NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School Forum

[skers]

Why would we assume that they're all decent PI jobs just by looking at random percentages? My statement wasn't intended to just be pointed at NYU (we hear the PI bias bit thrown around at a lot of schools) as we've seen just about every school have huge increase in PI placement ITE and I'm not going to buy that a widespread increase in PI placement is due just to self-selection. It's hard to tell.

I don't think it's hard to tell at all. NYU was pretty consistently around 10% in PI before the class of 2010. I'm sure the 2011 numbers will also show an increase. The rest of the people who had been going to firms appear to have headed to government and clerkships. The only conclusion to draw is that the "self-selection" towards PI/Gov occurred after those searching for firms couldn't get jobs in private practice.

All of which isn't to say that NYU sucks, just that the economy went to shit for a couple of years and people who otherwise would have gone into firms had to find other options. But the 10% going into PI in good times and bad may very well be finding elite PI jobs.

I do enjoy that people have taken this as an opportunity to white knight NYU. Like I said earlier, I was making a general response to ITE PI-selection claims (if you read earlier my response was orginally at a Michigan PI selection claim). I do think it's difficult generally (and especially ITE) to tell who is self-selecting into PI and who is settling for it after striking out. There's some of both. Evidence about 20 above median types can only tell so much considering what percentage 20 people is out of NYU's total class and even percentage of those above median (less than 1%).

[Bronck]

We have to counteract all the egregious Chicago trolling on this site after all.

[dissonance1848]

Just noticed something cool. If you look at the stats for Chicago, the number of people going to NLJ250 is around 65% of the people with 2L summer associate positions (for both 2010 and 2011). If one extrapolates to the Class of 2012, then it means that around 50% of Chicago grads from the Class of 2012 are projected to go to the NLJ250. Will be interesting to see.

[chasgoose]

If we assume even half of that 10% would have gotten biglaw w/o displacing anyone, then NYU basically has the same placement numbers as Chicago, if we were to give the whole 10% then it would be competitive w/ Columbia for that year.

Kinda tough to make that assumption and assume 0% PI placement for Columbia at the same time.

I meant that NYU PI placement I think for that class was around 15% and Columbia's was around 5%. I actually could be wrong, I'm pretty sure that Chicago's hovered around 5%, but CLS might have a bit more, no more than 10%.

Also, while I am definitely trying to white knight NYU a little bit here, my larger point is that the idea that PI is a backup for those who don't get biglaw is a pernicious 0L fallacy that seems all too common on these boards. As far as NYU goes, I am sure that there are 2L's doing PI for their 2L summer after striking out of NYU's EIW since they can work for free and get $6500 from NYU, but I doubt many of those types are doing PI upon graduation (most PI summer jobs don't turn into full-time offers of employment). Once again, I base my evidence on a limited sample, but given that there are 3L's set on PI with above median grades/law review or journal positions still jobless, I doubt many of the strike-out-at-EIW types are getting PI jobs. PI jobs that pay (even if that pay is $50k or less) are far and few between. I don't really know any of the strike-out-at-EIW types, but I doubt that many of them are doing PI and I would imagine it to be the same at most top schools.

As I see it, the only thing that makes PI jobs "easier" to get is that school prestige plays less of a factor than it does for biglaw hiring. Commitment to PI is really important to many of these organizations. They would rather have someone from the top third at CUNY who has shown a commitment to whatever area they work in than a below median person from CCN who has done very little PI related. Whereas biglaw would be more inclined to take the below median CCN type. Someone trying to do PI as a "backup" after getting shafted in EIW/OCI is going to have a very hard time finding employment if they weren't committed to PI already at that point, especially if their GPA is subpar.

[skers]

Just noticed something cool. If you look at the stats for Chicago, the number of people going to NLJ250 is around 65% of the people with 2L summer associate positions (for both 2010 and 2011). If one extrapolates to the Class of 2012, then it means that around 50% of Chicago grads from the Class of 2012 are projected to go to the NLJ250. Will be interesting to see.

I assume you're talking about SAs? For class of 2012 ~82 percent had SAs (including pi splits) and ~69 percent had nlj250 jobs. That includes those ineligible for OCI.

Eta: I bet NYU and Columbia are similar.

[TTRansfer]

So should I go to WVU over UGA?

I think the WVU students in biglaw are people who are doing career associate work for bigfirms that have offices in West Viriginia. I don't think those students are typical bigfirm associates. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

There is really no such thing as biglaw in that state, but looking through a few firms sites, I think it's inaccurate to say that the students will be doing "career associate" work. I don't think WV firms pay 160K, but they pay solid midlaw prices. And the cost of living is likely dirt cheap out there.

Looking at those WVU numbers makes me a bit jealous of where I am actually at, to be honest. Granted, that's why I'm trying to transfer...

[dissonance1848]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

[TTRansfer]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Maybe right, but looking through some firms sites makes that seem not exactly true. With that said, I merely looked at two of the bigger firms out there so maybe I am wrong. Either way, it places better than where I am at and a permanent 90K job would be lovely with the cost of living.

Like I said -- guess that's why I'm transferring.

And speaking of transferring, I was thinking of William & Mary. Not even in the top 50 at all? God damn. They got crushed.

[Gail]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Born to work in the mines.

[09042014]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Yea I wonder if working for Orick in that kind of role counts for NLJ250.

[Errzii]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/busin ... ack&st=cse

[Gail]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/busin ... ack&st=cse

I would love that.

[071816]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Yea I wonder if working for Orick in that kind of role counts for NLJ250.

I was wondering that too. Are non partner track positions or doc review jobs at big firms counted for the NLJ 250 data? Would be interesting to know.

[TTRansfer]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Yea I wonder if working for Orick in that kind of role counts for NLJ250.

I was wondering that too. Are non partner track positions or doc review jobs at big firms counted for the NLJ 250 data? Would be interesting to know.

I highly doubt doc review is. Non-partnership associate track positions are definitely counted, though, I'm sure. Scroll through some regional branches of firms in states like WV, though, and you do find quite a few partners who went to WV or surrounding area schools. So I think that these regional schools still get the most jobs in that region. Even above better school'd candidates.

[romothesavior]

My understanding is that firms are now creating associate positions in the backwoods like WV. They pay in the vicinity of 65-90k a year, have no consideration of partnership, and i think are permanent, not up and out positions.

If you want to live in a place like WV, probably an alright choice.

There was an NYT article a while ago about these positons, except that it mentioned a Michigan and a Northwestern grad.

Yea I wonder if working for Orick in that kind of role counts for NLJ250.

I was wondering that too. Are non partner track positions or doc review jobs at big firms counted for the NLJ 250 data? Would be interesting to know.

Almost certainly not doc review. Those are typically outsourced through doc review firms or something, so they're not really on the payroll of the law firms in most cases. Or at least that's my understanding of it. If they were counted, we'd have a lot more TTTs in the NLJ 250 list.

[de5igual]

what about "law clerks"? is this just another name for staff attorney/internal doc review?--I noticed a couple of these are T14ers

http://www.proskauer.com/professionals/

[bk1]

what about "law clerks"? is this just another name for staff attorney/internal doc review?--I noticed a couple of these are T14ers

http://www.proskauer.com/professionals/

No idea. It seems unlikely that they would be staff attorneys since a ton of them are T14'ers and a lot of them went to prestigious undergrads. LinkedIn stalking noted that they all seemed to SA there and that some of them called themselves associates on their LinkedIn page (some called themselves law clerks).

[Addy]

[I think that these regional schools still get the most jobs in that region. Even above better school'd candidates.

Are they really better schooled? Is the quality of one’s education better because their school has a higher USNWR ranking? Are there any transfer students who have an opinion on this? Did going from a lesser ranked school to a higher ranked school (or vise-versa) make a difference in your learning experience?

[ahnhub]

what about "law clerks"? is this just another name for staff attorney/internal doc review?--I noticed a couple of these are T14ers

http://www.proskauer.com/professionals/

I think they're just associates waiting to pass the bar?

[AugustaMasters]

what about "law clerks"? is this just another name for staff attorney/internal doc review?--I noticed a couple of these are T14ers

http://www.proskauer.com/professionals/

No idea. It seems unlikely that they would be staff attorneys since a ton of them are T14'ers and a lot of them went to prestigious undergrads. LinkedIn stalking noted that they all seemed to SA there and that some of them called themselves associates on their LinkedIn page (some called themselves law clerks).

I think they are attorneys who haven't fully passed the bar.

Edit: didn't see post above.