Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

(By the way, where can I find these numbers for other schools?)

Until the official ABA Employment Summary Questionnaire for 2013 is released, you can just Google the law school you want and then look for the "2013 ABA Employment Summary"; schools are required to put this on their sites, so most of them should have it up by now.

No, I know. I'm specifically referring to those salary numbers. Is that just a Northwestern thing?

Yes.

Also, a lot of school funded jobs go into the government category.

[20141023]

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[Princetonlaw68]

Ah... Sorry, I thought you were asking about the % of people going into certain jobs. The salary information can be found on the NALP Reports, which actually include the ABA Employment Summary Reports. This is for last year's data, but here is a thing I made that has a summary of all the schools' salary information.

Thanks for that link, but apparently I can't access it without giving you my email address?

[20141023]

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[Princetonlaw68]

Dammit... sorry, wrong link lol. Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

Thanks a lot. Definitely very helpful.

I still wish all of the schools made the Northwestern chart though :-/

[20141023]

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[Princetonlaw68]

Dammit... sorry, wrong link lol. Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

Thanks a lot. Definitely very helpful.

I still wish all of the schools made the Northwestern chart though :-/

What I made is just a summary... the NALP Reports usually include all of the minute data. For example, here is Harvard's:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... -data.html

Oh I see. Thanks for the info. I guess for some reason they don't put this info in the ABA summaries?

[jbagelboy]

Lol @ GULC 53% reliability. Basically useless numbers from them.

[Princetonlaw68]

Lol @ GULC 53% reliability. Basically useless numbers from them.

I agree, but to their credit, at least they gave that info. 3 of the other T14s don't even tell you what percentage reported salaries, so that's even more useless.

[20141023]

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[jenesaislaw]

Ah... Sorry, I thought you were asking about the % of people going into certain jobs. The salary information can be found on the NALP Reports, which actually include the ABA Employment Summary Reports. This is for last year's data, but here is a thing I made that has a summary of all the schools' salary information.

Actually, the NALP Reports do not include the ABA Employment Summary Reports. The ABA reports break down job and employer types by time and term. NALP does just time (FT/PT) in the summary section, and some term (LT/ST) on the tables. It's confusing and this is why we've stopped making access to the NALP Reports super easy on LST. It's still accessible, but it takes a few clicks. All of the data are available on the school profiles though.

[quote="Princetonlaw68"What I made is just a summary... the NALP Reports usually include all of the minute data. For example, here is Harvard's:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... -data.html

That's not a NALP Report. It's just some of the data from it. HLS seems to think it's above full disclosure.

fwiw, all salary data that have been made public are available on LST for 2010, 2011, and 2012.

[zman]

Most california schools actually had bigger 2014 class than 2013 classes even though total law school enrollment fell from 52,000 to 48,000 for the respective classes. In another words, another year where so many people will flood the cali markets especially if the out of staters keep targeting California..

[rayiner]

Dammit... sorry, wrong link lol. Here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

Thanks a lot. Definitely very helpful.

I still wish all of the schools made the Northwestern chart though :-/

What I made is just a summary... the NALP Reports usually include all of the minute data. For example, here is Harvard's:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/current/care ... -data.html

I think he means the salary distribution (number of reported salaries in each bucket in $20k/year increments). The 25/50/75 numbers along with a percentage reporting let's you make some conservative calculations, but having the actual distribution is more useful.

[thevuch]

what exactly does the business and industry row in the ABA statistics signify? what sort of jobs?

[sublime]

..

[20141023]

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[thevuch]

dude what the hell is with all the these number hacks at the aba and law schools

[20141023]

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[Pneumonia]

Yeah the 35 hours thing is a complete sham.

[racchhell1249]

SPAM

[lawschool22]

I dunno, but as sublime pointed out, if someone works 35 hours a week at Starbucks, then the school gets to count them as being in "full-time, long-term" employment in the "business and industry" category.

This is why the salary info is so important. The dean actually brought this point up at the NU ASW. He gave the salary breakdown of their business category and their JD advantage category, and explained how a large portion of their jobs in those categories are legitimate jobs, which can't be said for many other t14.

[Princetonlaw68]

I dunno, but as sublime pointed out, if someone works 35 hours a week at Starbucks, then the school gets to count them as being in "full-time, long-term" employment in the "business and industry" category.

This is why the salary info is so important. The dean actually brought this point up at the NU ASW. He gave the salary breakdown of their business category and their JD advantage category, and explained how a large portion of their jobs in those categories are legitimate jobs, which can't be said for many other t14.

Yes, because they have so many people with legit work experience going back to the jobs they had before law school, or that experience is helping them get other jobs in that same field. I don't believe that northwestern is this special T14 that gets people non-law jobs while other ones can't...

Which kind of goes back to what I was saying before, how northwestern cleverly gets people who have good work experience to up their stats, stats that would misrepresent probability of outcomes for K-JDs and people that have "not good" WE.

[iliketurtles123]

Probably answered already but there's 40 pages here so I'll ask again

How do you reconcile the employment data given with the NLJ and LST data?
Based on our school's data, 80% of CCN students get a job through EIW (and mass mailing).
However, NLJ shows only 60% or so for CCN

So what happens to the 20%?
When our school tells us that 80% got jobs "through EIW" (and mass mailing), does that means small firm, gov., etc.? So are they just basically saying "80% of our students had an offer DURING 2L year"? Because that's what it sounds like

[Tiago Splitter]

Probably answered already but there's 40 pages here so I'll ask again

How do you reconcile the employment data given with the NLJ and LST data?
Based on our school's data, 80% of CCN students get a job through EIW (and mass mailing).
However, NLJ shows only 60% or so for CCN

So what happens to the 20%?
When our school tells us that 80% got jobs "through EIW" (and mass mailing), does that means small firm, gov., etc.? So are they just basically saying "80% of our students had an offer DURING 2L year"? Because that's what it sounds like

The 80% number includes everyone who got an offer from any kind of office that came to your school's OCI. Could be a smaller firm, government, PI, etc.

The NLJ 250 data and the ABA data are data for graduates. The OCI data you are referring to is for 2L's. Some of those 2L's who get offers from firms and elsewhere will take clerkships, get no-offered, or voluntarily go elsewhere after graduation. So even if 80% of a class was working for an NLJ250 firm during 2L summer we'd expect the percentage of graduates working for NLJ250 firms nine months after graduation to be quite a bit lower.

Finally, the NLJ250 survey is terribly incomplete. A number of firms didn't respond to it and for a number of others certain offices are missing entirely. In 2012, for example, NLJ showed zero associates hired at Paul Weiss and only Davis Polk's Menlo Park office was counted. In other words the NLJ 250 data is pretty much useless once we see the ABA results.

[LRGhost]

I dunno, but as sublime pointed out, if someone works 35 hours a week at Starbucks, then the school gets to count them as being in "full-time, long-term" employment in the "business and industry" category.

This is why the salary info is so important. The dean actually brought this point up at the NU ASW. He gave the salary breakdown of their business category and their JD advantage category, and explained how a large portion of their jobs in those categories are legitimate jobs, which can't be said for many other t14.

Yes, because they have so many people with legit work experience going back to the jobs they had before law school, or that experience is helping them get other jobs in that same field. I don't believe that northwestern is this special T14 that gets people non-law jobs while other ones can't...

Which kind of goes back to what I was saying before, how northwestern cleverly gets people who have good work experience to up their stats, stats that would misrepresent probability of outcomes for K-JDs and people that have "not good" WE.

Work experience isn't as big of a soft as it used to be, but since the data lags, it was at this time. Nevertheless, NU does b-school better than it does law school. The people getting 'business' jobs are largely JD-MBA's. The MBA from NU is a lot more valuable than the JD. It's not that these people strike out at OCI and slump back to consulting or i-banking, it's that they legitimately have better opportunities not being lawyers. I'm sure SOME people with a JD strike out and go back to their old job, but it's not exactly easy to take three years off from MBB, go get a law degree, and then go back and be like "Hey bro, how about that old job of mine?"

I rarely big up my school. I think law school is an absolute scam from the top-down. I also think looking at one year's stats and saying "NU CRUSHES PLACEMENT" is facetious. But when you look at the numbers throughout the years since ITE happened compared to other law schools, NU places more people into 'favorable' outcomes than their ranking suggests. So does Cornell.