Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[Dr. Filth]

ftr I think most of the JD-MBA's in my class do not plan on being lawyers at all.

edit: at nu

[lecsa]

I dunno, but as sublime pointed out, if someone works 35 hours a week at Starbucks, then the school gets to count them as being in "full-time, long-term" employment in the "business and industry" category.

This is why the salary info is so important. The dean actually brought this point up at the NU ASW. He gave the salary breakdown of their business category and their JD advantage category, and explained how a large portion of their jobs in those categories are legitimate jobs, which can't be said for many other t14.

Yes, because they have so many people with legit work experience going back to the jobs they had before law school, or that experience is helping them get other jobs in that same field. I don't believe that northwestern is this special T14 that gets people non-law jobs while other ones can't...

Which kind of goes back to what I was saying before, how northwestern cleverly gets people who have good work experience to up their stats, stats that would misrepresent probability of outcomes for K-JDs and people that have "not good" WE.

Agree with this. A lot of these people with WE would probably get biglaw at other T-14s.

If you're the average applicant with no good WE, NU is not going to give you a boost.

For whatever reason, there are a lot of NU fanboys around. I think maybe a couple are grads and most are 0Ls (whose opinion on biglaw hiring I wouldn't consider).

[bowser]

Probably answered already but there's 40 pages here so I'll ask again

How do you reconcile the employment data given with the NLJ and LST data?
Based on our school's data, 80% of CCN students get a job through EIW (and mass mailing).
However, NLJ shows only 60% or so for CCN

So what happens to the 20%?
When our school tells us that 80% got jobs "through EIW" (and mass mailing), does that means small firm, gov., etc.? So are they just basically saying "80% of our students had an offer DURING 2L year"? Because that's what it sounds like

You're comparing 2 different things. CS probably told you something like "80% of those who participated in EIW got an offer." NLJ is the % of graduates who started working at a big law firm after graduation. People will clerk, decide to do other things, get no-offered after the summer.

When did you get the 80% number? Recently?

[lecsa]

Probably answered already but there's 40 pages here so I'll ask again

How do you reconcile the employment data given with the NLJ and LST data?
Based on our school's data, 80% of CCN students get a job through EIW (and mass mailing).
However, NLJ shows only 60% or so for CCN

So what happens to the 20%?
When our school tells us that 80% got jobs "through EIW" (and mass mailing), does that means small firm, gov., etc.? So are they just basically saying "80% of our students had an offer DURING 2L year"? Because that's what it sounds like

You're comparing 2 different things. CS probably told you something like "80% of those who participated in EIW got an offer." NLJ is the % of graduates who started working at a big law firm after graduation. People will clerk, decide to do other things, get no-offered after the summer.

When did you get the 80% number? Recently?

Maybe I'm misreading, but maybe the 20% are non-NLJ 250 firms.

[LRGhost]

Agree with this. A lot of these people with WE would probably get biglaw at other T-14s.

If you're the average applicant with no good WE, NU is not going to give you a boost.

For whatever reason, there are a lot of NU fanboys around. I think maybe a couple are grads and most are 0Ls (whose opinion on biglaw hiring I wouldn't consider).

Protip: Being an average bro with no WE at any school that isn't YHSCC and maybe NP leaves you in roughly the same spot. Also, you're fooling yourself if you think the average law student at any T14 hasn't worked at least a year in something he or she could present as 'subtantial'. The nugget of information 0L's should take from this thread is that outside of YHSCCN, there's no discernible difference in the stats until you get to GULC.

[rayiner]

Most of the people at NU with really impressive WE were JD-MBA's. NU has more JD-MBA's than it has K-JD's. But they hurt NU's numbers more than help. They are counted in the denominator of total students, but mostly opt out of law firms and clerkships and so are counted as bad outcomes.

I think the bottom line is that some people have USNWR on the brain. They feel the need to find reasons to reconcile the employment data with the rankings, and look for reasons why #12 NU might outplace #10 Michigan. But the simple answer is that location, size, and marketing matters more than what law professors think of each others' schools.

[aboutmydaylight]

Any particular reason as to why JD/MBAs tend to lean heavily toward business jobs post graduation? A JD/MBA at Stanford's ASW told me its because an MBA is of little use in JD traditional fields while a JD has a higher potential to benefit an MBA student.

What's the truth to this? Seems like the majority of JD/MBAs that didn't apply to both programs before enrollment start off as JD and add MBA while less start off as MBA and add JD. Is it because an MBA doesn't pigeonhole you as much as a JD and people deciding on JD/MBA have largely decided they don't want to work in law?

[rayiner]

Any particular reason as to why JD/MBAs tend to lean heavily toward business jobs post graduation? A JD/MBA at Stanford's ASW told me its because an MBA is of little use in JD traditional fields while a JD has a higher potential to benefit an MBA student.

What's the truth to this? Seems like the majority of JD/MBAs that didn't apply to both programs before enrollment start off as JD and add MBA while less start off as MBA and add JD. Is it because an MBA doesn't pigeonhole you as much as a JD and people deciding on JD/MBA have largely decided they don't want to work in law?

I think the legal background has particular value for people who want to go into areas like real estate and restructuring. These are some of the few places where even plain JD's can break over to the business side, so those employers look favorably on the combination.

[09042014]

I think most JD/MBAs do law. It's only at M7 JD/MBA schools were the MBA program has better business options than law options. So I'd imagine that the JD MBA's at Duke or Boalt are going mostly into law.

[LRGhost]

Any particular reason as to why JD/MBAs tend to lean heavily toward business jobs post graduation?

It's not easy to get into an M7 MBA. You need decent work experience. Most M7 JD/MBA classes are small and NU has the largest one. People would prefer to go back to business for a variety of reasons. Better exit options, more money, different type of work than what you'd do in Big Law, etc. It's more prestigious to be an M7 grad than a T14 grad and the jobs and opportunities tend to reflect that.

[aboutmydaylight]

I think most JD/MBAs do law. It's only at M7 JD/MBA schools were the MBA program has better business options than law options. So I'd imagine that the JD MBA's at Duke or Boalt are going mostly into law.

Really? Because I've heard basically the exact opposite That the drop off from top law schools is much steeper than top business schools.

Specifically this: http://tippingthescales.com/2013/09/law ... he-jobs/2/

And also salaries drop off a lot quicker for JD students. Seems like assuming these things were true, most JD/MBAs would lean business except at the top schools. Yet anecdotally that doesn't seem to be the case.

[09042014]

I think most JD/MBAs do law. It's only at M7 JD/MBA schools were the MBA program has better business options than law options. So I'd imagine that the JD MBA's at Duke or Boalt are going mostly into law.

Really? Because I've heard basically the exact opposite That the drop off from top law schools is much steeper than top business schools.

Specifically this: http://tippingthescales.com/2013/09/law ... he-jobs/2/

And also salaries drop off a lot quicker for JD students. Seems like assuming these things were true, most JD/MBAs would lean business except at the top schools. Yet anecdotally that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'm no expert, but from what I've read the only MBAs that are really worth it at the M7. They are basically the T14 for the MBA world.

[Princetonlaw68]

Most of the people at NU with really impressive WE were JD-MBA's. NU has more JD-MBA's than it has K-JD's. But they hurt NU's numbers more than help. They are counted in the denominator of total students, but mostly opt out of law firms and clerkships and so are counted as bad outcomes.

I think the bottom line is that some people have USNWR on the brain. They feel the need to find reasons to reconcile the employment data with the rankings, and look for reasons why #12 NU might outplace #10 Michigan. But the simple answer is that location, size, and marketing matters more than what law professors think of each others' schools.

For me the USNWR has nothing to do with the comments I'm making. I can't speak for others though.

[20141023]

.

[rayiner]

One thing that makes it hard to compare outcomes for MBA's is that below a certain level (M7 being the typical demarcation) getting an MBA is more about moving up in your existing career track than opening up a new one. Even within the M7, it can be very hard for people who don't have finance backgrounds to finance jobs. So for MBA's, the salary stats don't paint the whole picture about the gap between M7 and the rest. Indeed, even at Kellogg, people are mostly on the outside looking in at elite finance jobs. Arguably, the gap between HSW and the rest of the M7 is bigger than the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14.

[LRGhost]

I am not sure why you assume that an M7 MBA is more "prestigious" than a T14 JD, especially when there are only about 5,000 people admitted into the entire T14 each year, whereas there are over 8,500 admitted into the M7; there are only 2,000 people admitted to the 6 law schools that have the option of a JD/MBA within the M7 (MIT being the exception).

As you mentioned, people usually need some decent work experience to get into an M7, whereas this is not the case for a T14. This probably leads to the outcome you noted ("it's more prestigious to be an M7 grad than a T14 grad and the jobs and opportunities tend to reflect that"). Decent work experience and expanded networks are the major factors here - not "prestige." If prestige had anything to do with it, it would be the name of the school itself and not the degree you got (a basket-weaving degree from Harvard would probably be considered "prestigious" by most Americans just because Harvard).

The numbers don't necessarily correlate to 'prestige'. It's what you said with regards to work experience. You can test your way into a T14 and be an otherwise unremarkable person. Plenty of people at M7's are unremarkable but a good GPA and GMAT won't carry you into a top program like a GPA and LSAT would for law school. To me, that's the difference in 'prestige'. We're not talking about how 'most' people view this; we're talking about a fairly narrow set of professionals that are sort of familiar with the relative value of schools and degrees. The opportunities available are what make M7's prestigious. The opportunities are available because the classes are fairly impressive. It's the same reason there are more opportunities at the T14 than the T25. By and large, the classes will skew more impressive towards the top.

So yeah, it's not enough to say that more JD/MBA's would opt for business over law because of 'prestige' since that doesn't mean anything on its own. But what you can get from an M7 is a lot wider than what you can get from a T14. I think that's a big factor.

[09042014]

One thing that makes it hard to compare outcomes for MBA's is that below a certain level (M7 being the typical demarcation) getting an MBA is more about moving up in your existing career track than opening up a new one. Even within the M7, it can be very hard for people who don't have finance backgrounds to finance jobs. So for MBA's, the salary stats don't paint the whole picture about the gap between M7 and the rest. Indeed, even at Kellogg, people are mostly on the outside looking in at elite finance jobs. Arguably, the gap between HSW and the rest of the M7 is bigger than the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14.

Finance is so 2007. It's all about the management and entrepreneurship now.

[NYC-WVU]

Any particular reason as to why JD/MBAs tend to lean heavily toward business jobs post graduation? A JD/MBA at Stanford's ASW told me its because an MBA is of little use in JD traditional fields while a JD has a higher potential to benefit an MBA student.

What's the truth to this? Seems like the majority of JD/MBAs that didn't apply to both programs before enrollment start off as JD and add MBA while less start off as MBA and add JD. Is it because an MBA doesn't pigeonhole you as much as a JD and people deciding on JD/MBA have largely decided they don't want to work in law?

Just a theory here, but couldn't part of it be about the size of these fields. The business world is just SO MUCH BIGGER than the legal world. Thus, it has so many more possibilities.

[jbagelboy]

One thing that makes it hard to compare outcomes for MBA's is that below a certain level (M7 being the typical demarcation) getting an MBA is more about moving up in your existing career track than opening up a new one. Even within the M7, it can be very hard for people who don't have finance backgrounds to finance jobs. So for MBA's, the salary stats don't paint the whole picture about the gap between M7 and the rest. Indeed, even at Kellogg, people are mostly on the outside looking in at elite finance jobs. Arguably, the gap between HSW and the rest of the M7 is bigger than the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14.

Not if you actually look at mba salary figures. Wharton grads have parallel outcomes to Sloan or CBS. SBS is the only school that seems to place grads a cut above. MBA employment data is more transparent than ABA law data, and although the schools report differently when you match apples to apples its a wash within the M7 (again with sbs as a maybe exception)

[Tiago Splitter]

One thing that makes it hard to compare outcomes for MBA's is that below a certain level (M7 being the typical demarcation) getting an MBA is more about moving up in your existing career track than opening up a new one. Even within the M7, it can be very hard for people who don't have finance backgrounds to finance jobs. So for MBA's, the salary stats don't paint the whole picture about the gap between M7 and the rest. Indeed, even at Kellogg, people are mostly on the outside looking in at elite finance jobs. Arguably, the gap between HSW and the rest of the M7 is bigger than the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14.

Not if you actually look at mba salary figures. Wharton grads have parallel outcomes to Sloan or CBS. SBS is the only school that seems to place grads a cut above. MBA employment data is more transparent than ABA law data, and although the schools report differently when you match apples to apples its a wash within the M7 (again with sbs as a maybe exception)

If you only use salary data HYS and the rest of the T14 look the same too.

[lecsa]

I think most JD/MBAs do law. It's only at M7 JD/MBA schools were the MBA program has better business options than law options. So I'd imagine that the JD MBA's at Duke or Boalt are going mostly into law.

Are the exit opps from M7 even that good these days? I know M7 grads who ended up going to law school afterwards.

My cousin went to Kellogg ten years ago or but had bouts of unemployment. Not sure M7 is all the hype lawyers think it is. M7 is more selective with respect to work experience requirements, but you don't need good test scores to get in.

[rayiner]

HSW or Bust? --LinkRemoved--

[jenesaislaw]

HSW or Bust? --LinkRemoved--

I've considered business school a few times this past year. My starting point is HS or best.

[jbagelboy]

One thing that makes it hard to compare outcomes for MBA's is that below a certain level (M7 being the typical demarcation) getting an MBA is more about moving up in your existing career track than opening up a new one. Even within the M7, it can be very hard for people who don't have finance backgrounds to finance jobs. So for MBA's, the salary stats don't paint the whole picture about the gap between M7 and the rest. Indeed, even at Kellogg, people are mostly on the outside looking in at elite finance jobs. Arguably, the gap between HSW and the rest of the M7 is bigger than the gap between HYS and the rest of the T14.

Not if you actually look at mba salary figures. Wharton grads have parallel outcomes to Sloan or CBS. SBS is the only school that seems to place grads a cut above. MBA employment data is more transparent than ABA law data, and although the schools report differently when you match apples to apples its a wash within the M7 (again with sbs as a maybe exception)

If you only use salary data HYS and the rest of the T14 look the same too.

I would dispute the comparison. CCN could never match YS clerkship rates. There's a distinct placement power difference there for some elite career tracks, and its a large part of why we place these schools above. If "high finance" positions are most desirable (they tend to be highest paid), they spread 30-35% across the board. Consulting and tech breakdowns are similar. So it's not just general placement, it's even most prestigious type of positions.

[whereskyle]

ftr I think most of the JD-MBA's in my class do not plan on being lawyers at all.

edit: at nu

Met a JD/MBA prospie at NU's ASW. Dude freaked me out with his complete lack of interest in anything related to law. Didn't want to work in law at all, but said, "I want to have a JD for when the next financial collapse comes along."

Eh?