Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[Princetonlaw68]

Fine, but if you're saying that you would need to also accept that the Michigan (etc.) percentages are an under-representation of a non-KJDs chances. I don't know if that's true, but that is the implication of what you're arguing.
Edit: Also, GPA doesn't matter more when you have certain kinds of work experience. I don't know what percentage of people at Northwestern this is, but it's going to be a good amount higher than other T14s. These people can be in the bottom third and still be chosen over people with median grades.[/quote]

You do realize that Michigan only has 23% KJD compared to NU's 9% (which is on the extreme end of the scale). I just don't buy that there is some magical thing going on at Northwestern that makes it so grades don't matter, and if you're a KJD at Michigan you will do much better than you would have done at NU.[/quote]


C'mon... You're a smart guy. I think it's pretty clear I never insinuated that grades don't matter...

I also think it's clear I also never said that a KJD at Michigan will do much better than a KJD at Northwestern. Once again, the point is, who knows. I'd prefer Michigan as a KJD.

[lawschool22]

Fine, but if you're saying that you would need to also accept that the Michigan (etc.) percentages are an under-representation of a non-KJDs chances. I don't know if that's true, but that is the implication of what you're arguing.
Edit: Also, GPA doesn't matter more when you have certain kinds of work experience. I don't know what percentage of people at Northwestern this is, but it's going to be a good amount higher than other T14s. These people can be in the bottom third and still be chosen over people with median grades.

You do realize that Michigan only has 23% KJD compared to NU's 9% (which is on the extreme end of the scale). I just don't buy that there is some magical thing going on at Northwestern that makes it so grades don't matter, and if you're a KJD at Michigan you will do much better than you would have done at NU.[/quote]


C'mon... You're a smart guy. I think it's pretty clear I never insinuated that grades don't matter...[/quote]

I was being hyperbolic. But still, do you get what I'm saying? The number of KJDs at those two schools (and the T14 overall) does not vary drastically. If you are a KJD at Michigan you will still be in the minority.

[Tiago Splitter]

Let's tighten up those quoting skills PL68. You're a smart guy.

[Princetonlaw68]

I was being hyperbolic. But still, do you get what I'm saying? The number of KJDs at those two schools (and the T14 overall) does not vary drastically. If you are a KJD at Michigan you will still be in the minority.[/quote]


I get what you're saying, but I do think 9% vs. 23% is a huge difference. My concern is also not any random non-KJDs as competition, it's the ones who have the kind of work experience that is a true and obvious help at OCI. I also think it's possible that of the non-K-JDs at Northwestern, a higer percentage have the "good" work experience than the students at Michigan. Northwestern specifically seeks out these people with the "good" experience, so I'm not just pulling this out of my a$$ (completely). Northwestern's focus on getting students who have work experience that will make them more attractive to firms would make me more scared to go there than UMich (and at the very least, to trust their percentages are good to use for a K-JD). Even if you don't see the 9% vs 23% as that big a difference, which I do.

[Princetonlaw68]

Let's tighten up those quoting skills PL68. You're a smart guy.

Haha. I'll try.

[worldtraveler]

This wouldn't be a problem if people would stop trying to go K-JD. I've never met a person who regrets taking a year or two off, but I know plenty who regret going straight through. If it really concerns you that much, take a year of your life and go do whatever the hell you want.

[lawschool22]

I was being hyperbolic. But still, do you get what I'm saying? The number of KJDs at those two schools (and the T14 overall) does not vary drastically. If you are a KJD at Michigan you will still be in the minority.

I get what you're saying, but I do think 9% vs. 23% is a huge difference. My concern is also not any random non-KJDs as competition, it's the ones who have the kind of work experience that is a true and obvious help at OCI. I also think it's possible that of the non-K-JDs at Northwestern, a higer percentage have the "good" work experience than the students at Michigan. Northwestern specifically seeks out these people with the "good" experience, so I'm not just pulling this out of my a$$ (completely). Northwestern's focus on getting students who have work experience that will make them more attractive to firms would make me more scared to go there than UMich (and at the very least, to trust their percentages are good to use for a K-JD). Even if you don't see the 9% vs 23% as that big a difference, which I do.

You're buying into the marketing. There are plenty of people w/ 1 year of run-of-the-mill WE at Northwestern in the non-KJD category. Also, those people with the awesome WE you're afraid of? Well those same people get admitted to Michigan, Cornell, Duke, etc. and probably chose the school that fits with their goals at a reasonable price. There are going to be people w/ good WE at every T14.

[Princetonlaw68]

I was being hyperbolic. But still, do you get what I'm saying? The number of KJDs at those two schools (and the T14 overall) does not vary drastically. If you are a KJD at Michigan you will still be in the minority.

I get what you're saying, but I do think 9% vs. 23% is a huge difference. My concern is also not any random non-KJDs as competition, it's the ones who have the kind of work experience that is a true and obvious help at OCI. I also think it's possible that of the non-K-JDs at Northwestern, a higer percentage have the "good" work experience than the students at Michigan. Northwestern specifically seeks out these people with the "good" experience, so I'm not just pulling this out of my a$$ (completely). Northwestern's focus on getting students who have work experience that will make them more attractive to firms would make me more scared to go there than UMich (and at the very least, to trust their percentages are good to use for a K-JD). Even if you don't see the 9% vs 23% as that big a difference, which I do.

You're buying into the marketing. There are plenty of people w/ 1 year of run-of-the-mill WE at Northwestern in the non-KJD category. Also, those people with the awesome WE you're afraid of? Well those same people get admitted to Michigan, Cornell, Duke, etc. and probably chose the school that fits with their goals at a reasonable price. There are going to be people w/ good WE at every T14.

Northwestern sometimes takes people that wouldn't get into any other T14 because of their focus on WE. They seem to have a much stronger focus on WE than other schools. I also never said there aren't plenty of people with WE that don't have the kind that helps all that much. I'm only saying that Northwestern seems to have a higher percentage of the people with helpful WE than other T14s. If that percentage is 20% at NU and 5% at other T14s, then it's still a concern, and would cause the percentages to be more misrepresentative of a K-JD's odds than the percentages for other T14s. I may be buying into the marketing, but the marketing isn't necessarily false, and the few facts available to us seem to support it.

[rayiner]

Overall, while it's fair to point out that NU has an advantage in the numbers because of the WE requirement, I don't think the difference is enough to conclude a K-JD would fare better at Michigan. For one thing: it's because of the WE requirement and the JD-MBA class that such a big proportion of NU folks ended up in business/industry, which is not counted in the (firms + clerkships) statistic as being a good outcome. The gap between Michigan and NU is more like 14% if you look at just the JD class. Of course, it's fair to point out that if you account for JD-MBA's at NU, you also need to account for PI/Gov folks at Michigan.

Which leads me to what I guess is my real point: it's stupid to argue over +/- 5% differences in these metrics, because they can largely be explained by inter-school peculiarities. JD-MBA's at NU and Penn or public interest people at Berkeley or Michigan, government-focused people at UVA, etc. "Placement" is a dumb reason to choose between schools in this range. Just go to whichever school gives you the most money.

[09042014]

Northwestern takes low-GPA splitters and uses work experience as a filter to find candidates within that pool. The work experience helps these candidates, but I'd bet that their disproportionately lower UGPA's hurts them too.

Eh most firms don't care about low UGPA because they don't even know about it. Hurts us engineerings though.

[lawschool22]

"Placement" is a dumb reason to choose between schools in this range. Just go to whichever school gives you the most money.

Amen

[Princetonlaw68]

"Placement" is a dumb reason to choose between schools in this range. Just go to whichever school gives you the most money.

Amen

I agree.

[Blessedassurance]

how much does berkeley cost these days?

[cotiger]

how much does berkeley cost these days?

It's a quick google search away..

[Blessedassurance]

how much does berkeley cost these days?

It's a quick google search away..

it's rhetorical...

[cotiger]

how much does berkeley cost these days?

It's a quick google search away..

it's rhetorical...

I mean, I get it, but it's not like Berkeley's placement power or whatever has gone down, so it's more like how expensive are all of these schools these days?

Fwiw, Berkeley's tuition is the cheapest T14.

[Princetonlaw68]

how much does berkeley cost these days?

It's a quick google search away..

it's rhetorical...

I mean, I get it, but it's not like Berkeley's placement power or whatever has gone down, so it's more like how expensive are all of these schools these days?

Fwiw, Berkeley's tuition is the cheapest T14.

Not for out-of-staters

[aboutmydaylight]

Not for out-of-staters

Second cheapest to Georgetown (maybe not for this coming year). Problem is Berkeley is super expensive COL and its not like its a nice area. Bay Area is $$$.

[Blessedassurance]

I mean, I get it, but it's not like Berkeley's placement power or whatever has gone down, so it's more like how expensive are all of these schools these days?

i haven't gone through the thread in a while to see whatever latest excuses people have proferred but doesn't berkeley have worse numbers than the rest of the t14 excepting gulc? let me guess, pi?

i'm also fairly certain that coa at berkeley is higher than a lot of schools in the t14...

half the thread was spent shitting on michigan and gulc, and it turns out berkeley is slightly worse than michigan and slightly better than gulc...

[20141023]

.

[rayiner]

Law school needs to be 2 years, like an MBA. That would reduce revenue per student by say $55k, but would reduce the cost of school by $75-80k + interest. Reducing cost by cutting the third year, instead of by offering ever-larger scholarship amounts to reduce effective tuition, has a smaller impact on school revenues to achieve the same reduction in COA. Lifting the work restrictions and allowing students to work during the year to offset COL would also reduce COA without impacting school revenues.

[09042014]

That and faculty need to be majorly trimmed. Why are there are like 1 faculty for ever 9 students but 1L sections are like 65-100 people. Fuck that noise. Faculty to student should be way higher.

[Tiago Splitter]

AJD and 3 year JD/MBA programs make me skeptical that cutting out a year of school will reduce total tuition in any way.

[cotiger]

Law school needs to be 2 years, like an MBA. That would reduce revenue per student by say $55k, but would reduce the cost of school by $75-80k + interest. Reducing cost by cutting the third year, instead of by offering ever-larger scholarship amounts to reduce effective tuition, has a smaller impact on school revenues to achieve the same reduction in COA. Lifting the work restrictions and allowing students to work during the year to offset COL would also reduce COA without impacting school revenues.

I don't know if that would really lower the cost to the student, though. Schools aren't really pricing at cost (which, as non-profit educational institutions, they probably should), they're pricing in relation to the market. Sure, that might make it cheaper for a couple of years, as schools would be reluctant to jack up prices by 50% in one go, but ultimately I think it'd get back to where it was before pretty quickly.

It would, though, save on a year of COL and foregone income.

[cotiger]

That and faculty need to be majorly trimmed. Why are there are like 1 faculty for ever 9 students but 1L sections are like 65-100 people. Fuck that noise. Faculty to student should be way higher.

Seriously. Apparently professors teach literally half as many classes as they did 30 years ago. Wtf is that?

They're probably paid much better now, too.