With a full scholarship - how far down USNWR would you go? Forum

[beesknees]

It obviously depends on your other options as well as your career goals. I think I'd go up to a T30 in the region I want to practice in on a full scholarship. However, I wouldn't go that far if I had a HYS acceptance just because I think those schools are truly worth the insane debt. Would I attend a T6 at sticker over a free T30? It would get more tricky. But I'd probably take a T30 full ride/close to it over bottom of T14 at sticker.

By that I wouldn't be implying that my prospects would be the same from the T14 vs the T30, but if the cost was SUCH a huge difference, I think at that point, the $200k debt couldn't be justified for my career goals in comparison to the lower ranked school.

However, people who are aspiring to land the best job at the most prestigious firm they possibly can, then I can understand gambling the debt against that.

[vanwinkle]

Just added an edit, from LA Times article, #s are from Bureau of Labor Statistics.

I was just reading that article. The BLS statistics are extrapolations through 2016 based on 2004-2008 hiring numbers. The problem is that the author of that Times article says he's taking into account "that the bureau's data is pre-recession" but gives no formula for how he's doing so. He could be radically wrong in his estimate of how much the economy has affected hiring.

However, the data there is fascinating because it shows how even before the recession hit there weren't nearly enough new jobs being created to absorb all the lawyers coming out of law schools. In 2008 there were only 25,000 more people employed as lawyers than there were in 2004, despite the fact that in the four years in between schools were cranking out 45,000 students a year, or 180,000 new lawyers. That's 180,000 - 25,000 = 155,000 people unaccounted for. Sure, some of them took jobs from people leaving the profession, but do you really honestly think there were over 150,000 people (that's nearly 20% of the legal job market) leaving their jobs voluntarily in that time?

Things weren't as good as they seemed even before the recession hit. There were not that many jobs that people could hold onto and keep; turnover was high, and the flood of new JDs just kept coming.

I'm not saying people shouldn't go to law school if they really want to. I'm paying close to sticker for the privilege myself, despite knowing all of this. But I am saying people should really be aware of all of this stuff, because a JD is not anywhere near a guaranteed path to success, or even a job, anymore.

[DerrickRose]

However, the data there is fascinating because it shows how even before the recession hit there weren't nearly enough new jobs being created to absorb all the lawyers coming out of law schools.

This This This.

People don't understand this. They think the recession will end and everything will be peachy. For kids with good grades at T1's, yeah, better times are probably ahead. But even if the ABA froze the number of JD's being given out right now, it would be decades, if not centuries, before population growth caused demand to catch up with supply.

The lesson, as always, don't go to TTT's.

[holydonkey]

Tried to find more info on the Bureau's website, but didn't have much luck. I did run across the "Occupational Employment and Wages for Lawyers" which has some interesting info on wages, geographic regions, etc.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/2008/may/oes231011.htm

[DerrickRose]

What the hell is going on in Rockford, IL that the 300 total lawyers there average $167k??

[84Sunbird2000]

What the hell is going on in Rockford, IL that the 300 total lawyers there average $167k??

Where did you find this? Damn, maybe I SHOULD try to go back to the hometown after school. If I would have known this, maybe I would have taken the full ride at IUB after all!



Not really, I still like DC/East better, but Rockford is absolutely dirt cheap to live in (as I'm sure you know).

[Veyron]

ASU/U of A I would do but otherwise not below UCLA/Texas/Vandy.

[doinmybest]

I received a full scholarship with a small stipend at a T30, and I turned it down. I would think about attending a school between 15 and 20 with a full ride... but I'm not sure If I would go. Job prospects are very important to me. It not just tuition that you have to lose, you'll still have to pay the COL. Additionally, there's the 3 years of income you have forgone, and the 3 grueling years of law school you went through. I'd like something to show for all my hard work when it's all said and done...

[dvd]

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[doinmybest]

I received a full scholarship with a small stipend at a T30, and I turned it down. I would think about attending a school between 15 and 20 with a full ride... but I'm not sure If I would go. Job prospects are very important to me. It not just tuition that you have to lose, you'll still have to pay the COL. Additionally, there's the 3 years of income you have forgone, and the 3 grueling years of law school you went through. I'd like something to show for all my hard work when it's all said and done...

Well, the "T30" was Alabama...

Good memory.

[fwaam]

However, I wouldn't go that far if I had a HYS acceptance just because I think those schools are truly worth the insane debt. Would I attend a T6 at sticker over a free T30? It would get more tricky. But I'd probably take a T30 full ride/close to it over bottom of T14 at sticker.

Given the tone of this thread, it seems appropriate to point out that some Harvard grads are getting deferred too. Average people at HYS probably have a better chance than average people everywhere else, but no school hands you a job on a silver platter.

[yabbadabbado]

This is what people mean when they say "there are too many lawyers".

However, the data there is fascinating because it shows how even before the recession hit there weren't nearly enough new jobs being created to absorb all the lawyers coming out of law schools. In 2008 there were only 25,000 more people employed as lawyers than there were in 2004, despite the fact that in the four years in between schools were cranking out 45,000 students a year, or 180,000 new lawyers. That's 180,000 - 25,000 = 155,000 people unaccounted for. Sure, some of them took jobs from people leaving the profession, but do you really honestly think there were over 150,000 people (that's nearly 20% of the legal job market) leaving their jobs voluntarily in that time?

[84Sunbird2000]

This is what people mean when they say "there are too many lawyers".

However, the data there is fascinating because it shows how even before the recession hit there weren't nearly enough new jobs being created to absorb all the lawyers coming out of law schools. In 2008 there were only 25,000 more people employed as lawyers than there were in 2004, despite the fact that in the four years in between schools were cranking out 45,000 students a year, or 180,000 new lawyers. That's 180,000 - 25,000 = 155,000 people unaccounted for. Sure, some of them took jobs from people leaving the profession, but do you really honestly think there were over 150,000 people (that's nearly 20% of the legal job market) leaving their jobs voluntarily in that time?

Well, considering the demographics of baby boomers and the speed at which they are beginning to retire, I'd guess a lot of those leaving the profession CAN be accounted for just by retirement. If we say the average career in law lasts 30 years, then 1 of 7.5 lawyers would be retiring every 4 years. Now, it might be more like 1 of 10 or even 1 of 15 because there may be fewer lawyers that hailed from that time period as a percentage of their overall peer age group in society. Even with that, you've got others who quit after 5 or 10 years, etc...

In other words, I'd be surprised if MOST of that 155,000 can't easily be explained away. Of course, based on the old 30k law jobs for 45k grads, then you only have to explain 95,000, which makes it even easier to believe.

[MrSoOoFLy]

Hofstra or open up a smoothie shack.

[MentalGopher]

I wanted to hear what TLS people thought. If you had a full scholarship that covered all tuition and potential increases, ignoring all other law school choices, how far down USNWR rankings would you go? At what point would the opportunity and living cost make it infeasible? Above 90? Tier 3? Tier 4?

I personally would probably go down to UNLV. I wouldn't go T3 or T4 unless they could literally guarantee a job that would make those three years worthwhile.

[TheBigMediocre]

What the hell is going on in Rockford, IL that the 300 total lawyers there average $167k??

Bendini, Lambert and Locke.

(A gold star for anyone who knows the reference.)

[MentalGopher]

What the hell is going on in Rockford, IL that the 300 total lawyers there average $167k??

Bendini, Lambert and Locke.

(A gold star for anyone who knows the reference.)

BAHAHAHAHA! One of the better Grisham books, if you ask me.

[Tanicius]

What the hell is going on in Rockford, IL that the 300 total lawyers there average $167k??

Bendini, Lambert and Locke.

(A gold star for anyone who knows the reference.)

BAHAHAHAHA! One of the better Grisham books, if you ask me.

Yeah, first time I came across a firm name and knew what it meant was as I was reading, of all things, The Firm.

[JOThompson]

I would go down to the 60s for a full tuition scholarship, especially if I didn't have any solid T14 (or Vandy) options.

[dvd]

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