Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[TheSpanishMain]

I agree that they are failing to do basic research, but the question is why. And the answer is that they don't think that they need to, and it seems sensible to them. A lot of these kids are probably first-generation college students. They don't know any lawyers, but they know TV. And they don't have any other viable white-collar employment options. And at age 22 they are essentially being asked to mortgage their futures by, on the one hand, what they know and assume is a respected institution of higher ed, and on the other, a bunch of faceless posters on an online forum.

This may be where we just have to disagree. Going to law school is a big decision. If you're contemplating it and you don't think, "Maybe I should do some real research instead of just making assumptions based on TV/my boomer parents", then I think you share a healthy portion of the blame if you put yourself in a shitty situation. You can't be expected to know stuff right off the bat, but you should at least know what you don't know and recognize the importance of making an informed decision.

Although I'd like to think TLS and LST have an impact, in truth I think most of the decline in applicants is due to just the massive amount of press this issues has gotten that is changing the common wisdom for some students. When the default option switches from "go" to "don't go" that doesn't mean students are doing more research or better analysis, it just means the culture is changing. But it's not changing all at once in all places, and you get schools like ITLS or the folks on the LawLemmings feed.

If you Google Indiana Tech, you get returns from TLS and AboveTheLaw. I don't think TLS is going to fix the problem, but I'd be surprised if at least a few people (besides the OP) weren't dissuaded from attending based on stuff they read here.

Come on man, just think about all the people you know. Would you really trust the average kid in your HS graduating class to be able to properly evaluate this decision? Would you be able to trust yourself, before you found TLS?

My high school class? No, probably not, but people don't go HS->LS anyway. My undergraduate class? Not entirely, but more so than high school. The point is that the balance of responsibility shifts as you age/mature/are educated. An 18 year old would be much less to blame for making a dumb decision than a 22 year old with four years of higher education. At a certain point society is allowed to stop treating you with kid gloves.

To the second part of your point, making fun of the existing students does not really tell lurkers all this. It just seems like you're getting your jollies. And, believe me, unless you're going to Yale, you might very well end up in the same place in the end.

Let me clarify something: I'm not accusing the ITLS students of moral failings. I'm not saying they are bad people. What I'm saying is that they are making a dumb decision and we are allowed to describe it as such. But yes, I acknowledge that TLS is not just dispassionate information and there is some shit talking/internet tomfoolery.

Just to reiterate, I'm not sure how my speculation about why someone might be a law student with a part time job at Pizza Hut became some kind of beyond the Pale insult. I'm not looking down on anyone who works a part time job.

[daleearnhardt123]

It's weird that my post prompted this, since I was just speculating on reasons someone might be working at Pizza Hut and still be a student at ITT. I do think it's fine to make fun of these people, though. I also think it's fine to make fun of someone going to law school, T14 included, at sticker.

What is the point of making fun of them other than for your own amusement?

Dissuading others from doing the same.

I suppose the underlying belief here is that the students aren't entirely blameless in all this. Sure, they're less to blame than the boomer deans taking advantage of them, but they're still spectacularly failing to do basic research before investing years of their lives and quite a bit of money. It's sort of the same reason I roll my eyes when people refer to law students as "kids", as in "twelve kids from Duke got SAs there last year." I know it's a silly thing to be annoyed by, but I don't feel like it's unfair to the students to subject their decisions to an adult level of scrutiny. If they were 14, sure, they'd be 100% the victims here. They're old enough to buy booze, join the military, marry, and buy fireworks. They're old enough that we can expect a little more from them. They're adults, and college educated ones at that.

But yes, I admit sometimes I laugh at a pond cummings joke for no reason other than it makes me laugh, not because it serves some greater good.

I agree that they are failing to do basic research, but the question is why. And the answer is that they don't think that they need to, and it seems sensible to them. A lot of these kids are probably first-generation college students. They don't know any lawyers, but they know TV. And they don't have any other viable white-collar employment options. And at age 22 they are essentially being asked to mortgage their futures by, on the one hand, what they know and assume is a respected institution of higher ed, and on the other, a bunch of faceless posters on an online forum.

Although I'd like to think TLS and LST have an impact, in truth I think most of the decline in applicants is due to just the massive amount of press this issues has gotten that is changing the common wisdom for some students. When the default option switches from "go" to "don't go" that doesn't mean students are doing more research or better analysis, it just means the culture is changing. But it's not changing all at once in all places, and you get schools like ITLS or the folks on the LawLemmings feed.

Come on man, just think about all the people you know. Would you really trust the average kid in your HS graduating class to be able to properly evaluate this decision? Would you be able to trust yourself, before you found TLS?

To the second part of your point, making fun of the existing students does not really tell lurkers all this. It just seems like you're getting your jollies. And, believe me, unless you're going to Yale, you might very well end up in the same place in the end.

I don't understand how you could write the bolded without realizing what you're saying. TLS and LST aren't dissuading people, but the press is???!??! WHAT?!
1. TLS and LST are PART of the 21st century "press"
2. TLS and LST are responsible for a lot of what makes it into the CONVENTIONAL press! Even by reading just THIS thread you'd have realized that!!

[ymmv]

God can we go back to making dick jokes about cummings. This whole aspie moralist thread derail got old before it even started.

[beachbum]

God can we go back to making dick jokes about cummings. This whole aspie moralist thread derail got old before it even started.

But is attacking the posters here really the best way to dissuade them from having these discussions? Are they even at fault, or should we blame the nit-picky/e-peen-measuring TLS culture? Or, should we (can we?) expect them to conduct a proper forum search before investing in the argument, thus exposing them to the dozens of times this same debate has been held in the past?

I'm just asking questions, man.

[timbs4339]

I don't understand how you could write the bolded without realizing what you're saying. TLS and LST aren't dissuading people, but the press is???!??! WHAT?!
1. TLS and LST are PART of the 21st century "press"
2. TLS and LST are responsible for a lot of what makes it into the CONVENTIONAL press! Even by reading just THIS thread you'd have realized that!!

I was unclear. The decision-tree analysis that experienced posters in this part of the forum know intuitively is not the conventional wisdom and is probably not how most applicants approach law school.

TLS was actually well behind the curve in terms of discontent with the system. It began with the old scambloggers, starting around 2006. Their stories (200K in debt, working at Wendy's) and their invective (which makes this thread look like a country club tea party) made good copy. Enough of those stories boiled up (around 2010-12) so that the common wisdom is now changing. But I doubt the average applicant is even aware of basic facts like "most schools don't average retakes" or "you can negotiate your scholarship offers" that are just central to any informed, rational law school decision.

[timbs4339]

This may be where we just have to disagree. Going to law school is a big decision. If you're contemplating it and you don't think, "Maybe I should do some real research instead of just making assumptions based on TV/my boomer parents", then I think you share a healthy portion of the blame if you put yourself in a shitty situation. You can't be expected to know stuff right off the bat, but you should at least know what you don't know and recognize the importance of making an informed decision.

Not jumping off a cliff is a big decision, but you don't do research on that, do you? My point is that something can be a big decision (in that it has a big impact) and still not produce measured consideration of the various outcomes. For some people, the idea of foregoing admission to any law school is like not jumping off a cliff. It requires them to challenge 22 years of assumptions about the world. I'm not sure how you can fault people for accepting the conventional wisdom- it's like blaming someone who was born in 1935 for their lung cancer because they should have known smoking was bad.

To be clear, I wish for a perfect world where applicants challenged the assumptions about higher education that they'd been fed all their lives. That means I probably wouldn't have 2500 posts on this forum. But that just isn't how it works. I think in 20 years people are going to treat colleges like they treat used car salesmen, but right now the culture hasn't made it all the way.

If you Google Indiana Tech, you get returns from TLS and AboveTheLaw. I don't think TLS is going to fix the problem, but I'd be surprised if at least a few people (besides the OP) weren't dissuaded from attending based on stuff they read here.

I'd hope so, but I think the number is much smaller than the people who've seen a bunch of NYT articles and gotten the impression LAW SCHOOL = BAD.

My high school class? No, probably not, but people don't go HS->LS anyway. My undergraduate class? Not entirely, but more so than high school. The point is that the balance of responsibility shifts as you age/mature/are educated. An 18 year old would be much less to blame for making a dumb decision than a 22 year old with four years of higher education. At a certain point society is allowed to stop treating you with kid gloves.

IME, four years incubation in what passes for college doesn't do much for anyone's critical thinking and reasoning skills or even teach them the basic financial concepts they need to properly evaluate the magnitude of this decision. I agree that optimally the balance of responsibility should shift, but in the law school complex, people are essentially being asked to mortgage their futures at age 22. That is, I think, too much responsibility, too fast. No other nation on Earth does it this way for a good reason.

Just to reiterate, I'm not sure how my speculation about why someone might be a law student with a part time job at Pizza Hut became some kind of beyond the Pale insult. I'm not looking down on anyone who works a part time job.

There's certainly a line between tough love and being insulting. And god knows a lot of people take what is measured, good advice here and interpret it as a personal insult. I just don't think it serves much purpose mocking people who have already taken the plunge and who obviously aren't around to get any sort of advice from the forum.

[HRomanus]

The only substantive difference between an ITLS student and the vast majority of 1Ls is the difference in GPA and/or LSAT. Some in this discussion seem to assume that these students were looking at quality schools and the evil ITLS administratorss consumed them with lies and trickery. Rather, I seriously doubt that ITLS students had many (if any) other options. ITLS and fellow TTTs and TTTTs just validate unqualified students' desires to attend law school. For the future of these students, it sucks that these schools exist. But ultimately it's the students who are failing to do any amount of research and/or to make wise decisions.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Telling someone "You are a fucking idiot for even considering this school" is a lot more effective, to me, than saying "Tech is a bad idea and here's why." A lot of people won't listen to pesky facts, statistics, and undeniable probabilities. They are dumb and making bad decisions. They need to be told that bluntly. If they can't be dissuaded by objective evidence, then hopefully ridicule and being ostracized will work. I genuinely do not want these anonymous, unknown people to make the financially disastrous decision of attending the fraudulent shithole that is Tech. So hopefully telling them that they are fucking idiots for even considering the school will dissuade them.

I actually disagree with this, at least as an initial strategy. I think it's possible to explain how bad a decision is without calling the person a fucking idiot, and that ridicule/ostracization from strangers on the internet just makes them think strangers on the internet are assholes. I think there are plenty of conversations that escalate to "you're a fucking idiot" perfectly appropriately, but I don't think it's usually a great place to start.

(That's a personal opinion, not a mod statement.)

[moonman157]

Telling someone "You are a fucking idiot for even considering this school" is a lot more effective, to me, than saying "Tech is a bad idea and here's why." A lot of people won't listen to pesky facts, statistics, and undeniable probabilities. They are dumb and making bad decisions. They need to be told that bluntly. If they can't be dissuaded by objective evidence, then hopefully ridicule and being ostracized will work. I genuinely do not want these anonymous, unknown people to make the financially disastrous decision of attending the fraudulent shithole that is Tech. So hopefully telling them that they are fucking idiots for even considering the school will dissuade them.

I actually disagree with this, at least as an initial strategy. I think it's possible to explain how bad a decision is without calling the person a fucking idiot, and that ridicule/ostracization from strangers on the internet just makes them think strangers on the internet are assholes. I think there are plenty of conversations that escalate to "you're a fucking idiot" perfectly appropriately, but I don't think it's usually a great place to start.

(That's a personal opinion, not a mod statement.)

Agree with this completely. Basically, when people are researching employment numbers and such (and I do think people do more research than people ITT are suggesting, even ones that go to TTTs and TTTTs), they are receiving information from two conflicting camps. One camp is the TLS/LST crowd, largely made up of students attending very prestigious schools, telling them they're fucking idiots for considering schools like Indiana Tech. The other camp, made up largely of law school deans and shitboomers, are telling them how they're still smart and deserve a chance at happiness and a fulfilling career and that it's still possible. Now, the prospective student has to decide which camp to listen to: the anonymous stranger online who tells him he's a fucking idiot, or the successful attorney who tells him he's smart. Which side do you think they'll listen to?

It's like people who claim that they make fun of fat people to encourage them to lose weight (which was just proven to be counterproductive). You can say you're doing it for someone else's benefit, but really it's only for your own amusement. TLS has been and continue to be an incredibly valuable resource in dissuading people from choosing bad law schools, but posters who viciously mock people considering lower-ranked schools risk making it worse.

[transferror]

Agree with this completely. Basically, when people are researching employment numbers and such (and I do think people do more research than people ITT are suggesting, even ones that go to TTTs and TTTTs), they are receiving information from two conflicting camps. One camp is the TLS/LST crowd, largely made up of students attending very prestigious schools, telling them they're fucking idiots for considering schools like Indiana Tech. The other camp, made up largely of law school deans and shitboomers, are telling them how they're still smart and deserve a chance at happiness and a fulfilling career and that it's still possible. Now, the prospective student has to decide which camp to listen to: the anonymous stranger online who tells him he's a fucking idiot, or the successful attorney who tells him he's smart. Which side do you think they'll listen to?

This is completely true. I got roped in to TTT mantra - specialty rankings, anecdotes, etc... - because some of my college professors, and hell even my pre-law advisor, were graduates of the local TTT. All of the mentors/leadership in my life were giving advice in direct conflict with the shitblogs. I read thirdtierreality and campos, but at the end of the day, I trusted the people I had known for years, several of whom were writing my letters of rec. and all of whom were success stories. It doesn't mean I should be excused for drinking the koolaid, but it's easier to fall into that trap than some of you would think.

Edit: lol at third.tier.reality = T14 paradise

[timbs4339]

Agree with this completely. Basically, when people are researching employment numbers and such (and I do think people do more research than people ITT are suggesting, even ones that go to TTTs and TTTTs), they are receiving information from two conflicting camps. One camp is the TLS/LST crowd, largely made up of students attending very prestigious schools, telling them they're fucking idiots for considering schools like Indiana Tech. The other camp, made up largely of law school deans and shitboomers, are telling them how they're still smart and deserve a chance at happiness and a fulfilling career and that it's still possible. Now, the prospective student has to decide which camp to listen to: the anonymous stranger online who tells him he's a fucking idiot, or the successful attorney who tells him he's smart. Which side do you think they'll listen to?

This is completely true. I got roped in to TTT mantra - specialty rankings, anecdotes, etc... - because some of my college professors, and hell even my pre-law advisor, were graduates of the local TTT. All of the mentors/leadership in my life were giving advice in direct conflict with the shitblogs. I read T14 Paradise and campos, but at the end of the day, I trusted the people I had known for years, several of whom were writing my letters of rec. and all of whom were success stories. It doesn't mean I should be excused for drinking the koolaid, but it's easier to fall into that trap than some of you would think.

Edit: lol at third.tier.reality = T14 paradise

If we are sharing shitty shitboomer stories, I had one professor (who actually helped me out the most with editing my PS) who suggested I attend a literal T4 on full scholarship and then do an LLM at Harvard because it would be like the same thing as going there in the first place.

I had a 175/3.8, and ended up getting admitted at Columbia with a half-scholly. I know there's some alternate universe where I took that advice. Wonder what happened to that guy.

[jk148706]

.

[ManoftheHour]

pond cummings

[NYSprague]

They are looking for a new Dean, not giving up yet.

[071816]

They are looking for a new Dean, not giving up yet.

where do i apply?

[Mack.Hambleton]

pond cummings

more like pond scummings am i rite

alternatively pond scammings

[It's A Lion]

They are looking for a new Dean, not giving up yet.

where do i apply?

--LinkRemoved--

[071816]

They are looking for a new Dean, not giving up yet.

where do i apply?

--LinkRemoved--

Thanks. Wish me luck. I'll let you guys know if I get the job.

[cron1834]

Some of us should apply, for fun.

[North]

Some of us should apply, for fun.

So much quality trolling can be done here.

[071816]

Some of us should apply, for fun.

I already did.

[03152016]

no one with a modicum of self-respect would volunteer to captain this modern-day hindenburg
my guess is they end up making a job posting on craigslist
given the fact that they'll be closed soon, they might as well just hire a day laborer for $10 an hour and save the university some dough

[071816]

no one with a modicum of self-respect would volunteer to captain this modern-day hindenburg
my guess is they end up making a job posting on craigslist
given the fact that they'll be closed soon, they might as well just hire a day laborer for $10 an hour and save the university some dough

I want a piece of the action before they shut the joint down. But, for what it's worth, I don't have a single modicum of self-respect.

[It's A Lion]

Although I think they might promote from within (hip hop dean), I wish chimp godspeed.

[071816]

Although I think they might promote from within (hip hop dean), I wish chimp godspeed.

Thank you sir/madam.