Take the money and Run; YS - CCNH? Forum

[NYSprague]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

So you feel this makes Harvard worth borrowing sticker?
That emo chick wasn't advocating H is worth sticker at the end of the day. Turns out 60,000 in family money and other aid makes a difference.

[Blessedassurance]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

So you feel this makes Harvard worth borrowing sticker?
That emo chick wasn't advocating H is worth sticker at the end of the day. Turns out 60,000 in family money and other aid makes a difference.

when have i ever advocated going to any law school at sticker?

also, for the millionth time. paying sticker is more of a problem at CCN on down. literally half of the students at chicago are paying sticker and subsidizing some other people who answered a few more questions correctly on the lsat and had the foresight to choose an easy major or stay awake and show up in undergrad.

[NYSprague]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

So you feel this makes Harvard worth borrowing sticker?
That emo chick wasn't advocating H is worth sticker at the end of the day. Turns out 60,000 in family money and other aid makes a difference.

when have i ever advocated going to any law school at sticker?

also, for the millionth time. paying sticker is more of a problem at CCN on down. literally half of the students at chicago are paying sticker and subsidizing some other people who answered a few more questions correctly on the lsat and had the foresight to choose an easy major or stay awake and show up in undergrad.

I didn't think you did advocate sticker. I was just checking because I got lost trying to follow the thread.

[Nelson]

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

All this proves is that HLS is a diploma mill. That list is just a function of class size.

[rayiner]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

On a per capita basis Chicago wins on that ranking of partners. Northwestern and Virginia coke close, behind Harvard by about the same margin that Harvard trails Chicago.

[Blessedassurance]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

On a per capita basis Chicago owns on that ranking of partners.

besides my comment being a joke, they don't actually.not without more data. i can see why you think that but you have to have the class sizes of all the schools for each class from 1986 to make that determination.

[rayiner]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

On a per capita basis Chicago owns on that ranking of partners.

besides my comment being a joke, they don't actually.not without more data. i can see why you think that but you have to have the class sizes of all the schools for each class from 1986 to make that determination.

Class sizes at the T14 have been very stable over the last few decades. E.g. Harvard had 500 people in C/O 1953. http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=348014

[Blessedassurance]

this was the full report.

http://www.swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle622seto.pdf

there are numerous problems with that study but this is pretty accurate:

"Are there any schools that are significant feeders in all ten of the largest U.S.
markets? Only one: Harvard." (p. 253).

anyways, it was meant as a joke. this list is silly.

[Blessedassurance]

Class sizes at the T14 have been very stable over the last few decades.

link?

[Bildungsroman]

You're pretty committed to defending this list despite admitting it is stupid.

When you realize that adjusting for class size makes Harvard less impressive on this list, what will your next move be? Talk about how all the Harvard people went on to be POTUS or venture capitalists while the Chicago students were shanking each other to end up at Mayer Brown?

[rayiner]

Class sizes at the T14 have been very stable over the last few decades.

link?

http://webcast-law.uchicago.edu/centenn ... index.html. That's total enrollment. Its 589 now. In other words, for the relevant time, Harvard has been 2.5-3x larger than Chicago. Virginia's current enrollment hit its current 1,100 in 1978: https://www.law.virginia.edu/html/about/timeline.htm

[gatz77]

Assuming additional costs are only like 15k and that you can finish it in 3 years with the JD, can getting a joint degree be a way to hedge your sticker investment? Say a degree in MPH, MPP, MPA stuff like that. The jobs you can get with those degrees aren't probably high paying, but if the costs are minimal would it be worth it to have something to fall back on?

No. Getting a joint degree generally narrows the job pool, not expands it.

Can you elaborate on this post? Genuinely curious.

[UnicornHunter]

Assuming additional costs are only like 15k and that you can finish it in 3 years with the JD, can getting a joint degree be a way to hedge your sticker investment? Say a degree in MPH, MPP, MPA stuff like that. The jobs you can get with those degrees aren't probably high paying, but if the costs are minimal would it be worth it to have something to fall back on?

No. Getting a joint degree generally narrows the job pool, not expands it.

Can you elaborate on this post? Genuinely curious.

0L here, but my understanding is that joint degrees signal that you're a higher flight risk for BigLaw firms. Take someone whose done a couple of FedGov internships in UG and then pursues a JD/MPP. If you're in charge of hiring for a big firm, do you really believe that that person wants to work at your firm, or do you see them as somebody whose likely to jump ship at the earliest opportunity to BigFed?

In general you want your law degree to signal two things: you're smart and you can take abuse/work hard. If you do not have a SPECIFIC objective for getting a joint degree, you just add static to that signal. Firms do not get 160k+benefits+bonus worth of work out of 1st years. They want people who are going to stick around long enough to be profitable, and when they have their pick of generically smart people, why would they take someone who has shown a strong interest in other career paths?

[Holly Golightly]

I've heard that before and it makes sense. That said, the JD/LLMs in international human rights did pretty well at OCI the last couple of years. In that case it gives those students an extra year to bump their GPAs before OCI, too.

[RoyBatty]

The partnership article by a Loyola law professor Seto comes up frequently, when a better study on the same topic was published around the same time by a Stanford GSB prof, Oyer. http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/oyer/wp/rankings.pdf

Oyer's study comes to similar conclusions, with Chicago emerging as the "winner" in partnerships per graduate among BigLaw firms generally and doing well among "elite" firms also. Chicago has always had a reputation for sending people to firms, so this isn't that exciting (except maybe for people looking to show up Harvard). More interesting is the finding that Chicago, Harvard and Yale are clustered at the top with the other top schools trailing well behind.

So, Yale grads demonstrate great success in a field they choose somewhat less often than people at the other top schools, upending the folklore that YLS people are too academic/entitled/important/soft to practice law. They don't just get elite firm jobs, they stick it out and become elite firm partners according to Oyer's numbers. Chicago's success might also combat the notion that its students are too nerdy and weird to become partners and deal with clients.

Other interesting observations (interesting to me, as a partner at a law firm trying to guess who will be good and successful): the NY schools don't do as well, comparatively, despite being big feeders to much of what is BigLaw and, more so, "elite" BigLaw. The common wisdom is also that the NY students are more "presentable" and less bookish, making them good partner candidates. It might just be that the NY firms' leverage models lead to much higher attrition, and since NY students go to NY firms, their relative success doesn't look as good. But YLS grads go to NY, too, as do many Chicago grads. BigLaw is dominated by NY firms and the NY offices of national firms. By the numbers, SLS fares the worst among historically elite schools, when common wisdom might suggest that SLS's numbers should look more like Yale's.

The data is becoming a bit stale, but most partners Oyer looked at in 2008 and 2009 are probably still partners today, which makes it relevant to people looking to get hired by those partners.

[emu42]

Not trying to be a dick or start shit, just honestly curious, to what "numbers" are you referring? Where are you proposing to draw this information about where biglaw associates are headed when they leave, broken down by law school? Other than partner data of course

we already know hls convincingly beats ccn (and s) for academia, and DOMINATES everyone else for partnerships:

patnerships (yes, we all realize the problems with this):

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... where.html

so i'm giving him the choice to come up with any other given exist option he considers "prestigious."

interestingly, nobody ever asks the yalies where they end up. a bunch of them flame out of law altogether. you have been espousing the yale line forever. why don't you provide us with some data concerning yale?

So you feel this makes Harvard worth borrowing sticker?
That emo chick wasn't advocating H is worth sticker at the end of the day. Turns out 60,000 in family money and other aid makes a difference.

harvard at sticker is worth it under some circumstances. if you aren't taking out loans, it's fairly defensible, but i guess that's mostly because if you aren't taking out loans, you're well off financially.

[patogordo]

Other interesting observations (interesting to me, as a partner at a law firm trying to guess who will be good and successful)

when considering someone for partner, how would your committee weight the candidate's law school relative to his/her work at the firm?

[RoyBatty]

About the same weight an NBA GM might assign to a player's college team in deciding what to pay that player after 8 years in the league - nil.

[IAFG]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

[patogordo]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

headhunters PM me daily

[IAFG]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

headhunters PM me daily

I'm secretly hoping this will somehow lead to local counsel work for me.

[patogordo]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

headhunters PM me daily

I'm secretly hoping this will somehow lead to local counsel work for me.

you might need to specialize in malpractice defense

[09042014]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

headhunters PM me daily

I'm secretly hoping this will somehow lead to local counsel work for me.

you might need to specialize in malpractice defense

TLS has one of those now.

[patogordo]

you might need to specialize in malpractice defense

TLS has one of those now.

alphasteve? is that why he's so familiar with godspeed's practice?

[IAFG]

What impact would, oh, I dunno, TLS megaposting have?

headhunters PM me daily

I'm secretly hoping this will somehow lead to local counsel work for me.

you might need to specialize in malpractice defense

yeah not too worried my annoyed bitch schtick will get me in trouble for soliciting referrals