Class of 2013 Employment Data Forum

[lawschool22]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

I agree, but I could've sworn I read someone post before that students at every school are told these numbers, but are threatened with huge trouble if they were to decide to post them anywhere. Am I completely wrong?

If I am wrong, then why wouldn't we have most of the numbers by now? Surely there's at least one person from most (if not all) of the T14s who is a TLSer that would gladly post these stats for their respective schools. ???

I mean it should be an ABA-required disclosure. I do think you're right, but I'm pretty sure it varies by school. I have seen Columbia's data, but I don't think it's standard across all schools.

[Tiago Splitter]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

I agree, but I could've sworn I read someone post before that students at every school are told these numbers, but are threatened with huge consequences if they were to decide to post them anywhere. Am I completely wrong?

If I am wrong, then why wouldn't we have most of the numbers by now? Surely there's at least one person from most (if not all) of the T14s who is a TLSer that would gladly post these stats for their respective schools. ???

I actually don't know where I'd find those stats for CLS. I think we were told them at EIP orientation last April but I doubt they're published anywhere. 1L's be on the lookout.

Also I updated Vandy's page in the OP, but the numbers were right.

[cotiger]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

I agree, but I could've sworn I read someone post before that students at every school are told these numbers, but are threatened with huge trouble if they were to decide to post them anywhere. Am I completely wrong?

If I am wrong, then why wouldn't we have most of the numbers by now? Surely there's at least one person from most (if not all) of the T14s who is a TLSer that would gladly post these stats for their respective schools. ???

I mean it should be an ABA-required disclosure. I do think you're right, but I'm pretty sure it varies by school. I have seen Columbia's data, but I don't think it's standard across all schools.

UChi people report theirs as being 80%+

[Princetonlaw68]

Those numbers should be required to be disclosed. They're arguably some of the most important stats we could have for evaluating schools.

I agree, but I could've sworn I read someone post before that students at every school are told these numbers, but are threatened with huge trouble if they were to decide to post them anywhere. Am I completely wrong?

If I am wrong, then why wouldn't we have most of the numbers by now? Surely there's at least one person from most (if not all) of the T14s who is a TLSer that would gladly post these stats for their respective schools. ???

I mean it should be an ABA-required disclosure. I do think you're right, but I'm pretty sure it varies by school. I have seen Columbia's data, but I don't think it's standard across all schools.

I concur.

[SLS_AMG]

OCI had the information and posted it on slides for 1Ls. I wasn't where it was presented, but heard the information from a 1L. I just asked the friend and she told me they made no mention of keeping the information private. It's also not perfect information. EIW is all large law firms plus boutique firms like Keker & Van Nest. There's a later program, FIP, that's gov't, PI, and also small law firms. My understanding is that the 58 number was from EIW only, and the combined number would be considerably higher, but not sure what it is.

[froglee]

There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad and don't have a handle on the grade inflation. I know a number of bottom quarter people at NU that got firm jobs.
.

"There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad" and this firms most likely will get floods of resumes from T14 grads.

[rayiner]

There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad and don't have a handle on the grade inflation. I know a number of bottom quarter people at NU that got firm jobs.
.

"There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad" and this firms most likely will get floods of resumes from T14 grads.

You're leaving out a key piece of context in the bit you quoted:

I disagree that 0L's should worry about "grade cut offs" for big law, because that's largely flame. Yes, firms have cut-offs, but the data isn't widely disclosed. Outside the bottom 10%, grades will not be an absolute bar to getting big law at a T14. There are just tons of secondary market firms that are happy to get a T14 grad and don't have a handle on the grade inflation. I know a number of bottom quarter people at NU that got firm jobs.

I'm not saying that anyone who strikes out at a major market can just get a secondary market big law job. I'm saying that bad grades will not, by itself, preclude you from getting a firm job, because a lot of secondary market firms just don't register the bad grades when the bulk of their applications are from T100 schools where a 3.1 is a good GPA. It doesn't mean you'll get the job, just that the firms aren't going to throw out your application based on some "cut off." And if you stand out from the pile in other ways, you can definitely get the job.

As a general rule, people overestimate how much grades matter because they over-estimate the degree to which students will nail the soft parts of the job search (applying aggressively, interviewing well, etc). They think that if a school places 65% big law + clerkships, the "cut off" must be around top 70%. In reality, it's more like top 80-90%.

Also, the quote was from a discussion about comparing grade "cut offs" at different law schools. This suggests the idea that maybe the "cut off" is top 60% at Michigan and say top 70% at Duke. Again, that's totally the wrong way to look at things. Placement differences in the lower-T14 are driven mostly by class size, how many firms are at OCI, firm-specific hiring preferences, existence of a local market, year-to-year randomness, etc.

[Princetonlaw68]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

Also only 9% of NWs class is KJD

[Princetonlaw68]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

Also only 9% of NWs class is KJD

Thank you for adding to my point. I didn't have that info. I would be very scared to be part of that 9%. Definitely more scared than I would be to be a KJD at Michigan. I think this is at odds with what seems to be the opinion of many people on this site.

[lawschool22]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

This is a bit overstated on TLS. I have spoken to several current and former students who have said a large majority of the "non-KJDs" have about a year or so of WE, and not all of it is awesome WE or anything. Obviously NU does have more WE as a whole, and yes K-JDs might be at a "slight" disadvantage, but I don't want to oversell the kind and amount of WE we are talking about here. It's probably not *that* significant.

[LawStudents42014]

The ABA has an interesting spreadsheet of employment summary data.
Too bad the most recent report was from 2012.

Enjoy anyway, it's actually very useful if you open the summary report for all law schools.
Type of employment and number of employed grads are the best takeaways.
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

[lawschool22]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

Also only 9% of NWs class is KJD

Thank you for adding to my point. I didn't have that info. I would be very scared to be part of that 9%. Definitely more scared than I would be to be a KJD at Michigan. I think this is at odds with what seems to be the opinion of many people on this site.

But then that would mean a non-KJD would do even better at Michigan than a Northwestern? I don't know if that's the case...

[09042014]

Just a warning to KJDs about Northwestern: Northwestern specifically looks for people with relevant work experience; the same kind of work experience that employers look for. If you don't have it, your chances are not as good as those who do. I've been seeing a lot of people celebrating the great numbers that Northwestern has, but I think they are an extreme misrepresentation of a KJD's chances of obtaining big law from there. I would argue that many of the other T14s with lesser numbers, like Cornell, Michigan, and Berkely, could be a better bet for a KJD than Northwestern because of this fact. At Northwestern, your competition is going to be a bunch of people with relevant work experience, who have resumes that would destroy any KJD. At most other T14s, these people are few and far between. Looking at the numbers alone is great, but lets not forget about other variables that could make getting big law from one school trickier than getting it from another. I would argue that a KJD could very well be better off going to Michigan than Northwestern because of this fact alone. It's too much of an unknown when deciding how good a shot you have at Northwestern compared to other schools.

This is a bit overstated on TLS. I have spoken to several current and former students who have said a large majority of the "non-KJDs" have about a year or so of WE, and not all of it is awesome WE or anything. Obviously NU does have more WE as a whole, and yes K-JDs might be at a "slight" disadvantage, but I don't want to oversell the kind and amount of WE we are talking about here. It's probably not *that* significant.

And even if you are at a disadvantage, you'd have the same disadvantage at Michigan. It's the same firms going to U of M that go to Northwestern. It's not like Jones Day loves WE at Northwestern OCI then doesn't care at U of M.

[Princetonlaw68]

But then that would mean a non-KJD would do even better at Michigan than a Northwestern? I don't know if that's the case...[/quote]


I'm definitely not saying that at all. That would be the move I'd make because I would feel more comfortable with my chances, but that's just me. The main point I'm making is that it's arguable.

[Princetonlaw68]

And even if you are at a disadvantage, you'd have the same disadvantage at Michigan. It's the same firms going to U of M that go to Northwestern. It's not like Jones Day loves WE at Northwestern OCI then doesn't care at U of M.[/quote]


Yes, but I'm just saying the percentages for Michigan are probably a lot more on target with a KJD's chances than the percentages for Northwestern. Also, maybe it is different firms? Maybe Northwestern does attract the firms that are looking for people with work experience more? I don't know

[lawschool22]

But then that would mean a non-KJD would do even better at Michigan than a Northwestern? I don't know if that's the case...

I'm definitely not saying that at all. That would be the move I'd make because I would feel more comfortable with my chances, but that's just me. The main point I'm making is that it's arguable.[/quote]

I mean I guess I could see what you're trying to say. That if a firm has X number of slots at a given school, you would rather be at a school where your WE doesn't look worse in comparison. But you're assuming that firms have the same number of slots across they board. They may choose to hire more students at NU because they like the WE, and fewer at Michigan (not saying this is the case), in which case you wouldn't really have any additional advantage.

I would agree with you that it is important that your comfort level be considered, but I think there are numerous other factors you should consider over the % of K-JDs at a school.

[worldtraveler]

You're probably not getting accepted to NU as a k-jd anyway unless there is some special snowflakeness going on, so it's not like this is a dilemma that many 0Ls will face.

[Princetonlaw68]

But then that would mean a non-KJD would do even better at Michigan than a Northwestern? I don't know if that's the case...

I'm definitely not saying that at all. That would be the move I'd make because I would feel more comfortable with my chances, but that's just me. The main point I'm making is that it's arguable.

I mean I guess I could see what you're trying to say. That if a firm has X number of slots at a given school, you would rather be at a school where your WE doesn't look worse in comparison. But you're assuming that firms have the same number of slots across they board. They may choose to hire more students at NU because they like the WE, and fewer at Michigan (not saying this is the case), in which case you wouldn't really have any additional advantage.

I would agree with you that it is important that your comfort level be considered, but I think there are numerous other factors you should consider over the % of K-JDs at a school.[/quote]

Yes, definitely. I'm just saying at the very least, the % of K-JDs should be a consideration (and it seems like most people don't consider this), especially when looking at Northwestern. The percentages for Northwestern are more of a misrepresentation of a K-JD's chances than the percentages for other schools, like Michigan.

[lawschool22]

You're probably not getting accepted to NU as a k-jd anyway unless there is some special snowflakeness going on, so it's not like this is a dilemma that many 0Ls will face.

Yeah, good point.

[lawschool22]

Yes, definitely. I'm just saying at the very least, the % of K-JDs should be a consideration (and it seems like most people don't consider this), especially when looking at Northwestern. The percentages for Northwestern are more of a misrepresentation of a K-JD's chances than the percentages for other schools, like Michigan.

Fine, but if you're saying that you would need to also accept that the Michigan (etc.) percentages are an under-representation of a non-KJDs chances. I don't know if that's true, but that is the implication of what you're arguing.

At the end of the day I think we can trust the overall percentages, and just live with the fact that there will be variation for each individual. That's due to WE, but other things like soft factors, etc. Also, grades are going to matter more than all this anyway.

[Princetonlaw68]

Yes, definitely. I'm just saying at the very least, the % of K-JDs should be a consideration (and it seems like most people don't consider this), especially when looking at Northwestern. The percentages for Northwestern are more of a misrepresentation of a K-JD's chances than the percentages for other schools, like Michigan.

Fine, but if you're saying that you would need to also accept that the Michigan (etc.) percentages are an under-representation of a non-KJDs chances. I don't know if that's true, but that is the implication of what you're arguing.

At the end of the day I think we can trust the overall percentages, and just live with the fact that there will be variation for each individual. That's due to WE, but other things like soft factors, etc. Also, grades are going to matter more than all this anyway.

I would say the amount that it's detracting from your chances at the other schools is comparable, but at Northwestern it detracts much more. I still hold my point that Northwestern's percentages should not be trusted as much as the other schools. (For K-JDs)

Edit: Also, GPA doesn't matter more when you have certain kinds of work experience. I don't know what percentage of people at Northwestern this is, but it's going to be a good amount higher than other T14s. These people can be in the bottom third and still be chosen over people with median grades.

[Tiago Splitter]

The ABA has an interesting spreadsheet of employment summary data.
Too bad the most recent report was from 2012.

Enjoy anyway, it's actually very useful if you open the summary report for all law schools.
Type of employment and number of employed grads are the best takeaways.
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

This thread exists because the ABA has yet to update their site with the 2013 numbers. But thanks.

[OhScalia]

Vandy is 48% employment, not 45%.

Vanderbilt: 35.9 + 9.2 = 45.1%

Biglaw: (17 + 15 + 42 = 74) / 206 graduates = 35.9%

Fed clerk: 19 / 206 = 9.2%


Also the OP has Cornell's stats link for Vandy's page, here is the Vandy 2013 page.

I don't know what sort of fuzzy math I was doing. You are right!!!

[lawschool22]

Yes, definitely. I'm just saying at the very least, the % of K-JDs should be a consideration (and it seems like most people don't consider this), especially when looking at Northwestern. The percentages for Northwestern are more of a misrepresentation of a K-JD's chances than the percentages for other schools, like Michigan.

Fine, but if you're saying that you would need to also accept that the Michigan (etc.) percentages are an under-representation of a non-KJDs chances. I don't know if that's true, but that is the implication of what you're arguing.

At the end of the day I think we can trust the overall percentages, and just live with the fact that there will be variation for each individual. That's due to WE, but other things like soft factors, etc. Also, grades are going to matter more than all this anyway.

I would say the amount that it's detracting from your chances at the other schools is comparable, but at Northwestern it detracts much more. I still hold my point that Northwestern's percentages should not be trusted as much as the other schools. (For K-JDs)

Edit: Also, GPA doesn't matter more when you have certain kinds of work experience. I don't know what percentage of people at Northwestern this is, but it's going to be a good amount higher than other T14s. These people can be in the bottom third and still be chosen over people with median grades.

You do realize that Michigan only has 23% KJD compared to NU's 9% (which is on the extreme end of the scale). I just don't buy that there is some magical thing going on at Northwestern that makes it so grades don't matter, and if you're a KJD at Michigan you will do much better than you would have done at NU.