.

If I had decided on Texas over Harvard, I would have reapplied for next fall, knowing that the Texas scholarship would still probably be there. But I knew that I wasn't going to get into Harvard a second time and I couldn't pass up the opportunity.

It definitely won't be easy. And I'm still a little scared. Just got to take the dive and put in the deposit by the 14th. I really appreciate all y'all's advice. It was taken with more than a grain of salt, for sure.

Hey OP, you only live once and Harvard is Harvard. It will be tough, but I think you'll be okay.