what is up with the "T14 or DON'T GO" sentiment?? Forum

[laxbrah420]

I would wager GPA is? Anecdotal, but I don’t know a single person with a 3.0+ from any degree (including opera performance, English, political science, graphic design) that does not have a professional job making 40k+, except for the people narrowing their search to nitch jobs/graduate schools (ta’s getting masters, English grads trying to get publishing jobs, HRM majors trying to find work in Vegas, etc.)

I'm starting to think this ingoodfaith guy was a social work major and somehow believes that only gender and family standing is a good predictor of employment

[sunynp]

I know a select few accounting majors who started at 6 figures before bonus (but 2 of the three had very connected families, and the third was the caddie of a very connected person who set him up with the job post-grad) But that is an advance degree (took 5 years at Mizzou, but I know other schools it can take 6) and passing the CPA is a bitch.

I think what LaxBrah is saying, is that law school is no different from undergraduate in terms of job prospects. The people who go to t-14 schools (or even any t1 school IMO) could probably find a job that pays 40k+ even in this economy (they have the GPA and/or the testing ability to do well). Any of those people who say they are going to law school because they couldn’t find a job, probably don’t have the people skills/ networking skills to get a job even with a law degree (because statistically, 50% of them will be at or below the median).

Have you read any of the employment threads on this forum? Are you seriously trying to say that unemployed t14 grads didn't get jobs because they don't have people skills? Do you understand the concepts of bidding, lottery and the mandatory curve? Do you know how hard it is to find a job in Chicago or in California- outside of ip?
Please note I'm talking about t14 students here, not the bottom of the barrel. What about the top20 -25 grads- do you think they don't network enough? Or have terrible personalities?

The reality is that there are not enough jobs, biglaw or otherwise, for all the qualified applicants.

[Tom Joad]

I would wager GPA is? Anecdotal, but I don’t know a single person with a 3.0+ from any degree (including opera performance, English, political science, graphic design) that does not have a professional job making 40k+, except for the people narrowing their search to nitch jobs/graduate schools (ta’s getting masters, English grads trying to get publishing jobs, HRM majors trying to find work in Vegas, etc.)

Are you from 1950?

[laxbrah420]

I know a select few accounting majors who started at 6 figures before bonus (but 2 of the three had very connected families, and the third was the caddie of a very connected person who set him up with the job post-grad) But that is an advance degree (took 5 years at Mizzou, but I know other schools it can take 6) and passing the CPA is a bitch.

I think what LaxBrah is saying, is that law school is no different from undergraduate in terms of job prospects. The people who go to t-14 schools (or even any t1 school IMO) could probably find a job that pays 40k+ even in this economy (they have the GPA and/or the testing ability to do well). Any of those people who say they are going to law school because they couldn’t find a job, probably don’t have the people skills/ networking skills to get a job even with a law degree (because statistically, 50% of them will be at or below the median).

Have you read any of the employment threads on this forum? Are you seriously trying to say that unemployed t14 grads didn't get jobs because they don't have people skills? Do you understand the concepts of bidding, lottery and the mandatory curve? Do you know how hard it is to find a job in Chicago or in California- outside of ip?
Please note I'm talking about t14 students here, not the bottom of the barrel. What about the top20 -25 grads- do you think they don't network enough? Or have terrible personalities?

The reality is that there are not enough jobs, biglaw or otherwise, for all the qualified applicants.

This conversation is about opportunity costs as introduced by some jabroni named flcath (read: getting a job out of undergrad)

[20130312]

I would wager GPA is? Anecdotal, but I don’t know a single person with a 3.0+ from any degree (including opera performance, English, political science, graphic design) that does not have a professional job making 40k+, except for the people narrowing their search to nitch jobs/graduate schools (ta’s getting masters, English grads trying to get publishing jobs, HRM majors trying to find work in Vegas, etc.)

I'm starting to think this ingoodfaith guy was a social work major and somehow believes that only gender and family standing is a good predictor of employment

You'd be surprised if I told you what I do.

Also, would be curious to know where you live in the country that every person with a 3.0 GPA regardless of degree who wants a $40k+ job can get one, considering I have a friend (anecdotal, but so was yours) who graduated HYP with above a 3.0 and yet cannot find a job.

[Nelson]

I would wager GPA is? Anecdotal, but I don’t know a single person with a 3.0+ from any degree (including opera performance, English, political science, graphic design) that does not have a professional job making 40k+, except for the people narrowing their search to nitch jobs/graduate schools (ta’s getting masters, English grads trying to get publishing jobs, HRM majors trying to find work in Vegas, etc.)

I'm starting to think this ingoodfaith guy was a social work major and somehow believes that only gender and family standing is a good predictor of employment

You'd be surprised if I told you what I do.

Also, would be curious to know where you live in the country that every person with a 3.0 GPA regardless of degree who wants a $40k+ job can get one, considering I have a friend (anecdotal, but so was yours) who graduated HYP with above a 3.0 and yet cannot find a job.

+ freaking 1.

I've got plenty of anecdotes of humanities majors from great undergrads who won't see the other side of 40k until they see the other side of 30 if they stay in their current fields.

[09042014]

I would wager GPA is? Anecdotal, but I don’t know a single person with a 3.0+ from any degree (including opera performance, English, political science, graphic design) that does not have a professional job making 40k+, except for the people narrowing their search to nitch jobs/graduate schools (ta’s getting masters, English grads trying to get publishing jobs, HRM majors trying to find work in Vegas, etc.)

Are you from 1950?

Or Man-fucking-hattan where 40K is what baristas make?

[BruceWayne]

I was actually just respond to this trash:

With opportunity costs close to zero for the type of people we're talking about (kid who gets big $$$ at T30 or sticker at T10-14 = likely to be unemployed if he weren't in LS)

Someone who gets sticker t14 is a ~3.6/170 right? That's such bullshit to say that "type" of person is "likely to be unemployed" if not LS.

What are you talking about? He's totally correct for many people. I had a poor gpa in undergrad (at an average undergrad) but did well on the LSAT; there was no way in hell I was getting a 40K+ a year job straight out of college. I'm at a top 10 law school.

I did muster up some offers for 100% commission and one for a temporary min wage salary (7 something an hour) that would convert to 60 percent commission after 9 months. Most of my class mates ended up in my situation, unemployed, or with jobs paying 28-35K if they were lucky(well in fairness I do know a good bit who got TFA and make 40K from that). I was also able to work part time retail. Now I have a summer offer at a firm. Thank God for law school. For me it was a no brainer; I had an opportunity cost of about a -5.

[Dr. Filth]

I'm rocking a solid 3.02 degree GPA with a double poly sci and philosophy, and I'm about to graduate in May. Where is my 40k job?

[STLMizzou]

Have you read any of the employment threads on this forum? Are you seriously trying to say that unemployed t14 grads didn't get jobs because they don't have people skills? Do you understand the concepts of bidding, lottery and the mandatory curve? Do you know how hard it is to find a job in Chicago or in California- outside of ip?
Please note I'm talking about t14 students here, not the bottom of the barrel. What about the top20 -25 grads- do you think they don't network enough? Or have terrible personalities?

The reality is that there are not enough jobs, biglaw or otherwise, for all the qualified applicants.

1. I work as a clerk for a law firm in Chicago. I am very aware of the current legal environment.
2. Yes, I understand how legal employment works. See above mention of being employed by a law firm right now.
3. I am a firm believer in “it’s not about what you know, it’s about who you know.” I believe it because I was roommates with a person who was median at Mizzou and met a partner of a defense litigation boutique at a bar. He now works at that firm making fairly good money (not big-law money, but close). I have been explicitly told at the firm I am at now that if I get median at Illinois/peer school that I have a job waiting for me.

I come from a middle class family, but my parents didn’t give me anything for school. I paid for it all myself through grants/ working the door at a bar and working my way up to bartender. I got a job in the field I wanted to work in out of college with an English and Political Science degree and a 3.0 GPA. (granted, I am only making 15 an hour, but I had an offer for a job working for the university starting at 38 plus benefits)

ETA: There is a big difference between “can’t find a job” and “can’t find a job that I don’t feel is below me/ can’t find a job good enough to pay off the debt I willingly chose to put myself into”

[dixiecupdrinking]

1. I work as a clerk for a law firm in Chicago. I am very aware of the current legal environment.
2. Yes, I understand how legal employment works. See above mention of being employed by a law firm right now.

Dude. You have a lot to learn.
It is very difficult for many new JDs to find any job practicing law. True of a number of T14 grads, and many, many grads of lower ranked schools.

[FlightoftheEarls]

1. I work as a clerk for a law firm in Chicago. I am very aware of the current legal environment.
2. Yes, I understand how legal employment works. See above mention of being employed by a law firm right now.

I haven't read anything in this thread, but it's really going to start pissing me right off if every law firm paralegal or administrative assistant on these boards begins pretending like he or she is an authoritative experts on the legal hiring market.

[moneybagsphd]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

[Simplicity]

Ding Ding,looks like we've got someone who has a grasp on reality. And Ibanking is so out of reach for most people it's not even funny. If you didn't choose to go to an elite school when you were 17 (and then do well at said elite school at that) you're out of luck.

False.

Not to mention the QOL is even worse than law firm work and you really ARE restricted to working in NYC, as opposed to just more likely to work there if you are going for biglaw.

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.

[Simplicity]

I know a select few accounting majors who started at 6 figures before bonus (but 2 of the three had very connected families, and the third was the caddie of a very connected person who set him up with the job post-grad) But that is an advance degree (took 5 years at Mizzou, but I know other schools it can take 6) and passing the CPA is a bitch.

I sincerely doubt they're doing anything related to accounting.

[STLMizzou]

1. I work as a clerk for a law firm in Chicago. I am very aware of the current legal environment.
2. Yes, I understand how legal employment works. See above mention of being employed by a law firm right now.

I haven't read anything in this thread, but it's really going to start pissing me right off if every law firm paralegal or administrative assistant on these boards begins pretending like he or she is an authoritative experts on the legal hiring market.

First: not claiming to be an expert, just also not as ignorant as most 0L’s. I would wager I know as much, if not more, than most 1L’s about the current legal hiring environment in Chicago.

Second: Yes, because a person working with young lawyers every day, and spending every day at the courthouse doing the same work many current law school students are doing, knows nothing about legal employment.

ETA: Correct. Their degrees are in accounting, but they do not fill out taxes all day. They are just examples I know of (my fraternity was mostly either engineering or accounting majors, so most the guys I stay in touch with were one of those 2 majors)

[moneybagsphd]

Not to mention the QOL is even worse than law firm work and you really ARE restricted to working in NYC, as opposed to just more likely to work there if you are going for biglaw.

It depends where you work. My friend doing IB in New York City worked 120 hours last week and pretty much hates life; however, my friend in Dallas says he usually works about 80 hour weeks.

I have no desire to do IB, but a few jobs are definitely out there.

ibanking is a miserable fucking job.

[IAFG]

It's funny how 0Ls are so much more confident in the strength of their connections than 2Ls who are actually having to call those favors in.

[laxbrah420]

I'm rocking a solid 3.02 degree GPA with a double poly sci and philosophy, and I'm about to graduate in May. Where is my 40k job?

1. go spurs
2. romney campaign? I have no idea what people who take those majors usually do? i suppose you have zero opportunity cost now b/c you chose those majors. but choosing those majors was surely quite costly

[Mr. Somebody]

1. I work as a clerk for a law firm in Chicago. I am very aware of the current legal environment.
2. Yes, I understand how legal employment works. See above mention of being employed by a law firm right now.

I haven't read anything in this thread, but it's really going to start pissing me right off if every law firm paralegal or administrative assistant on these boards begins pretending like he or she is an authoritative experts on the legal hiring market.

First: not claiming to be an expert, just also not as ignorant as most 0L’s. I would wager I know as much, if not more, than most 1L’s about the current legal hiring environment in Chicago.

Second: Yes, because a person working with young lawyers every day, and spending every day at the courthouse doing the same work many current law school students are doing, knows nothing about legal employment.

Lol, you are really talking up your position unnecessary, I have the same job as you and I had to laugh when I read this..... The most common type of work experience for entering law students in either paralegal or teaching. I'm also a paralegal and I don't feel like my experience gives me better insight than http://www.lawschooltransparency.com does. If anything, working at a firm will bias your perspective. Anecdotes should never be relied upon over statistics. And honestly, nothing else you said in that post was that helpful. Networking doesn't make a difference if the demand for lawyers isn't there.

[snehpets]

Just because someone is willing to take a job "beneath them" like at Mcdonalds or whatever doesn't mean they're making 40k a year. I live in a state with a great economy (relatively speaking), and yes, there are jobs. However, they're certainly not jobs making 40k, and I have multiple friends who are pretty much open to anything that can't find jobs at 20 or 30k a year, much less 40. They're not socially retarded and they had good GPAs. I can't imagine what it would be like if they were in a state with a truly crappy economy. It's ridiculous to claim that there are 40k a year jobs out there for anyone who wants them with a 3.0 and up.

also go mavs also again, lol at getting a paying job on a campaign straight out of school with a 3.0 and little or no relevant work experience. rick perry apparently (from what I hear, but I have no source so don't freak out and focus on this detail and tearing it apart) wasn't even paying most of his staff for a while (maybe still isn't, idk). Even a successful campaign like Romney isn't going to hire people with no experience when he can get volunteers for free.

[laxbrah420]

You're thinking wrong; let me give you a more realistic list of schools: Ohio State, Tennessee, Rutgers, Seton Hall, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Temple, Michigan State, UC Irvine, George Mason, Auburn, Fresno State, Vilianova, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Georgia State, etc.

Trolling? UC Irvine is the only top-50 school on your list. Why not throw in Davis, Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz, and Merced too? Anyone familiar with the hierarchy of the UC system knows that Berkeley>UCLA>>UCSD>UCI/UCSB/UCD>UCSC>>>>UC Merced

He was responding to my hypothesis that the recent undergrads unable to find jobs post graduation all went to suny purchase.
I'm fairly sure that florida and uga are in there too.

[laxbrah420]

Anecdotes should never be relied upon over statistics.

Please let me know which statistic of yours sheds light on job hunting ability

[Mr. Somebody]

Just because someone is willing to take a job "beneath them" like at Mcdonalds or whatever doesn't mean they're making 40k a year. I live in a state with a great economy (relatively speaking), and yes, there are jobs. However, they're certainly not jobs making 40k, and I have multiple friends who are pretty much open to anything that can't find jobs at 20 or 30k a year, much less 40. They're not socially retarded and they had good GPAs. I can't imagine what it would be like if they were in a state with a truly crappy economy. It's ridiculous to claim that there are 40k a year jobs out there for anyone who wants them with a 3.0 and up.

also go mavs also again, lol at getting a paying job on a campaign straight out of school with a 3.0 and little or no relevant work experience. rick perry wasn't even paying most of his staff for a while (maybe still isn't, idk). Even a successful campaign like Romney isn't going to hire people with no experience when he can get volunteers for free.

This is overstating it. I can't speak for the Republican side, but the Democrats WILL hire people for field staff out of college if you at least have some filler on your resume and are good with people. It's not that hard to get one of these jobs if you are willing to relocate because you're basically sitting around making phone calls all day and working close to big law hours for very little pay.

[Mr. Somebody]

Anecdotes should never be relied upon over statistics.

Please let me know which statistic of yours sheds light on job hunting ability

Job hunting ability doesn't matter if there are no jobs. Isn't that the point of this thread?