Harvard v. Columbia (Butler) v. NYU (Vanderbilt) v. Chicago (Rubenstein) Forum

[jbagelboy]

As a rule of thumb though paying sticker for a T14 vs free ride at a non-T14 is a much tougher decision than the easy choice of HYS v $$$ at CCN.

yea, these two decisions are not remotely comparable (unless the T14 is Georgetown and the non-T14 is Vanderbilt or UT)

[canafsa]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

Being in a nearly identical position, I've spoken to a bunch of Harvard alums over the past few days and I've gathered that many of them see the benefits of Harvard as ones that accumulate over an entire career, especially as peers and classmates enter senior positions in law firms, government and elected positions, and disperse through private industry.

In other words, the value is not all immediate, but rather slow-building. Take that for what you will.

Sure, but by definition you're talking to people who found success in law. And Harvard alums didn't attend CCN etc and so can't compare their experiences with those of grads from other schools.

[canafsa]

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[Npret]

Being in a nearly identical position, I've spoken to a bunch of Harvard alums over the past few days and I've gathered that many of them see the benefits of Harvard as ones that accumulate over an entire career, especially as peers and classmates enter senior positions in law firms, government and elected positions, and disperse through private industry.

In other words, the value is not all immediate, but rather slow-building. Take that for what you will.

Sure, but by definition you're talking to people who found success in law. And Harvard alums didn't attend CCN etc and so can't compare their experiences with those of grads from other schools.

I've been reaching out to alum of the other, lower T14s, who tend to be far less bullish with regards to the value of their alum networks - at least based on my limited and anecdotal experiences thus far. They've tended to endorse their school's academic quality rather than superior networking, at least compared to alum of Stanford and Harvard who I have spoken to. I acknowledge this is all anecdotal.

And yes, this is true that I've been reaching out the the success stories and skewing my sample. Some degree of and sober self-evaluation coupled with a degree of confidence and tolerance for risk would be necessary to take this path for these reasons. Not many will make it to the top. But some will. HYS apparently opens doors that are hard to appreciate if you are not from an elite or wealthy background or went to an elite undergraduate institution.

That said, I haven't yet decided which path I'll take.

Which doors are these specifically? It sounds like you are saying that the posters here are just proles who have no clue about the real world of the elites and that only the Harvard secret handshake can get you admission.

Also, how much did these people pay for their degree? How much debt did they have? Do they even know what tuition is now?

I don't think a survey of extremely successful people asking them if Harvard helped them is going to find many, if any, grads that will say no I should have taken that full ride to Columbia instead (if they even had that option.)

[quiver]

Being in a nearly identical position, I've spoken to a bunch of Harvard alums over the past few days and I've gathered that many of them see the benefits of Harvard as ones that accumulate over an entire career, especially as peers and classmates enter senior positions in law firms, government and elected positions, and disperse through private industry.

In other words, the value is not all immediate, but rather slow-building. Take that for what you will.

Sure, but by definition you're talking to people who found success in law. And Harvard alums didn't attend CCN etc and so can't compare their experiences with those of grads from other schools.

I've been reaching out to alum of the other, lower T14s, who tend to be far less bullish with regards to the value of their alum networks - at least based on my limited and anecdotal experiences thus far. They've tended to endorse their school's academic quality rather than superior networking, at least compared to alum of Stanford and Harvard who I have spoken to. I acknowledge this is all anecdotal.

And yes, this is true that I've been reaching out the the success stories and skewing my sample. Some degree of and sober self-evaluation coupled with a degree of confidence and tolerance for risk would be necessary to take this path for these reasons. Not many will make it to the top. But some will. HYS apparently opens doors that are hard to appreciate if you are not from an elite or wealthy background or went to an elite undergraduate institution.

That said, I haven't yet decided which path I'll take.

Which doors are these specifically?
Also, how much did these people pay for their degree? How much debt did they have? Do they even know what tuition is now?

I don't think a survey of extremely successful people asking them if Harvard helped them is going to find many, if any, grads that will say no I should have taken that full ride to Columbia instead (if they even had that option.)

Agreed.

Also, for the record, law school alumni networks are not the only networks you'll have. When you intern during law school, you'll get to know people at that agency/firm. When you go to a law firm, you'll get to know a lot of people who leave for other jobs (including co-counsel from other firms). If you clerk, you'll get co-clerks who will go off in their own directions. And all those people will know people. So while I personally wasn't close to many in my law school class, my connections to people I've met in my career are pretty strong (with absolutely zero networking skill on my part).

With that in mind, I'm not sure the YHS name goes as far as your contacts would lead you to believe, whether "slow building" or not.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I mean, I'm sure the HYS names are pretty helpful. I'm just not sure they're worth sticker price over CCN names for free.

[quiver]

I mean, I'm sure the HYS names are pretty helpful. I'm just not sure they're worth sticker price over CCN names for free.

Yeah, agreed. My only point was that, if someone wanted to go to HLS at sticker over NYU at full ride because of the "slow building" alumni network, that would be pretty silly.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I mean, I'm sure the HYS names are pretty helpful. I'm just not sure they're worth sticker price over CCN names for free.

Yeah, agreed. My only point was that, if someone wanted to go to HLS at sticker over NYU at full ride because of the "slow building" alumni network, that would be pretty silly.

Totally agreed.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Being in a nearly identical position, I've spoken to a bunch of Harvard alums over the past few days and I've gathered that many of them see the benefits of Harvard as ones that accumulate over an entire career, especially as peers and classmates enter senior positions in law firms, government and elected positions, and disperse through private industry.

In other words, the value is not all immediate, but rather slow-building. Take that for what you will.

Sure, but by definition you're talking to people who found success in law. And Harvard alums didn't attend CCN etc and so can't compare their experiences with those of grads from other schools.

Not to mention the huge problem of confirmation bias and the ever expanding price of law school.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Being in a nearly identical position, I've spoken to a bunch of Harvard alums over the past few days and I've gathered that many of them see the benefits of Harvard as ones that accumulate over an entire career, especially as peers and classmates enter senior positions in law firms, government and elected positions, and disperse through private industry.

In other words, the value is not all immediate, but rather slow-building. Take that for what you will.

Sure, but by definition you're talking to people who found success in law. And Harvard alums didn't attend CCN etc and so can't compare their experiences with those of grads from other schools.

I've been reaching out to alum of the other, lower T14s, who tend to be far less bullish with regards to the value of their alum networks - at least based on my limited and anecdotal experiences thus far. They've tended to endorse their school's academic quality rather than superior networking, at least compared to alum of Stanford and Harvard who I have spoken to. I acknowledge this is all anecdotal.

And yes, this is true that I've been reaching out the the success stories and skewing my sample. Some degree of and sober self-evaluation coupled with a degree of confidence and tolerance for risk would be necessary to take this path for these reasons. Not many will make it to the top. But some will. HYS apparently opens doors that are hard to appreciate if you are not from an elite or wealthy background or went to an elite undergraduate institution.

That said, I haven't yet decided which path I'll take.

Quoi?

[ayylmao]

Enjoy Greenwich Village.

[soj]

.

[20170322]

Why is this thread 5 pages?

OP, go put your seat deposit down at NYU.

/thread.

[Npret]

Just remembered this old gem:

Smirking, in fact, might be the official facial expression

of Harvard Law School. At least it was when I was graduated from there ten years ago. And why not? As a Harvard Law student, you've got the world by the balls. The degree, the most potent, fearsome weapon in all of academia, confers upon its holder a near guarantee of riches, freedom, prestige, and happiness. Listening to those parents hopelessly invoking the virtues of their well-bred sons and daughters, we knew we had it made. We knew we were the complete package. We knew we were golden.

THE CLASS MOTHER HEN sends me the phone directory he's been compiling. He doesn't flinch at the word souls when I tell him I'm interested in exploring what happened to the souls of the class of '90. "Get ready to be depressed, man," he says. "You won't find all that many people, at least those still in law, who love their lives."

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a8 ... vard-0800/

The 2007 article about some members of the class of 1990. Remember they paid a fraction of what you guys will pay. Even the Obamas took 10 years to repay their combined student loans. I hate to break it to you, but you probably aren't Barack and Michelle Obama.

I feel the school has no real incentive to track the true career and financial outcomes of the grads of the law school or else we would have solid data. ( I recall the plan for free tuition for PI students not being followed up with articles about outcomes either.)

Hasn't been a more recent article except for the articles about the undergrad H bomb losing its appeal for various reasons relating to increasing costs when the endowment is massive and other stuff.

[cavalier1138]

Disclaimer: NYU student.

Just to respond to the inane "No one outside of HYS has a job network," claims: NYU has a pretty fantastic network. Our career services and public interest offices have pretty extensive lists of who works where, and I have yet to encounter a firm or organization where NYU doesn't have some kind of alumni connection for me to leverage. I'm sure that a number of Harvard kids are dead convinced that no one outside of Harvard actually has a job, but the alumni networks at pretty much all of the T14 are extensive.

So yes, @canafsa, you're asking the wrong people and engaging in the worst sort of confirmation bias. Go to Harvard if you want, but I'd hate for you to think that you're getting access to some top-secret job network that the rest of us plebs can't even dream of.

[Npret]

Disclaimer: NYU student.

Just to respond to the inane "No one outside of HYS has a job network," claims: NYU has a pretty fantastic network. Our career services and public interest offices have pretty extensive lists of who works where, and I have yet to encounter a firm or organization where NYU doesn't have some kind of alumni connection for me to leverage. I'm sure that a number of Harvard kids are dead convinced that no one outside of Harvard actually has a job, but the alumni networks at pretty much all of the T14 are extensive.

So yes, @canafsa, you're asking the wrong people and engaging in the worst sort of confirmation bias. Go to Harvard if you want, but I'd hate for you to think that you're getting access to some top-secret job network that the rest of us plebs can't even dream of.

Of course NYU and Columbia and Chicago have fantastic alumni networks. They are 3 of the best law schools in the country. Maybe TLS has been part of creating this myth because of the old HYS and CCN designations. There is no real reason to not make it YS and HCCN. Those divisions are just TLS constructs.

I am guessing that OP has to believe there is something behind the Harvard mystique that makes it worth becoming a debt slave. It's too much of a challenge to OPs worldview to accept that other law schools are just as good. Nothing will convince OP otherwise. But it's been fun trying.

[cavalier1138]

Disclaimer: NYU student.

Just to respond to the inane "No one outside of HYS has a job network," claims: NYU has a pretty fantastic network. Our career services and public interest offices have pretty extensive lists of who works where, and I have yet to encounter a firm or organization where NYU doesn't have some kind of alumni connection for me to leverage. I'm sure that a number of Harvard kids are dead convinced that no one outside of Harvard actually has a job, but the alumni networks at pretty much all of the T14 are extensive.

So yes, @canafsa, you're asking the wrong people and engaging in the worst sort of confirmation bias. Go to Harvard if you want, but I'd hate for you to think that you're getting access to some top-secret job network that the rest of us plebs can't even dream of.

Of course NYU and Columbia and Chicago have fantastic alumni networks. They are 3 of the best law schools in the country. Maybe TLS has been part of creating this myth because of the old HYS and CCN designations. There is no real reason to not make it YS and HCCN. Those divisions are just TLS constructs.

I am guessing that OP has to believe there is something behind the Harvard mystique that makes it worth becoming a debt slave. It's too much of a challenge to OPs worldview to accept that other law schools are just as good. Nothing will convince OP otherwise. But it's been fun trying.

Just for clarification: there's no indication the OP is being ridiculous about this. It's other 0Ls (and one guy at HYS who appears to be so hung up on prestige that he hasn't learned how to express coherent thoughts in writing) who are jumping on board the "But if NYU is so great, why would Harvard charge us all this money?" train.

[Npret]

Disclaimer: NYU student.

Just to respond to the inane "No one outside of HYS has a job network," claims: NYU has a pretty fantastic network. Our career services and public interest offices have pretty extensive lists of who works where, and I have yet to encounter a firm or organization where NYU doesn't have some kind of alumni connection for me to leverage. I'm sure that a number of Harvard kids are dead convinced that no one outside of Harvard actually has a job, but the alumni networks at pretty much all of the T14 are extensive.

So yes, @canafsa, you're asking the wrong people and engaging in the worst sort of confirmation bias. Go to Harvard if you want, but I'd hate for you to think that you're getting access to some top-secret job network that the rest of us plebs can't even dream of.

Of course NYU and Columbia and Chicago have fantastic alumni networks. They are 3 of the best law schools in the country. Maybe TLS has been part of creating this myth because of the old HYS and CCN designations. There is no real reason to not make it YS and HCCN. Those divisions are just TLS constructs.

I am guessing that OP has to believe there is something behind the Harvard mystique that makes it worth becoming a debt slave. It's too much of a challenge to OPs worldview to accept that other law schools are just as good. Nothing will convince OP otherwise. But it's been fun trying.

Just for clarification: there's no indication the OP is being ridiculous about this. It's other 0Ls (and one guy at HYS who appears to be so hung up on prestige that he hasn't learned how to express coherent thoughts in writing) who are jumping on board the "But if NYU is so great, why would Harvard charge us all this money?" train.

Oh sorry OP.

[kalvano]

So just to confirm, no actual practicing attorney with real-world experience thinks going into massive debt for law school is a good idea.

[canafsa]

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[A. Nony Mouse]

I think the belief that Harvard is well worth the money is pretty well-represented in life, though, which is why people push back against it here.

[cavalier1138]

Failing to understand the snark when I just relayed what others have told me, including partners at V100 firms. I even said in my post that I haven't decided to take Harvard over the money. No need for the disrespect when all I am trying to do is provide a perspective which is not well represented in this thread. I even very clearly included a disclaimer that I was relaying anecdote AND I WAS STILL CRITIQUED FOR RELAYING ANECDOTE.

You can critique the arguments of the people I spoke to or dismiss it as anecdotal, but writing me off as a 0L in a thread full of 0Ls, or claiming I can't write is just rude and uncalled for. These conversations always get so needlessly heated and I have no idea why. It's like people are offended at the idea that different people have different values, ambitions, and tolerances for risk.

You offered the anecdotes as some sort of evidence that Harvard must be worth a lot of extra cash (look at all the prestige these people are banking away!).

The reason people get irritated with 0Ls doing shit like this is that your desire to provide a "different perspective" could have a life-altering impact on someone who doesn't recognize that not all viewpoints are created equal. Not every thread needs to be a debate, and this one certainly wasn't until one or two idiots started kicking and screaming about how there's no way Harvard isn't worth $300k and your first-born child over any other school because omgHarvardprestige! And it's perfectly alright to have different values; that doesn't mean that other people don't get to say that valuing perceived prestige over tangible results is stupid.

Incidentally, I never claimed you couldn't write a coherent thought. That was directed at the actual HYS student who hasn't yet articulated what career opportunities Harvard offers the OP that wouldn't be available at NYU.

[Nebby]

I mean, I'm sure the HYS names are pretty helpful. I'm just not sure they're worth sticker price over CCN names for free.

Yeah, agreed. My only point was that, if someone wanted to go to HLS at sticker over NYU at full ride because of the "slow building" alumni network, that would be pretty silly.

This is TLS, people make silly life decisions on a whim

[shadowfax]

I'm curious how much empathy the anti-prestige faction has for what they must think are the poor fools who pay full price to go to NYU rather than take money at, heaven forbid, Virginia or Penn. I can only assume the answer would be that of course you pay up for NYU... it is T-6 after all.

NYU is buying the OP's grades. Pure and simple. The OP's stated goal is to make as much money in big law as humanly possible while investing the least amount of his/hers own money. No saving the whales or solving world hunger here. Nothing wrong with that. NYU could use the merit scholarship money to reduce everyone tuition. They choose not to. Merit trumps equity. And don't tell me the money was donated only to provide merit scholarships. Since money is fungible, and the school has an annual budget to meet, the OP is getting a free ride on the backs of the great unwashed who are paying full price.

A substantial majority of all law students pay full price at the institutions they attend. Again I am vastly more impressed with HYS for being the truly democratic institutions that provide funds based on need.

Oh for god's sake get off your high horse. Yes, someone who wants NYC biglaw and pays sticker for NYU over Penn or UVA with $ is silly - I don't think anyone here would dispute that, either. You have some weird anti-NYU/rankings hard-on thing going on. And if HYS were so democratic they could let in more people.

Yes, people who get scholarships are attending on the backs of people who pay sticker. Some of those are rich kids whose parents are paying. Some aren't. Until the system changes, there's nothing anyone here can do about that - are you saying they should turn down with money and pay full price just to be fair to others? That's silly as fuck.

You might want to consider that in fact the majority of those receiving full rides are also the most capable of paying for their schooling. Plenty of evidence that the tools that it takes to get a Hamilton or Ruby are far more available to those of means. Private schools, prep classes, elite undergrads, tutors, and the like. Many discussions on this site about groups like URM's footing the bills for the named scholly recipients. Should one turn down this oddly sourced money? No.

That still doesn't mean that HSY aren't worth what they cost particularly given their need based aid, for those truly in need, and their generous LRAP plans, that often permit one to undertake non big law paths.