ABA actually warns against law school Forum

[D. H2Oman]

Have you ever considered that your abrasive "zomg pls pity me" attitude might have more to do with your unemployment than your degree?

I'm not looking for pity at all. I just have trouble figuring out why people who have decent jobs want to go to LS ITE. The only reason I'm even considering LS is that I haven't been able to find a job that I'm happy with. And yes I was being abrasive - although so were you - and I'll stop now.

Oh sorry, edit: If you had any kind of decent "business" job and a semblance of common sense, you wouldn't be considering law school... HTH

Fixed for applicability

[observationalist]

Adding to OP's post, the ABA's Accreditation Committee is meeting again next week in San Francisco, where they'll be discussing revisions to the accreditation standards put forth by a special subcommittee on Standard 509 (which defines what's considered 'basic consumer information'). Right now, all the ABA considers 'basic' in terms of job prospects are the percent employed in any job (including bartending) 9 months out, and the bar passage rates... that's it. No salary reporting requirement, no disclosure of how many people got jobs that required a JD, no disclosure of how many are part-time/full-time, etc etc. We're hoping the subcommittee puts forth some recommendations that are worth examining further, and if they do there's a good chance the new Standard 509 could be finalized in under a year. This would mean law schools would need to start disclosing more information about their graduates starting with the Class of 2011, beginning in 2012.

None of this will help those of you already in school, or those of you trying to figure out whether or not to attend a particular law school this cycle. Only a handful of law schools are currently in the practice of disclosing employer lists for a majority of graduates, while the rest center their promotional materials around inflated median salary statistics and the impression that private sector jobs are synonymous with private practice jobs. Unfortunately they're not.

For prospectives, if you want to know what the level of risk actually is at the schools you're considering, you should contact the career services office and ask to see employer lists for the entire Class of 2010. They have the information and they should disclose it if you are trying to figure out whether or not their JD program is worth three years of your time and debt. If they respond saying they don't have the information, tell them you can wait until next month when they report it to NALP and USNews. If they tell you they can't disclose the information because of privacy concerns, tell them you're happy just to see a list of everyone who got an associate position at a law firm (which is public information most of the time, so no privacy concerns). You also need to know how many people reported salaries and what the median/25/75ths were for the Class of 2010. If nothing else, you need an actual number of how many graduates got a JD-required position at a law firm. FYI this is probably the direction the ABA will be taking since so many schools have claimed they can't infringe upon the privacy rights of their down and out graduates. Good hunting.

[r6_philly]

There are A LOT of ex-consultants on these boards.

Well I am not, the same kind of, consultant.

I worked on development contracts. For a time most application/software development had a initial development stage where consultants are hired to complete, and in-house positions are created to maintain the apps at a less rate later. If you don't mind the short gaps and going on interviews a lot, you will like the money much more. It was reasonable to make $60-$100/hr for 2-3 month projects and I didn't even have a B.S. yet back then.

I took a part-time job so I can also work on small contracts and go to school full time right now, it's a calculated move to make some investments and get paid bigger after law school.

[ClayDavis]

I make over 60k part-time. I am going to law school. HTH

Oh sorry, edit: If you had any kind of decent "business" job and a semblance of common sense, you wouldn't be considering law school... HTH

With a JD I can probably parlay that into 300-500k 5 years after graduation. That would be a damn good investment. If not I can always get into management/leadership/CTO with my experience and legal background.

People who can land decent jobs have decent common/business sense. HTH

Ok, well if you have some kind of baller experience/job that will take you back with a JD and somehow let you make the salary equivalent of a BIGLAW junior equity partner 5 years out, I take it back, but your opportunity lies within the top .001% of LS grads. The upside for most people 5 years out is making market clinging onto their BIGLAW job, having just finished paying off their student loan debt.

[Patriot1208]

There are A LOT of ex-consultants on these boards.

Well I am not, the same kind of, consultant.

I worked on development contracts. For a time most application/software development had a initial development stage where consultants are hired to complete, and in-house positions are created to maintain the apps at a less rate later. If you don't mind the short gaps and going on interviews a lot, you will like the money much more. It was reasonable to make $60-$100/hr for 2-3 month projects and I didn't even have a B.S. yet back then.

I took a part-time job so I can also work on small contracts and go to school full time right now, it's a calculated move to make some investments and get paid bigger after law school.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were. I just meant, a lot of people with solid work experience that allows them six figure jobs or a good path to six figure jobs do go to law school. If you really want to be a lawyer and can get into a top school, it's not ludicrous to make a little less to do something you'd like.

[ClayDavis]

There are A LOT of ex-consultants on these boards.

Well I am not, the same kind of, consultant.

I worked on development contracts. For a time most application/software development had a initial development stage where consultants are hired to complete, and in-house positions are created to maintain the apps at a less rate later. If you don't mind the short gaps and going on interviews a lot, you will like the money much more. It was reasonable to make $60-$100/hr for 2-3 month projects and I didn't even have a B.S. yet back then.

I took a part-time job so I can also work on small contracts and go to school full time right now, it's a calculated move to make some investments and get paid bigger after law school.

I didn't mean to insinuate you were. I just meant, a lot of people with solid work experience that allows them six figure jobs or a good path to six figure jobs do go to law school. If you really want to be a lawyer and can get into a top school, it's not ludicrous to make a little less to do something you'd like.

I think this is true in a few instances, for example HYS or CCN with scholarship, or if you are R6 who sounds like he has a legitimately good reason to want a JD. But I know a decent number of people who went to top schools, really want to be lawyers, and still don't have the opportunity to be one.

[rundoxierun]

There are A LOT of ex-consultants on these boards.

Well I am not, the same kind of, consultant.

I worked on development contracts. For a time most application/software development had a initial development stage where consultants are hired to complete, and in-house positions are created to maintain the apps at a less rate later. If you don't mind the short gaps and going on interviews a lot, you will like the money much more. It was reasonable to make $60-$100/hr for 2-3 month projects and I didn't even have a B.S. yet back then.

I took a part-time job so I can also work on small contracts and go to school full time right now, it's a calculated move to make some investments and get paid bigger after law school.

My god man.. what exact field are you in?? I know some people in a similar field (Business Intelligence software implementation/development) to what you describe and they make about half of that range.

[r6_philly]

Ok, well if you have some kind of baller experience/job that will take you back with a JD and somehow let you make the salary equivalent of a BIGLAW junior equity partner 5 years out, I take it back, but your opportunity lies within the top .001% of LS grads. The upside for most people 5 years out is making market clinging onto their BIGLAW job, having just finished paying off their student loan debt.

I only use my situation to show that everyone has their own reasons and factors to consider. You shouldn't simply say ROI on law school is questionable because the return can be in other forms. I spent 10 years sinking money into something I really loved, wasting every bit of my consultant money - the financial ROI was the worst, but the experience was priceless. You can look at law school the same way, many applicants will not be happier doing other things, and will pay the financial price to be a lawyer. It is a personal decision. Maybe clinging onto a biglaw job with 6 figure debt is better than clinging onto a $15/hr job with no debt for some but not others? It really is a personal decision.

[r6_philly]

My god man.. what exact field are you in?? I know some people in a similar field (Business Intelligence software implementation/development) to what you describe and they make about half of that range.

My resume says I am any of the following:

Software development manager/lead
Web development manager/lead
Database development manager/lead

One of the wonderful part about being a consultant is that I worked on so many contracts I really do have the experience to support these positions multiple times. I am past mid career (10+ years) though. If I want to go full-time, long term and do a real search I can land maybe $140k with a 40 hour work week. But I am a bit more ambitious, and I hate development management/lead because you have to follow stupid business decisions most of the time. I want to be in the strategic management layer but that needs a MBA. I plan to run a legal privacy/security consulting firm down the road, or be in executive layer of a tech firm, we will see.

BTW I am implying NO guarantee, I just think it is very doable if I put in the time and effort.

[ClayDavis]

My god man.. what exact field are you in?? I know some people in a similar field (Business Intelligence software implementation/development) to what you describe and they make about half of that range.

My resume says I am any of the following:

Software development manager/lead
Web development manager/lead
Database development manager/lead

One of the wonderful part about being a consultant is that I worked on so many contracts I really do have the experience to support these positions multiple times. I am past mid career (10+ years) though. If I want to go full-time, long term and do a real search I can land maybe $140k with a 40 hour work week. But I am a bit more ambitious, and I hate development management/lead because you have to follow stupid business decisions most of the time. I want to be in the strategic management layer but that needs a MBA. I plan to run a legal privacy/security consulting firm down the road, or be in executive layer of a tech firm, we will see.

BTW I am implying NO guarantee, I just think it is very doable if I put in the time and effort.

Sounds pretty cool. Any reason you're not doing an MBA? Also, do you mind if I ask how you got into that field?

[Aqualibrium]

Maybe clinging onto a biglaw job with 6 figure debt is better than clinging onto a $15/hr job with no debt for some but not others? It really is a personal decision.

Problem is that something like 20k of the 50k/yr law school grads ITE will be clinging to $15-20/hr doc review jobs with 6 figures in debt, and that's if they get a legal job at all...

[johnnyutah]

Maybe clinging onto a biglaw job with 6 figure debt is better than clinging onto a $15/hr job with no debt for some but not others? It really is a personal decision.

Problem is that something like 20k of the 50k/yr law school grads ITE will be clinging to $15-20/hr doc review jobs with 6 figures in debt, and that's if they get a legal job at all...

I know a bunch of doc review attorneys, and its not that bad as far as a paycheck job goes. You can make decent money in a year, and you can go on vacation and travel or whatever because you're not working all the time. People talk about doc review like it's the worst thing ever, but (while it's not what I wanna do long term) there are definitely worse things.

[r6_philly]

Sounds pretty cool. Any reason you're not doing an MBA? Also, do you mind if I ask how you got into that field?

I want to sue people?

I have a strong social conscience, so I want the ability to fight the right battles in a future society (mainly in online privacy issues). I am doing a M.P.A. right now so I can have the skills to run a nonprofit and/or provide inputs on tech policy formation in the future.

I was a geek in HS. Had online access, ran BBS and go into hacking a bit during the infancy of the WWW. After I dropped out of college, I happened upon the internet boom. There were a lack of technically skilled workers, so I worked through a consulting firm and got into doing contracts. It was harder to get a full-time job without a degree, the recruiters were definitely easier to work with as they helped placing me. After a couple years of experience I didn't even put any education section on my resume. Since I worked for big companies like Motorola and Canon, the experience did the talking. I don't really enjoy the field though, I enjoy the work, but not taking orders/directions from people who don't understand the technical side of thing. I also see a future in legal and audit services because most people in the world and the industry have no idea where the boundary is. It is an exciting field to get into as they are just starting to figure it all out. I think I would enjoy being a part of this new sector/frontier very much.

This reads like my PS BTW lol.

Someone is going to sue the crap out of facebook, I hope it's me?

[rundoxierun]

My god man.. what exact field are you in?? I know some people in a similar field (Business Intelligence software implementation/development) to what you describe and they make about half of that range.

My resume says I am any of the following:

Software development manager/lead
Web development manager/lead
Database development manager/lead

One of the wonderful part about being a consultant is that I worked on so many contracts I really do have the experience to support these positions multiple times. I am past mid career (10+ years) though. If I want to go full-time, long term and do a real search I can land maybe $140k with a 40 hour work week. But I am a bit more ambitious, and I hate development management/lead because you have to follow stupid business decisions most of the time. I want to be in the strategic management layer but that needs a MBA. I plan to run a legal privacy/security consulting firm down the road, or be in executive layer of a tech firm, we will see.

BTW I am implying NO guarantee, I just think it is very doable if I put in the time and effort.

Yeah all the people I know do it full-time. 80-100k is the range i have been told for lead jobs at large companies here in the south. More and more companies now have exec level IT positions and I have no idea what those guys get paid.

[r6_philly]

Maybe clinging onto a biglaw job with 6 figure debt is better than clinging onto a $15/hr job with no debt for some but not others? It really is a personal decision.

Problem is that something like 20k of the 50k/yr law school grads ITE will be clinging to $15-20/hr doc review jobs with 6 figures in debt, and that's if they get a legal job at all...

I know a bunch of doc review attorneys, and its not that bad as far as a paycheck job goes. You can make decent money in a year, and you can go on vacation and travel or whatever because you're not working all the time. People talk about doc review like it's the worst thing ever, but (while it's not what I wanna do long term) there are definitely worse things.

I wouldn't suggest anyone to pay $150k to land such a job, so there is truth in being careful in the school selection process and worrying about debt.

However, as in anything in life, there will be winners and non-winners. We can't all proceed by conceding. You have to take chances sometimes and deal with consequences. 50% is a damn good chance to land a great paying job. If you end up having to make doc review money and paying down your debt, you might actually be better off than if you didn't go to law school. I don't know how many of you have lived off of $30-40k a year, it is damn hard. Not having higher potential is going to depress anyone.

[Aqualibrium]

Maybe clinging onto a biglaw job with 6 figure debt is better than clinging onto a $15/hr job with no debt for some but not others? It really is a personal decision.

Problem is that something like 20k of the 50k/yr law school grads ITE will be clinging to $15-20/hr doc review jobs with 6 figures in debt, and that's if they get a legal job at all...

I know a bunch of doc review attorneys, and its not that bad as far as a paycheck job goes. You can make decent money in a year, and you can go on vacation and travel or whatever because you're not working all the time. People talk about doc review like it's the worst thing ever, but (while it's not what I wanna do long term) there are definitely worse things.

People talk about it like that because it eliminates you from ever being a viable candidate at most private firms and government agencies, doesn't help you develop any of the skills you'll need to be an actual attorney who can feed himself/navigate a case file/bring in clients, and because it's just not what you expected from your law degree; no one thought they'd be working in the basement of biglaw firms for 20-25 an hour with absolutely no job security (always looking for the next project, hoping the one you're on doesn't get canceled mid way, or worse, before you even show up), doing a job where no real intellectual prowess is required.

For all the hate on biglaw and how it treats young associates, it's heaven in comparison to doc review jobs. People rail on how Law School doesnt prepare you for practice; what does doc review prepare you for as far as advancement and growth goes? Running doc review projects? I think you'd be better served working for 30-40k (or hell for room and board) at a small shop and actually learning to do something than working doc review...

[r6_philly]

Yeah all the people I know do it full-time. 80-100k is the range i have been told for lead jobs at large companies here in the south. More and more companies now have exec level IT positions and I have no idea what those guys get paid.

Lead around here is 90-120k here in Philly with 5-7 years WE. But my WE is diverse so I can command a bit more. Plus the south is going to be less anyway due to the COL.

Exec IT positions at a good company can usually be $250+, very hard to get into though. I think if I tried to get into Wharton I should have a line to that. But 100% for-profit is boring, having a JD (in my own opinion) gives me more flexibility.

[johnnyutah]

I don't know how many of you have lived off of $30-40k a year, it is damn hard.

...you gotta be joking, right? My mom raised me as a single mom on that salary (well, 45k/year). Granted, it was in Kentucky, but still, it's not hard to live off that much by any means. Shit, my best friend lives in a Manayunk apartment off a 42k/year salary, and he lives extremely well.

[johnnyutah]

People talk about it like that because it eliminates you from ever being a viable candidate at most private firms and government agencies, doesn't help you develop any of the skills you'll need to be an actual attorney who can feed himself/navigate a case file/bring in clients, and because it's just not what you expected from your law degree; no one thought they'd be working in the basement of biglaw firms for 20-25 an hour with absolutely no job security (always looking for the next project, hoping the one you're on doesn't get canceled mid way, or worse, before you even show up), doing a job where no real intellectual prowess is required.

For all the hate on biglaw and how it treats young associates, it's heaven in comparison to doc review jobs. People rail on how Law School doesnt prepare you for practice; what does doc review prepare you for as far as advancement and growth goes? Running doc review projects? I think you'd be better served working for 30-40k (or hell for room and board) at a small shop and actually learning to do something than working doc review...

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not an ideal job, but if you have to do it for a few years to support yourself while you try to find something better, I don't think it's the end of the world. At least the attorneys I know who do it can afford to pursue their hobbies and go out for drinks or dinner periodically. I'd definitely prefer doing personal injury litigation for a small shop like you say, but if you can't find that job right away there's no shame in doc review.

[98234872348]

My only advice ITT is that if you are going to go to a school that is in a market you have little connections to or do not know much about, talk to some attorneys in that market, some students at the school, and try to manufacture the best connections to that market that you can.

I do not advise against going to a T1 per say, although it's a dumb idea to take my course (i.e. hope you're going to wind up in the top 10% and be guaranteed a job - by the way, you are likely not guaranteed a job and many students in that range at good regional schools are stuggling). If you have good connections and have friends/family in high places, it is almost definitely worth it. However, it would be wise to do a lot of investigation into the market you are targeting before diving right into a school in that market, even if you have good connections to that market.

[r6_philly]

I don't know how many of you have lived off of $30-40k a year, it is damn hard.

...you gotta be joking, right? My mom raised me as a single mom on that salary (well, 45k/year). Granted, it was in Kentucky, but still, it's not hard to live off that much by any means. Shit, my best friend lives in a Manayunk apartment off a 42k/year salary, and he lives extremely well.

I used to be homeless ... so I know how to be poor. But I don't want to just get by now that I worked my ass off to get here. Have 2 kids, buy a house, buy a couple of lawyer caliber cars and see how much that adds up to.

Can't always live like a bachelor you know, we eventually all hit 30. Kids cost more than adults, and I will not skimp on my kids - I don't want them to live like I did.

[johnnyutah]

I used to be homeless ... so I know how to be poor. But I don't want to just get by now that I worked my ass off to get here. Have 2 kids, buy a house, buy a couple of lawyer caliber cars and see how much that adds up to.

Can't always live like a bachelor you know, we eventually all hit 30. Kids cost more than adults, and I will not skimp on my kids - I don't want them to live like I did.

I'm turning 30 in two years, and honestly, I'm just looking forward to finally making over 20k in a year and not stressing constantly about paying rent. It definitely sucks that I can't even be thinking about kids right now, but I think I'd be very happy with a 40k job provided that the work was fun and took me to court a lot. I could give a shit about upgrading from my '96 Honda Accord as long as I have enough money for rent, insurance, gym membership and some of my random hobbies. The way I look at it is that just about everyone works hard, and lots of people bust their ass and still have nothing, so I gotta count my blessings to just have a way get by. Long story short - bring on the doc review if I can't find nothing else, I'm not scared

On a side note, it seems like you have a knack for success. How'd you wind up homeless?

[Patriot1208]

I used to be homeless ... so I know how to be poor. But I don't want to just get by now that I worked my ass off to get here. Have 2 kids, buy a house, buy a couple of lawyer caliber cars and see how much that adds up to.

Can't always live like a bachelor you know, we eventually all hit 30. Kids cost more than adults, and I will not skimp on my kids - I don't want them to live like I did.

I'm turning 30 in two years, and honestly, I'm just looking forward to finally making over 20k in a year and not stressing constantly about paying rent. It definitely sucks that I can't even be thinking about kids right now, but I think I'd be very happy with a 40k job provided that the work was fun and took me to court a lot. I could give a shit about upgrading from my '96 Honda Accord as long as I have enough money for rent, insurance, gym membership and some of my random hobbies. The way I look at it is that just about everyone works hard, and lots of people bust their ass and still have nothing, so I gotta count my blessings to just have a way get by. Long story short - bring on the doc review if I can't find nothing else, I'm not scared

On a side note, it seems like you have a knack for success. How'd you wind up homeless?

I'll be pissed if i'm not making at least 60k total comp out of undergrad. But, I admire your ability to see the brightside in things.

[danquayle]

Why doesn't the ABA like, I dunno, stop accrediting law schools then? While we're all excited about the upcoming opening of the University of North Texas College of Law, isn't this a bit like heroin dealers sticking "WARNING: MAY BE ADDICTIVE" labels on their smack? This is just as disingenuous.

[r6_philly]

I'm turning 30 in two years, and honestly, I'm just looking forward to finally making over 20k in a year and not stressing constantly about paying rent. It definitely sucks that I can't even be thinking about kids right now, but I think I'd be very happy with a 40k job provided that the work was fun and took me to court a lot. I could give a shit about upgrading from my '96 Honda Accord as long as I have enough money for rent, insurance, gym membership and some of my random hobbies. The way I look at it is that just about everyone works hard, and lots of people bust their ass and still have nothing, so I gotta count my blessings to just have a way get by.

Long story short - bring on the doc review if I can't find nothing else, I'm not scared

That's a good attitude, but you really have to prepare for the future. You don't think about family right now, but what if you meet the right person, whenever that happens would you be ready? What about retirement?

It hit me when I turned 30, that's when I decided to go back to school and try to upgrade my future. Living contracts to contracts was just not as cool when you have kids and family. And your spouse may want to live a $200k lifestyle since she knows you are capable