New Mexican Law Forum

[firemed]

Also, AZ and NM both have their high points, but FWIW, I'd take NM over AZ any day. The only exception might be Flagstaff. It's an amazing little town, the only thing that sucks is that there isn't really much there for lawyers to do, but it's beautiful.

PHX is the bigger city than ABQ. It's got pro sports teams, and generally more to do. There's no arguing that point. But it's also (to my way of thinking) just ugly. It's like a dingier LA without the beach. ABQ on the other hand is cheap as hell, and surprisingly nice. Most people who haven't spent time there don't realize it, but that city is a blast, and you can buy shockingly decent houses for less than $200,000.

Plus Phoenix is just too fucking hot. ABQ gets cold in the winter, but I'll take snow over 120-degree summers.

+ a million.

AZ has some very nice small towns and I love the mountains there, but the larger cities are pretty blah. It depends on what you are looking for. ABQ is definitely not the type of city for someone looking for some sort of cosmopolitan lifestyle, which would be about the only draw AZ has over NM in my opinion.

Oh and even in the winter (besides this last one) when its cold it isn't that bad. Lows in the 20's at night, but up in the 40's and 50's during the day.

There may be a smattering of 575 in ABQ now, but everyone there knows whats up when you are referring to the 505

575 is for all the plebes... the burque still haz the 505.

[Naked Dude]

Yeah I definitely agree with SBL, although I've never been to Flagstaff. I went through some rural as hell areas in NM (most notably Cimarron), and it is just the most heartbreakingly beautiful state I've driven through (parts of Colorado, not eastern, are a close second).

[scrowell]

Also, AZ and NM both have their high points, but FWIW, I'd take NM over AZ any day. The only exception might be Flagstaff. It's an amazing little town, the only thing that sucks is that there isn't really much there for lawyers to do, but it's beautiful.

PHX is the bigger city than ABQ. It's got pro sports teams, and generally more to do. There's no arguing that point. But it's also (to my way of thinking) just ugly. It's like a dingier LA without the beach. ABQ on the other hand is cheap as hell, and surprisingly nice. Most people who haven't spent time there don't realize it, but that city is a blast, and you can buy shockingly decent houses for less than $200,000.

Plus Phoenix is just too fucking hot. ABQ gets cold in the winter, but I'll take snow over 120-degree summers.

+ a million.

AZ has some very nice small towns and I love the mountains there, but the larger cities are pretty blah. It depends on what you are looking for. ABQ is definitely not the type of city for someone looking for some sort of cosmopolitan lifestyle, which would be about the only draw AZ has over NM in my opinion.

Oh and even in the winter (besides this last one) when its cold it isn't that bad. Lows in the 20's at night, but up in the 40's and 50's during the day.

There may be a smattering of 575 in ABQ now, but everyone there knows whats up when you are referring to the 505

Why have I been wasting my life in the cold?

[BeautifulSW]

Arizona and New Mexico are very different culturally. Arizona is turing into a Mad Tea Party while New Mexico (I like to say) is the only Latin American "State". I used to think I could be happy in either but in the last few years, AZ has gotten so hate-filled and nutso that I avoid even visiting the State.

One theory for the difference is that when Kearney got here, N.Mex. already had a significant Mexican presence whereas European-Americans didn't begin to populate Arizona until just after the Civil War when large numbers of ex-Confederates moved there from the Old South.

This won't last. The disease will eventually run its course. And twenty years ago, I would have taken a job in Flagstaff without a moment's pause. And Tucson really isn't as looney toons as Maricopa County.

[firemed]

I will agree there is something remarkably beautiful about the Southwest. New Mexico seems to have the biggest chunk of it. There is something amazing here about the light, the scenery, the people, that you simply cannot find anywhere else.

TBF though there are very beautiful places in West Texas, Colorado, Utah, Arizona and Nevada. This whole region is special.

[BeautifulSW]

Oh, Arizona has natural beauty in great big gobs. The Vermillion Cliffs, Painted Desert, Black Canyon, Sonoran Desert, White Mountains, Superstitions, and the vast expanse of the Grand Canyon complex. But much of that beauty is remote and surprisingly hard to get to. The whole North Rim is actually CLOSED half the year due to impassable snows. The southern deserts are equally harsh during the summer heat.

New Mexico is also very beautiful but the beauty is more human sized. And often more human sourced as well. Our ancient Pueblos and Spanish mission churches, our plazas and dances and old customs are enchanting even if you aren't a Catholic. Of course, we also have the Southern Rockies with peaks into the thirteen thousands, not Colorado but definitely impressive. And most of the State can be reached during most of the year.

Gosh! No WONDER I still live here!

[BeautifulSW]

Okay...this thread has really made me reflect...thanks, friends, for the opportunity.

If I were coming out of CUNY with $50,000 or less in student loans...I'd take eventually take both the Arizona and New Mexico Bar exams...but...Arizona first. Yes, I think so. The State is in a hard place right now, economically, politically, and spiritually. But I have a lot of friends in the Tucson area. They aren't starving nor are they hate-filled wackos nor are they all Democrats or Republicans. Arizona cannot fail in the long run. There's just too much there.

Second point: I would NOT take any Northeastern Corridor Bar exam. Wouldn't bother with it. Wouldn't even try to interview out there. There are JUST TOO MANY LAWYERS period and WAAAAY too many lawyers from highly ranked schools for the average law grad to compete. You might succeed, anything's possible, but why mess with it? Just come on out here; there's work and we'd love to have you.

[firemed]

Okay...this thread has really made me reflect...thanks, friends, for the opportunity.

If I were coming out of CUNY with $50,000 or less in student loans...I'd take eventually take both the Arizona and New Mexico Bar exams...but...Arizona first. Yes, I think so. The State is in a hard place right now, economically, politically, and spiritually. But I have a lot of friends in the Tucson area. They aren't starving nor are they hate-filled wackos nor are they all Democrats or Republicans. Arizona cannot fail in the long run. There's just too much there.

Second point: I would NOT take any Northeastern Corridor Bar exam. Wouldn't bother with it. Wouldn't even try to interview out there. There are JUST TOO MANY LAWYERS period and WAAAAY too many lawyers from highly ranked schools for the average law grad to compete. You might succeed, anything's possible, but why mess with it? Just come on out here; there's work and we'd love to have you.

Would you say it might be worthwhile for me to take both NM and Texas Bar exams during the year after graduation?

[BeautifulSW]

A very tentative "No." there is opportunity in West Texas but there are a lot of Texas law schools making lots of new JDs. But in three years, who knows?

[20160810]

Okay...this thread has really made me reflect...thanks, friends, for the opportunity.

If I were coming out of CUNY with $50,000 or less in student loans...I'd take eventually take both the Arizona and New Mexico Bar exams...but...Arizona first. Yes, I think so. The State is in a hard place right now, economically, politically, and spiritually. But I have a lot of friends in the Tucson area. They aren't starving nor are they hate-filled wackos nor are they all Democrats or Republicans. Arizona cannot fail in the long run. There's just too much there.

Second point: I would NOT take any Northeastern Corridor Bar exam. Wouldn't bother with it. Wouldn't even try to interview out there. There are JUST TOO MANY LAWYERS period and WAAAAY too many lawyers from highly ranked schools for the average law grad to compete. You might succeed, anything's possible, but why mess with it? Just come on out here; there's work and we'd love to have you.

Would you say it might be worthwhile for me to take both NM and Texas Bar exams during the year after graduation?

Ideally you should have some idea where you're going to be working post-2L, if not through a formal SA program than at least through 2 years of interning and networking efforts. So I'd say no. One or the other. If you're completely at a loss, I'd pick TX, just because it's such a vast market relative to NM.

[dr123]

Two additional notes:

-Legal Aid in New Mexico is in a severe budget crisis right now. That doesn't mean, however, that they don't still hire into remote locations from time to time. The state, too, has a hiring "freeze" in place but the freeze is waived for hiring into remote or difficult-to-fill lawyer jobs.

-For the sake of completeness, I should add to my earlier observation that Texas Tech is the standard "safety" school for N.Mex. 0Ls. The other safety school is Denver University. I wouldn't go to DU at sticker. It's just too expensive for the N.Mex. legal employment market to support. But DU is (I'm told) pretty generous in providing support to especially desirable applicants so I would not fail to apply there and see what's on offer. A full ride at DU would be better than in-state at Texas Tech or non-resident at UNM. Maybe better even than in-state at UNM.

Getting an ejw fellowship is prolly your best bet to break into legal aid in rural areas. There's no guarantee of an offer once you finish up the fellowship though

[scrowell]

Okay...this thread has really made me reflect...thanks, friends, for the opportunity.

If I were coming out of CUNY with $50,000 or less in student loans...I'd take eventually take both the Arizona and New Mexico Bar exams...but...Arizona first. Yes, I think so. The State is in a hard place right now, economically, politically, and spiritually. But I have a lot of friends in the Tucson area. They aren't starving nor are they hate-filled wackos nor are they all Democrats or Republicans. Arizona cannot fail in the long run. There's just too much there.

Second point: I would NOT take any Northeastern Corridor Bar exam. Wouldn't bother with it. Wouldn't even try to interview out there. There are JUST TOO MANY LAWYERS period and WAAAAY too many lawyers from highly ranked schools for the average law grad to compete. You might succeed, anything's possible, but why mess with it? Just come on out here; there's work and we'd love to have you.

Awesome, thanks for the advice. I'm definitely planning to take this route when I graduate. Regardless of the difficulties I would potentially have up here, I'm not even really interested in spending the rest of my working life in NY/MA/the northeast in general, so I agree, there's no sense in wasting effort when I could be working towards something more appealing, and probably more attainable. Just one question: why AZ before NM? Do you think there are there more opportunities there?

dr123: Thanks for the tip, I've never heard of ejw fellowships, but I'll look into it!

[dr123]

http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/post-g ... ellowships

Legal aid has been hit hard by budget cuts across the board and (most) are not able to hire more staff attorneys cause they can barely afford to keep on the people they already have. Pretty much the only new grads (many) hire are EJW fellows, pretty decent set up it's like 24k + scholarship money + housing stipend and you can get food stamps. There's a similar program for PD's too. http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/post-g ... nder-corps

[scrowell]

http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/post-g ... ellowships

Legal aid has been hit hard by budget cuts across the board and (most) are not able to hire more staff attorneys cause they can barely afford to keep on the people they already have. Pretty much the only new grads (many) hire are EJW fellows, pretty decent set up it's like 24k + scholarship money + housing stipend and you can get food stamps. There's a similar program for PD's too. http://www.equaljusticeworks.org/post-g ... nder-corps

Cool, thanks a lot for the info. This is definitely something I'd strongly consider. Their summer program looks interesting too, it's nice to see that they have some programs in NM, AZ, and West TX. Hopefully I can find something with them for the summer between 1L and 2L.

Did you or someone you know participate?

[andythefir]

As with before I will defer to the people who have actually done it, but isn’t the AZ market categorically different from the NM market? As in AZ is no easier or harder to break into than other states but NM is an entirely different beast, which is my understanding.
As someone who is looking to leave the SW I’d like to add that I would consider coming back to NM if I strike out elsewhere but I would never move to AZ. You take the parts I like out of NM (the food, the culture, the seasons) and you get AZ. Again, AZ v NM is not going to be decided in a meaningful way so can both sides agree that if you like having Ikeas and Chipotles you belong in AZ and if you like Dos Hermanos and Twisters you belong in NM?

[Veyron]

As with before I will defer to the people who have actually done it, but isn’t the AZ market categorically different from the NM market? As in AZ is no easier or harder to break into than other states but NM is an entirely different beast, which is my understanding.
As someone who is looking to leave the SW I’d like to add that I would consider coming back to NM if I strike out elsewhere but I would never move to AZ. You take the parts I like out of NM (the food, the culture, the seasons) and you get AZ. Again, AZ v NM is not going to be decided in a meaningful way so can both sides agree that if you like having Ikeas and Chipotles you belong in AZ and if you like Dos Hermanos and Twisters you belong in NM?

I can state categorically that the food in Arizona, expecially the Mexican food, is supurb. You must be confused because it ALSO has Chipotles.

You do have to dig for the native/latino culture more in Phoenix, but Tucson is full of it. On the other hand, the Phoenix area has more of what you might consider to be high culture than any other place in the southwest (museums, symphony, fine dining, etc.). Big state, lots of variety.

[firemed]

As with before I will defer to the people who have actually done it, but isn’t the AZ market categorically different from the NM market? As in AZ is no easier or harder to break into than other states but NM is an entirely different beast, which is my understanding.
As someone who is looking to leave the SW I’d like to add that I would consider coming back to NM if I strike out elsewhere but I would never move to AZ. You take the parts I like out of NM (the food, the culture, the seasons) and you get AZ. Again, AZ v NM is not going to be decided in a meaningful way so can both sides agree that if you like having Ikeas and Chipotles you belong in AZ and if you like Dos Hermanos and Twisters you belong in NM?

I can state categorically that the food in Arizona, expecially the Mexican food, is supurb. You must be confused because it ALSO has Chipotles.

You do have to dig for the native/latino culture more in Phoenix, but Tucson is full of it. On the other hand, the Phoenix area has more of what you might consider to be high culture than any other place in the southwest (museums, symphony, fine dining, small galleries and music venues, etc.), lots of variety.

This is exactly the problem. New Mexico has Mexican food... but it also has NEW MEXICAN FOOD which is 1,000,000 times better and not really found anywhere else on earth.

[andythefir]

The point I was trying to make is that the AZ experience is unique but similar to other parts of the country but NM is backwards or unique depending on your take on the state.

[Veyron]

As with before I will defer to the people who have actually done it, but isn’t the AZ market categorically different from the NM market? As in AZ is no easier or harder to break into than other states but NM is an entirely different beast, which is my understanding.
As someone who is looking to leave the SW I’d like to add that I would consider coming back to NM if I strike out elsewhere but I would never move to AZ. You take the parts I like out of NM (the food, the culture, the seasons) and you get AZ. Again, AZ v NM is not going to be decided in a meaningful way so can both sides agree that if you like having Ikeas and Chipotles you belong in AZ and if you like Dos Hermanos and Twisters you belong in NM?

I can state categorically that the food in Arizona, expecially the Mexican food, is supurb. You must be confused because it ALSO has Chipotles.

You do have to dig for the native/latino culture more in Phoenix, but Tucson is full of it. On the other hand, the Phoenix area has more of what you might consider to be high culture than any other place in the southwest (museums, symphony, fine dining, small galleries and music venues, etc.), lots of variety.

This is exactly the problem. New Mexico has Mexican food... but it also has NEW MEXICAN FOOD which is 1,000,000 times better and not really found anywhere else on earth.

New Mexican food is delicious, this is true. However, its still not worth dealing with seasons for.

[firemed]

This is exactly the problem. New Mexico has Mexican food... but it also has NEW MEXICAN FOOD which is 1,000,000 times better and not really found anywhere else on earth.

New Mexican food is delicious, this is true. However, its still not worth dealing with seasons for.

I like having seasons!

[scrowell]

I watched a video about New Mexican green chile cheeseburgers the other day. They looked absolutely delicious. There was one that was like a foot in diameter. Mmmm....

[BeautifulSW]

In New Mexico, you can get a green chile cheeseburger at McDONALDS! I am not kidding.

I noticed that you used the correct spelling, "chile". That's a very good sign. Had you spelled it "chili", I'd have told you to take your business to Texas...

And that would have been a blight on your young culinary future. Texans put...(gasp)...TOMATOES in their...umm...chili. Disgusting. A sure sign of cultural and moral decay.

Arizona Mexican food is all over the map (of course; 6 million people in that state!) but in general, it's closer to Mexican than New Mexican.

FWIW, New Mexican food is fairly close to Chihuahuan food. We tend a little hotter but the menu is very similar. OLD Mexico has dozens of cuisines from beef to shrimp and a dozen ways to prepare everything. Oaxaca alone has dozens of mole sauces whereas we have just two or three, depending on whether you consider straight red chile sauce to be a mole. Technically it is but to me, mole means "chocolate".

(edit note) I just made up a batch of vodka sauce with mushrooms and Italian seasonings...very good but not complete without a tablespoon of ground red chile. We're in New Mexico, after all...

[Veyron]

In New Mexico, you can get a green chile cheeseburger at McDONALDS! I am not kidding.

I noticed that you used the correct spelling, "chile". That's a very good sign. Had you spelled it "chili", I'd have told you to take your business to Texas...

And that would have been a blight on your young culinary future. Texans put...(gasp)...TOMATOES in their...umm...chili. Disgusting. A sure sign of cultural and moral decay.

Arizona Mexican food is all over the map (of course; 6 million people in that state!) but in general, it's closer to Mexican than New Mexican.

FWIW, New Mexican food is fairly close to Chihuahuan food. We tend a little hotter but the menu is very similar. OLD Mexico has dozens of cuisines from beef to shrimp and a dozen ways to prepare everything. Oaxaca alone has dozens of mole sauces whereas we have just two or three, depending on whether you consider straight red chile sauce to be a mole. Technically it is but to me, mole means "chocolate".

Sonora refers to the desert region, not any particular state. Therefore, the style of "Mexican" food in Arizona is actually Sonoran food. Sonora and Arizona both have strong ranching traditions and a similar growing climate which accounts for much of the shared cuisine. While this means that you can find exquisite carne assada in Arizona you can't get good mole to save your life.

[BeautifulSW]

Well, Sonora IS a state but I agree; because of a (to die for) coastline along the Sea of Cortez, Sonoran food is highy diverse. (Oh, now I am thinking about enchiladas con camarones y queso...all that cholesterol but...ohhhhh...)

[Veyron]

Well, Sonora IS a state but I agree; because of a (to die for) coastline along the Sea of Cortez, Sonoran food is highy diverse. (Oh, now I am thinking about enchiladas con camarones y queso...all that cholesterol but...ohhhhh...)

I think you miss my point, Sonora the state is named after Sonora the region. Sonoran food is the region's food and is indigenous to both Arizona and Sonora. Therefore, it is not technically "Mexican" food but rather both Mexican and American food.