Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than... Forum

[beachbum]

The most legitimate complaint about WUSTL that I hear on TLS is that our NLJ placement lags our ranking. IMO, if you want to say we're overrated, then that's a legit argument. However, I'll add two things to this: 1) we've never been much of a biglaw school, but our numbers have been trending upward relative to our peers over the past 5-10 years, and 2) we aren't the only school in the T20-30 that lags behind our NLJ placement, and the lag isn't even that great (+5). Like Attorney pointed out, plenty of our "peers" do even worse compared to their ranking, so why are we the school that gets singled out for this the most?

And if you want to criticize us for our things like our student body strength or giving out too much scholarship money, then... cool story bro?

If you can get good scholly money to go to WUSTL and it is a school that can help you accomplish your goals, consider going here. If you have cheaper/better options elsewhere, consider choosing those. Be realistic about your odds and your job prospects before coming here (or any other school for that matter). It is really as simple as that.

/thread, because it is kinda ridiculous that we've spent 5 pages on a topic that comes up over and over and over when there are plenty of other schools that we can say the same types of stuff about. Go piss on Emory or IUB or ND for a change.

Agree on your first point, and I think that definitely contributes to the anti-WUSTL trolling.

But dude, the OP asked a question and I think it's generated a pretty interesting discussion. Emory ("OCI bloodbath, incompetent career services"), IUB ("over-ranked TTT"), and ND (see Emory) get shit on a lot too. If you don't want to contribute to this discussion, no one's forcing you to be here.

[Blindmelon]

romothesavior, WUSTL gets beat on these boards because of people who make outlandish claims like WUSTL is massively better than Minnesota. US News 19-30ish are peers, a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory, UIUC, etc.

When the trolls stop trolling, TLS will back off.

[FuManChusco]

romothesavior, WUSTL gets beat on these boards because of people who make outlandish claims like WUSTL is massively better than Minnesota. US News 19-30ish are peers, a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory, UIUC, etc.

When the trolls stop trolling, TLS will back off.

Yeah, there are definitely no BU trolls on the board either... vocal minorities suck.

[Blindmelon]

romothesavior, WUSTL gets beat on these boards because of people who make outlandish claims like WUSTL is massively better than Minnesota. US News 19-30ish are peers, a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory, UIUC, etc.

When the trolls stop trolling, TLS will back off.

Yeah, there are definitely no BU trolls on the board either... vocal minorities suck.

Well, someone has to defend against BC trolls, no?

[romothesavior]

romothesavior, WUSTL gets beat on these boards because of people who make outlandish claims like WUSTL is massively better than Minnesota. US News 19-30ish are peers, a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory, UIUC, etc.

When the trolls stop trolling, TLS will back off.

No doubt, WUSTL is a peer of ND, UIUC, Emory, and I'd even say UMN. But the 19 ranking seems to hurt WUSTL around these parts because people take every possibility to knock it (especially you, blindmelon), and I often think that being in the 20s would make people get off our case.

[czelede]

If you can get good scholly money to go to WUSTL and it is a school that can help you accomplish your goals, consider going here. If you have cheaper/better options elsewhere, consider choosing those. Be realistic about your odds and your job prospects before coming here (or any other school for that matter). It is really as simple as that.

Completely agree with this.

Whether splitters split because they slacked, had medical reasons, or were in engineering programs, in the final analysis student quality of someone with a 2.5 GPA is on the lowest end of the spectrum. Plenty of other people in college were smart enough not to slack, were able to persevere through difficult circumstances or wisely take time off, or were clever enough not to pick a major that would leave them with a C+ average and the only option being law school.

Do also consider that some majors curve different than others. When you're looking at a 2.5 curve, being a C+ student puts you right at the median.

That being said, a 2.5 *cumulative* GPA generally happens because of one of the following: unsuitable field of study, medical/family/issues or extenuating circumstances, slackerdom. Except maybe at GA Tech, which I think has an even harsher curve. I also don't think many engineers go into law school because there are no other options - even in this economy, I have friends with sub 3.0s that are getting 60-70k+ (bump that another 10k if you're looking at high COL areas like Seattle/California) entry level jobs.

[jacketman03]

That being said, a 2.5 *cumulative* GPA generally happens because of one of the following: unsuitable field of study, medical/family/issues or extenuating circumstances, slackerdom. Except maybe at GA Tech, which I think has an even harsher curve. I also don't think many engineers go into law school because there are no other options - even in this economy, I have friends with sub 3.0s that are getting 60-70k+ (bump that another 10k if you're looking at high COL areas like Seattle/California) entry level jobs.

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I'm at an "engineering" school, and I honestly hate engineers with a passion. They have career fairs where jobs are being thrown at them, while us lowly Liberal Arts majors get emails to go to the Business School Career Fairs and Grad School Fairs.

[PomasThynchon]

The most legitimate complaint about WUSTL that I hear on TLS is that our NLJ placement lags our ranking. IMO, if you want to say we're overrated, then that's a legit argument. However, I'll add two things to this: 1) we've never been much of a biglaw school, but our numbers have been trending upward relative to our peers over the past 5-10 years, and 2) we aren't the only school in the T20-30 that lags behind our NLJ placement, and the lag isn't even that great (+5). Like Attorney pointed out, plenty of our "peers" do even worse compared to their ranking, so why are we the school that gets singled out for this the most?

And if you want to criticize us for our things like our student body strength or giving out too much scholarship money, then... cool story bro?

If you can get good scholly money to go to WUSTL and it is a school that can help you accomplish your goals, consider going here. If you have cheaper/better options elsewhere, consider choosing those. Be realistic about your odds and your job prospects before coming here (or any other school for that matter). It is really as simple as that.

/thread, because it is kinda ridiculous that we've spent 5 pages on a topic that comes up over and over and over when there are plenty of other schools that we can say the same types of stuff about. Go piss on Emory or IUB or ND for a change.

From looking at "where students go" on the Wash U website, I don't know if I should be impressed at how much you guys disperse. I think 25% stay in the region, but you guys scatter. I used to say sending 8-10% of a Midwest/East coast class (you guys and BU) is impressive, but that could be people with ties already. No trolling, just a wide-eyed 0L here asking about WUSTL. Do you find that the relatively good (top third or so) students are able to go to the regions they want-West, NY, DC, or is the even dispersement a result of students returning to where they came from? The normal advice of "go where you want to end up" doesn't apply to me--I like NY but I don't necessarily want to live there forever.

[Attorney]

Blindmelon, you still can't do math huh. I guess you missed the part where I addressed your argument before you made it?

And I like the part where someone else who can't do math says "lulz" or "I lol'd" each time to reinforce the stereotype that law students are bad at math but like to comment on it without commenting.

EDIT: I'll add that your response did not address the ordinal rankings that you were "responding" to but rather rehashed your inability to perform basic math functions. Awesome. You win the Interwebz!

Perhaps you're just bad at math. The difference between 10% and 1% is far larger than the difference between 100% and 91%. Start with that concept, and then move forward.

For the math-challenged who are attending law school (this is not especially surprising I suppose), WUSTL has 50% better placement than Minnesota (.275/.194 = ~1.5). To get that much better than WUSTL, you have to go up to Cornell and Georgetown (.413/.275 = ~1.5). This is just Big Law placement of course, but the reason I'm using those numbers is that TLS is incredibly Big Law obsessed.

To drive the point home, here are some schools' 19-30 US News rankings versus their ordinal Big Law placement rankings.

WUSTL 19/24 (-5)
Minnesota 22/35 (-13)
Indiana 27/50+ (-23)
UC Davis 28/39 (-11)
UNC 28/48 (-20)

It seems a bit ignorant to say WUSTL's placement ranking is so much worse than its USN ranking, when other schools ranked right behind it appear to "game the rankings" to a much larger extent.

BC/BU Biglaw Placement: 34.6%
WUSTL: 27.5%
Minnesota 19.4%.

Difference between BU/BC and WUSTL - BU/BC up by 7.1%.
Difference between WUSTL and Minnesota - 8.1%.

So 8.1% difference makes WUSTL massively better than Minnesota, but 7.1% difference is only slight?

Also, using your "basic math", BU/BC place 26% better than WUSTL! WOWZA!!! So you're telling me, BU/BC >>>> WUSTL >>>>>> Minnesota?

I agree!

[PomasThynchon]

That being said, a 2.5 *cumulative* GPA generally happens because of one of the following: unsuitable field of study, medical/family/issues or extenuating circumstances, slackerdom. Except maybe at GA Tech, which I think has an even harsher curve. I also don't think many engineers go into law school because there are no other options - even in this economy, I have friends with sub 3.0s that are getting 60-70k+ (bump that another 10k if you're looking at high COL areas like Seattle/California) entry level jobs.

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I'm at an "engineering" school, and I honestly hate engineers with a passion. They have career fairs where jobs are being thrown at them, while us lowly Liberal Arts majors get emails to go to the Business School Career Fairs and Grad School Fairs.

For real though. I'm at a school with a huge business/engineering school. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to hear my friends say, in September, "Got an offer from Citibank." or "Just got an offer from AMD" or Lockheed or what have you. God bless 'em for having a marketable major, Lord knows I'm little more than a failed premed, polisci shithead, but there is a sense of coulda woulda shoulda there. I think every school takes as given that the lib arts majors will "have" to go on to some form of graduate/professional school. If I had to do college over, I think I'd suck it up and do Finance. I'd like to do EE or something similarly marketable, but my math skills are atrocious.

[Attorney]

romothesavior, WUSTL gets beat on these boards because of people who make outlandish claims like WUSTL is massively better than Minnesota.

I never claimed any such thing about the schools in general, only BL placement. Specifically I claimed #19 WUSTL's Big Law placement is nearly 50% better (okay, more like 41% this year) than #22 Minnesota's and you "countered" that BC's is 25% better than WUSTL's. Completely ignoring the fact that WUSTL and Minnesota are in overlapping markes while BC/BU are in BosWash, a point I had already addressed before you even started chiming in with your math fails.

[seriously????]

I'm a OL, but based on my research, for biglaw, you have to be at the tip top to go where you want (unless you want to go to NY, Chi, or DC, but still pretty high). If you already have ties, maybe top 20% to a third. And you probably have more mobility if you're an IP guy, or a PhD in a hard science, or MBA in business.
Do current WUSTL'ers agree that a top third status with ties, or a top 20% without ties can land someone midlaw in their targeted location with proper networking?

[FuManChusco]

I'm a OL, but based on my research, for biglaw, you have to be at the tip top to go where you want (unless you want to go to NY, Chi, or DC, but still pretty high). If you already have ties, maybe top 20% to a third. And you probably have more mobility if you're an IP guy, or a PhD in a hard science, or MBA in business.
Do current WUSTL'ers agree that a top third status with ties, or a top 20% without ties can land someone midlaw in their targeted location with proper networking?

Probably but still risky. Most people would probably have better options.

[Attorney]

a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory

Orrly? Citation needed.

In other news, ND and Emory are also prestigious undergrad schools. So it's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see specific examples of people saying these things. I'd hate to assume you're just being an idiot and making things up.

[romothesavior]

I'm a OL, but based on my research, for biglaw, you have to be at the tip top to go where you want (unless you want to go to NY, Chi, or DC, but still pretty high). If you already have ties, maybe top 20% to a third. And you probably have more mobility if you're an IP guy, or a PhD in a hard science, or MBA in business.
Do current WUSTL'ers agree that a top third status with ties, or a top 20% without ties can land someone midlaw in their targeted location with proper networking?

I'm only a 1L, so I don't know anything for certain. From what I can gather (and these are general, rough estimates), top 20-25% will probably get you some interviews, but you are far from safe. Top 1/3 might even do it if you have good WE or connections, and I've heard of people down to median getting NLJ 250 jobs (but they are a rare, rare exception).

I'd say anything outside top 10-15% is going to mean you have to interview really well to get a job out of OCI. ITE has made it so that few people at a school like WUSTL are "safe." But if you're top 20%, you'll be in a good place to get interviews and hopefully give yourself a real shot at an NLJ 250 job.

[Blindmelon]

a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory

Orrly? Citation needed.

In other news, ND and Emory are also prestigious undergrad schools. So it's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see specific examples of people saying these things. I'd hate to assume you're just being an idiot and making things up.

I honestly don't care as I don't have a pony in this race (I'm not a 0L and couldn't care less about who is ranked where). I only came here because your massively placing better was pretty stupid.

And I admit, I bash WUSTL and Emory more than I should. At least we can all agree that US News is a POS, and having Fordham/BC way off from WUSTL at 19 is pretty ridiculous.

[romothesavior]

And I admit, I bash WUSTL and Emory more than I should.

Yes you do.

And I can't think of a situation where I would ever go to Fordham. Underrated? Yes. Good biglaw placement? Yes. But it is insanely expensive living in NYC and they are incredibly stingy with scholarships. If you've got the kind of numbers to pull in good dough from Fordham, you can probably get into Cornell or BU/BC with a really big scholarship.

[stratocophic]

a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory

Orrly? Citation needed.

In other news, ND and Emory are also prestigious undergrad schools. So it's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see specific examples of people saying these things. I'd hate to assume you're just being an idiot and making things up.

I honestly don't care as I don't have a pony in this race (I'm not a 0L and couldn't care less about who is ranked where). I only came here because your massively placing better was pretty stupid.

And I admit, I bash WUSTL and Emory more than I should. At least we can all agree that US News is a POS, and having Fordham/BC way off from WUSTL at 19 is pretty ridiculous.

[Verity]

a lot of WUSTL people like to claim superiority because of their "T20" status or UGrad "prestige", when its no question a peer of ND, Emory

Orrly? Citation needed.

In other news, ND and Emory are also prestigious undergrad schools. So it's not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to see specific examples of people saying these things. I'd hate to assume you're just being an idiot and making things up.

I honestly don't care as I don't have a pony in this race (I'm not a 0L and couldn't care less about who is ranked where). I only came here because your massively placing better was pretty stupid.

And I admit, I bash WUSTL and Emory more than I should. At least we can all agree that US News is a POS, and having Fordham/BC way off from WUSTL at 19 is pretty ridiculous.

I hope I see you in court one day. I'll bring my Staples "That Was Easy" button.

[Blindmelon]

I hope I see you in court one day. I'll bring my Staples "That Was Easy" button.

Um. You realize this is an online forum right? Well, I'm glad whatever I said gave you some ounce of pleasure, sounds like you need it.

[BrianGriffintheDog]

gotta compete with other prestigious schools (Chicago U & NW) for the same market (Chicago)

[JCougar]

The most legitimate complaint about WUSTL that I hear on TLS is that our NLJ placement lags our ranking. IMO, if you want to say we're overrated, then that's a legit argument. However, I'll add two things to this: 1) we've never been much of a biglaw school, but our numbers have been trending upward relative to our peers over the past 5-10 years, and 2) we aren't the only school in the T20-30 that lags behind our NLJ placement, and the lag isn't even that great (+5). Like Attorney pointed out, plenty of our "peers" do even worse compared to their ranking, so why are we the school that gets singled out for this the most?

And if you want to criticize us for our things like our student body strength or giving out too much scholarship money, then... cool story bro?

If you can get good scholly money to go to WUSTL and it is a school that can help you accomplish your goals, consider going here. If you have cheaper/better options elsewhere, consider choosing those. Be realistic about your odds and your job prospects before coming here (or any other school for that matter). It is really as simple as that.

/thread, because it is kinda ridiculous that we've spent 5 pages on a topic that comes up over and over and over when there are plenty of other schools that we can say the same types of stuff about. Go piss on Emory or IUB or ND for a change.

From looking at "where students go" on the Wash U website, I don't know if I should be impressed at how much you guys disperse. I think 25% stay in the region, but you guys scatter. I used to say sending 8-10% of a Midwest/East coast class (you guys and BU) is impressive, but that could be people with ties already. No trolling, just a wide-eyed 0L here asking about WUSTL. Do you find that the relatively good (top third or so) students are able to go to the regions they want-West, NY, DC, or is the even dispersement a result of students returning to where they came from? The normal advice of "go where you want to end up" doesn't apply to me--I like NY but I don't necessarily want to live there forever.

The only schools that really let you "go where you want" are the T10, and even then, you need good grades. Even for the top schools, a lot of their geographic dispersion is due to them drawing a national student body, and people returning from whence the came. Most firms themselves don't want to hire people that have no ties to the area, because those people are far more likely to leave...no matter what school you went to. It's highly unprofitable for big firms to hire new associates that leave after three years. The only way that changes is if your credentials are so awesome the firms don't care if you leave, and they can bill you at a higher rate and actually make a profit off of you after your first year or so. And to have these kinds of credentials, you need law review from a T10.

[bk1]

It's highly unprofitable for big firms to hire new associates that leave after three years.

What? Isn't their hiring model based on the fact that new associates leave after several years?

[Attorney]

It's highly unprofitable for big firms to hire new associates that leave after three years.

What? Isn't their hiring model based on the fact that new associates leave after several years?

No.

[bk1]

No.

Nice ninja edit to punctuate your statement.

I was under the impression that most people left biglaw after several years, is this not the case? I mean I understand that ideally they would want to keep people but isn't the reality that a lot of people get burned out pretty quickly?