Where did you draw the line for sticker? Forum

[You Gotta Have Faith]

t18

^Blatant knock on WUSTL? Or possibly love of USC? Not sure.

But to answer the question... it COMPLETELY depends on the person. If you have a 178, 3.9 (or something else highly competitive) you shouldn't pay sticker for anything but YHS, unless doing so would make you happy (you reaaaally want CC or N). But to the applicant who has a 158, 3.8 and happens to get into a school in the 20s or, God forbid, even the 30s/40s, then sticker may well be worth it to them.

For me? I would've drawn the line somewhere in the 60s or so. That's because I knew I wanted to go to law school. As I got money from multiple schools in the teens and 20s, I didn't have to draw the line there. But in any event, I think it's all too easy to say you would draw the line just at or right below where you are attending for sticker, after it is all over.

60s? Seems like an awesome way to end up heavily indebted for mediocre job prospects. Even if you're sure you never wanted to leave KS or NM.

Kansas or New Mexico? Where did that come from? 60s is what I said. Fortunately, it never did come to that for me. But I did know I wanted to go to law school. The ones in that range aren't the best, but they're not THAT bad. Even at some of the better schools... you cannot completely depend on your school to do all of the work for you.

The better question is: If you knew you wanted to go to law school, and that's all you got into, then what would you do? Just not go because of it? I understand that there is certainly a cutoff for everyone, but if you're only willing to go to the most elite of schools or else not go, I suggest you are probably picking law school for the wrong reasons. There are plenty of ways to make good money.

EDIT: But I do understand that the 60s can be a bit scary for some. So I do think not wanting to pay sticker there is certainly credited. I'm mainly not understanding the T6 or bust type of answers, unless of course your numbers can make that a reality. But for the vast majority, this is not the case.

[Grizz]

Kansas or New Mexico? Where did that come from? 60s is what I said. Fortunately, it never did come to that for me. But I did know I wanted to go to law school. The ones in that range aren't the best, but they're not THAT bad. Even at some of the better schools... you cannot completely depend on your school to do all of the work for you.

The better question is: If you knew you wanted to go to law school, and that's all you got into, then what would you do? Just not go because of it? I understand that there is certainly a cutoff for everyone, but if you're only willing to go to the most elite of schools or else not go, I suggest you are probably picking law school for the wrong reasons. There are plenty of ways to make good money.

EDIT: But I do understand that the 60s can be a bit scary for some. So I do think not wanting to pay sticker there is certainly credited. I'm mainly not understanding the T6 or bust type of answers, unless of course your numbers can make that a reality. But for the vast majority, this is not the case.

KS and NM, just a couple schools ranked in the 60s that "dominate" their respective states.

Schools in the 60s aren't bad, but are not worth sticker in the least. If I was going for free, maybe. Georgia State? Places in ATL behind Duke/UVA, Vandy, Emory, UGA, in that order. Anecdotally, the top of their class is getting massacred for jobs. Miami? Have fun going massively in debt for the third best law school in FL. Brooklyn? Seriously? With a ridiculous cost of living in a crowded market?

You can't depend on the school to do all the work for you, but would you put $140k plus on being in the top 10% of your class as some place like Georgia State, and still not be guaranteed a job? If you went to, say, Vanderbilt, you would at least have a nice >50% shot at NLJ250 or clerkship for about the same price as or a little more than schools in the 60s.

The issue isn't being rich, it's paying down the debt without living like a pauper. Because someday, I may need to go in debt to buy a house, or pay for my kid's college. It's not elite or don't go, it's elite at sticker, some other schools with money, or don't go. LS is an investment. My number's didn't make T6, but I got into T-17 with $$. So I'm confident it's a good investment. If I really wanted to be a lawyer, and all I did was get into schools ranked in the 60s at sticker, I wouldn't go. Simple as that. Retake, reapply.

[miamiman]

Rad Law is making a lot of sense.

[You Gotta Have Faith]

Kansas or New Mexico? Where did that come from? 60s is what I said. Fortunately, it never did come to that for me. But I did know I wanted to go to law school. The ones in that range aren't the best, but they're not THAT bad. Even at some of the better schools... you cannot completely depend on your school to do all of the work for you.

The better question is: If you knew you wanted to go to law school, and that's all you got into, then what would you do? Just not go because of it? I understand that there is certainly a cutoff for everyone, but if you're only willing to go to the most elite of schools or else not go, I suggest you are probably picking law school for the wrong reasons. There are plenty of ways to make good money.

EDIT: But I do understand that the 60s can be a bit scary for some. So I do think not wanting to pay sticker there is certainly credited. I'm mainly not understanding the T6 or bust type of answers, unless of course your numbers can make that a reality. But for the vast majority, this is not the case.

KS and NM, just a couple schools ranked in the 60s that "dominate" their respective states.

Schools in the 60s aren't bad, but are not worth sticker in the least. If I was going for free, maybe. Georgia State? Places in ATL behind Duke/UVA, Vandy, Emory, UGA, in that order. Anecdotally, the top of their class is getting massacred for jobs. Miami? Have fun going massively in debt for the third best law school in FL. Brooklyn? Seriously? With a ridiculous cost of living in a crowded market?

You can't depend on the school to do all the work for you, but would you put $140k plus on being in the top 10% of your class as some place like Georgia State, and still not be guaranteed a job? If you went to, say, Vanderbilt, you would at least have a nice >50% shot at NLJ250 or clerkship for about the same price as or a little more than schools in the 60s.

The issue isn't being rich, it's paying down the debt without living like a pauper. Because someday, I may need to go in debt to buy a house, or pay for my kid's college. It's not elite or don't go, it's elite at sticker, some other schools with money, or don't go. LS is an investment. My number's didn't make T6, but I got into T-17 with $$. So I'm confident it's a good investment. If I really wanted to be a lawyer, and all I did was get into schools ranked in the 60s at sticker, I wouldn't go. Simple as that. Retake, reapply.

It is worth noting that your student loans never HAVE to be higher than 15% of your total income. Admittedly, there are sever disadvantages to making minimum payments as well though.

That said, I do see where you are coming from. I'm in a similar boat, more or less, and feel fortunate to be getting a little bit of help at a school in the teens. But I still can't help but feel for those who really want to go to law school, and will/would probably be fine contributions to the profession... but shouldn't go all because they are unable to get into a school (with money) in the 20s or higher.

I just think for me personally, if I couldn't have quite gotten into a school like the one I'm attending right now, I would be hard pressed to say that I would have just not gone to law school at all. Perhaps I would retake, etc. like you suggest. I don't really know, since I was never faced with the dilemma. But I have a fair share of friends who have had that dilemma. At least 2 of them opted not to go to law school. But a few did go. And I can't bring myself to tell them they have poor judgment because of it. That's just what they want to do. Again, I think it depends on the person. But I could be alone in that interpretation. All are free to dissent

[Grizz]

It is worth noting that your student loans never HAVE to be higher than 15% of your total income. Admittedly, there are sever disadvantages to making minimum payments as well though.

That said, I do see where you are coming from. I'm in a similar boat, more or less, and feel fortunate to be getting a little bit of help at a school in the teens. But I still can't help but feel for those who really want to go to law school, and will/would probably be fine contributions to the profession... but shouldn't go all because they are unable to get into a school (with money) in the 20s or higher.

I just think for me personally, if I couldn't have quite gotten into a school like the one I'm attending right now, I would be hard pressed to say that I would have just not gone to law school at all. Perhaps I would retake, etc. like you suggest. I don't really know, since I was never faced with the dilemma. But I have a fair share of friends who have had that dilemma. At least 2 of them opted not to go to law school. But a few did go. And I can't bring myself to tell them they have poor judgment because of it. That's just what they want to do. Again, I think it depends on the person. But I could be alone in that interpretation. All are free to dissent

15% seems pretty onerous to me haha.

For these people to which you would refer, I'd strongly caution them against it, and I'd show them all the empirical evidence that says it's a terrible shot, but ultimately, as long as they go into it with their eyes open, I guess I've done all I can. Eh.

[stratocophic]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

[DerrickRose]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

[SaintClarence27]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.

[stratocophic]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

1) I have no (or at least very, very little) desire to work in NYC.
2) NYU doesn't place as well nationally as CC, from all accounts I've heard. If that's false, so be it, but...
3) I hate hipsters.

Ergo, I would not pay sticker at NYU, and thus I did not apply.

Besides, haven't you heard? It's T12 now.

[stratocophic]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.

I'm not an old, NU wouldn't have the same QOL for me as it would for DF & co. It's not all NLJ, but also remember that the fact that NU is on top of the list doesn't mean it places the most easily on its own merits. Yale could and doubtless would perform better if its students suddenly decided they were all about the benjamins. Besides, I don't have WE, which has been theorized as one of the reasons NU places so well.

[icydash]

I know a lot of people may say I'm crazy, but for me it was T30. But I think like a previous posted said, it depends on your numbers a lot. If your numbers dictate you should easily get into T40 schools (like mine do, and possibly get some scholarship $, too), and T20 schools are more in the reach category (waitlisted/rejected mostly), then it's probably acceptable for me to realistically say that somewhere around the T30 is a reasonable place for me to draw the "sticker line."

Also, a lot of the schools between the T20 and T30 seem to hover between 20-30% for NLJ250 placement, which I felt was acceptable for me (for others it may not be) to pay sticker for.

[stratocophic]

I know a lot of people may say I'm crazy, but for me it was T30. But I think like a previous posted said, it depends on your numbers a lot. If your numbers dictate you should easily get into T40 schools (like mine do, and possibly get some scholarship $, too), and T20 schools are more in the reach category (waitlisted/rejected mostly), then it's probably acceptable for me to realistically say that somewhere around the T30 is a reasonable place for me to draw the "sticker line."

Also, a lot of the schools between the T20 and T30 seem to hover between 20-30% for NLJ250 placement, which I felt was acceptable for me (for others it may not be) to pay sticker for.

+1

TBF, I would have paid sticker at WUSTL with very little to no hesitation before I retook in December and they offered the amount of money they did. What I stated is simply my current outlook and more like what it'd take to get me to take a WL offer at this point, not what I'd have done going into the cycle.

[romothesavior]

T10. Would not pay sticker at GULC/Cornell (hence why I withdrew from both) or anything below that. Would probably pay sticker at NW since I want the midwest, but Duke would be a tough call for me. Virginia/Michigan on up, I would pay sticker for.

[Rand M.]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

1) I have no (or at least very, very little) desire to work in NYC.
2) NYU doesn't place as well nationally as CC, from all accounts I've heard. If that's false, so be it, but...
3) I hate hipsters.

Ergo, I would not pay sticker at NYU, and thus I did not apply.

Besides, haven't you heard? It's T12 now.

I have no idea why people have so much of a problem accepting HYSCC. The differences between CC and N are there if you are willing to see them. As far as national placement goes they are just not on the same level. That really shouldn't be as controversial as it is. This is just the way things are, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Sticker for me would probably extend to the T6 and UVa. I have preferences among those, but if it came to it any of those could have my full tuition. As it happens, one of them will, so yeah.

[DerrickRose]

Besides, haven't you heard? It's T12 now.

Its fine not to like NYU, but to exclude them from CCN is ridiculous. And although T12 makes more sense than T13 (which is the most horrendous Cornell trolling ever), it still seems silly. The movement of law schools is glacial at the fastest, and the T14 has stood the test of time.

The true tiers in review:

Benevolent Overlord:
Y
With an unquantifiable but still palpable gap before...
Totally National:
H
S
With very little material gap before...
Constructively National:
CC
N

MVPB
DN
CG
With very little material gap before...

Quasi-National Regional Hegemons:
Vandy/Texas/UCLA/USC

With only slight (in-region) material gap before...(Picture the next groups in parallel rather than on top of each other)

Note: Henceforth, regional-ness of schools increases exponentially for each level you go down
ESPN Country Martial Law Quarantine (AKA No Leaving City Limits) Regional:
BU/BC/Fordham/GW
Cardozo/George Mason/Maryland/UConn
Brooklyn/Seton Hall/St. Johns/Hofstra/RU-N/RU-C/Villanova/Temple/American
Northeastern/Syracuse/Buffalo/Catholic/Suffolk/UDC/Any other TTT's
NYLS

Big Ten Network Regional:
Illinois/ND/WUSTL
Iowa/Wisconsin/Ohio State/Minnesota/Indiana
Loyola/Kent/DePaul/Pitt/Penn State/Case Western
William Mitchell/John Marshall/Marquette/Indiana-Indy/SLU/Michigan State/Any other TTT's

West Coast Latitude Restricted Regional:
UCD/UCH/UCI/UW/Arizona/ASU
Loyola/Pepperdine/San Diego/Santa Clara/USF/Oregon/L&C/Seattle/UNLV
Southwestern/Golden Gate/Gonzaga/Pacific/Any other TTT's

Individually Localized South Regional:
Emory
W&M/W&L/UGA/UNC/Wake/Tulane/UF/Alabama
FSU/Miami/Kentucky
Richmond/South Carolina/LSU/Ole Miss/Tennessee/Arkansas
Assorted Southern TTT's
Florida TTT's

Ron Paul 2012! Regional
Houston/Baylor/SMU/Colorado/BYU
Jefferson Davis Corrollary: The next tier is any western school named University of __________
Texas Tech/Texas Southern/Any Other TTT's


Wow, that took awhile. But it was worth it.

[romothesavior]

Besides, haven't you heard? It's T12 now.

Its fine not to like NYU, but to exclude them from CCN is ridiculous. And although T12 makes more sense than T13 (which is the most horrendous Cornell trolling ever), it still seems silly. The movement of law schools is glacial at the fastest, and the T14 has stood the test of time.

The true tiers in review:

Benevolent Overlord:
Y
With an unquantifiable but still palpable gap before...
Totally National:
H
S
With very little material gap before...
Constructively National:
CC
N

MVPB
DN
CG
With very little material gap before...

Quasi-National Regional Hegemons:
Vandy/Texas/UCLA/USC

With only slight (in-region) material gap before...(Picture the next groups in parallel rather than on top of each other)

Note: Henceforth, regional-ness of schools increases exponentially for each level you go down
ESPN Country Martial Law Quarantine (AKA No Leaving City Limits) Regional:
BU/BC/Fordham/GW
Cardozo/George Mason/Maryland/UConn
Brooklyn/Seton Hall/St. Johns/Hofstra/RU-N/RU-C/Villanova/Temple/American
Northeastern/Syracuse/Buffalo/Catholic/Suffolk/UDC/Any other TTT's
NYLS

Big Ten Network Regional:
Illinois/ND/WUSTL
Iowa/Wisconsin/Ohio State/Minnesota/Indiana
Loyola/Kent/DePaul/Pitt/Penn State/Case Western
William Mitchell/John Marshall/Marquette/Indiana-Indy/SLU/Michigan State/Any other TTT's

West Coast Latitude Restricted Regional:
UCD/UCH/UCI/UW/Arizona/ASU
Loyola/Pepperdine/San Diego/Santa Clara/USF/Oregon/L&C/Seattle/UNLV
Southwestern/Golden Gate/Gonzaga/Pacific/Any other TTT's

Individually Localized South Regional:
Emory
W&M/W&L/UGA/UNC/Wake/Tulane/UF/Alabama
FSU/Miami/Kentucky
Richmond/South Carolina/LSU/Ole Miss/Tennessee/Arkansas
Assorted Southern TTT's
Florida TTT's

Ron Paul 2012! Regional
Houston/Baylor/SMU/Colorado/BYU
Jefferson Davis Corrollary: The next tier is any western school named University of __________
Texas Tech/Texas Southern/Any Other TTT's


Wow, that took awhile. But it was worth it.

From all accounts, BU and BC place very well in NYC and GW places well along the east coast. Not sure why those are city-limited like Fordham (which places something like 90%+ of their students in NYC).

Also, the gap between NYU and Columbia is pretty substantial. Columbia is far closer to Stanford than to NYU, and Columbia has better national portability than NYU.

[jacko]

I was willing to pay sticker for SMU because I know that I want to work in Dallas.

I think it's worthwhile to shell out full price at certain regional powerhouses like SMU or UWashington as well.

I'm starting to think that full price at the University of Washington might be too much. I'm on the sticker at T14 only bandwagon.

[DerrickRose]

From all accounts, BU and BC place very well in NYC and GW places well along the east coast. Not sure why those are city-limited like Fordham (which places something like 90%+ of their students in NYC).

Also, the gap between NYU and Columbia is pretty substantial. Columbia is far closer to Stanford than to NYU, and Columbia has better national portability than NYU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection

[Rand M.]

I was willing to pay sticker for SMU because I know that I want to work in Dallas.

I think it's worthwhile to shell out full price at certain regional powerhouses like SMU or UWashington as well.

I'm starting to think that full price at the University of Washington might be too much. I'm on the sticker at T14 only bandwagon.

The thing about regional powerhouses is that they are usually state schools. If a school is public then "sticker" would probably be significantly reduced in the first place for those who are in-state.

[Helmholtz]

HYSCC for sticker
NBMVPDN with scholarship
CG with full-ride

[SaintClarence27]

HYSCC - certain
NBPM - maybe, probably not
VDN - maybe, almost certainly not
CG - I turned down 10k per year from Vandy, the hell would I want to go to a school with worse QOL and performance in NLJ 250 placement?

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.

I'm not an old, NU wouldn't have the same QOL for me as it would for DF & co. It's not all NLJ, but also remember that the fact that NU is on top of the list doesn't mean it places the most easily on its own merits. Yale could and doubtless would perform better if its students suddenly decided they were all about the benjamins. Besides, I don't have WE, which has been theorized as one of the reasons NU places so well.

Fair enough. You definitely make salient points specifically about NU. It just seemed, out of context that you just presented, that you were going just by the rankings, and were certainly not the first to do so. Me personally, I'd pay sticker at NU, but wouldn't at Chicago or Columbia. From this thread, it seemed like there were very few people who were willing to go outside of the strict rankings. Overall, I'd say that it's a very personal decision for me, and a lot of posters did not seem to act in the same way.

[romothesavior]

From all accounts, BU and BC place very well in NYC and GW places well along the east coast. Not sure why those are city-limited like Fordham (which places something like 90%+ of their students in NYC).

Also, the gap between NYU and Columbia is pretty substantial. Columbia is far closer to Stanford than to NYU, and Columbia has better national portability than NYU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection

Why would NYU students self-select towards NYC while Columbia students would select out?

[Rand M.]

HYSCC for sticker
NBMVPDN with scholarship
CG with full-ride

All this.

[jacko]

I was willing to pay sticker for SMU because I know that I want to work in Dallas.

I think it's worthwhile to shell out full price at certain regional powerhouses like SMU or UWashington as well.

I'm starting to think that full price at the University of Washington might be too much. I'm on the sticker at T14 only bandwagon.

The thing about regional powerhouses is that they are usually state schools. If a school is public then "sticker" would probably be significantly reduced in the first place for those who are in-state.

Yeah, but COA for UW is 120,00K for an instate resident. Combined with the saturated Seattle market and the law school's refusal to give many scholarships, it doesn't seem like a strong as a choice as people make it out to be.

[stratocophic]

HYSCC for sticker
NBMVPDN with scholarship
CG with full-ride

Exactly what I implied. Props for good taste.

Oh, stop it with the "HYSCC" garbage. That's even worse than this "T13" that seems to be floating around.

What I don't understand, if it's about QOL and NLJ 250, is why he'd pay sticker at Chicago, but not at NU.

I'm not an old, NU wouldn't have the same QOL for me as it would for DF & co. It's not all NLJ, but also remember that the fact that NU is on top of the list doesn't mean it places the most easily on its own merits. Yale could and doubtless would perform better if its students suddenly decided they were all about the benjamins. Besides, I don't have WE, which has been theorized as one of the reasons NU places so well.

Fair enough. You definitely make salient points specifically about NU. It just seemed, out of context that you just presented, that you were going just by the rankings, and were certainly not the first to do so. Me personally, I'd pay sticker at NU, but wouldn't at Chicago or Columbia. From this thread, it seemed like there were very few people who were willing to go outside of the strict rankings. Overall, I'd say that it's a very personal decision for me, and a lot of posters did not seem to act in the same way.

Yeah, I didn't really rationalize anything in the first post, just made a few easily-misinterpreted flippant remarks, so it's understandable.