WUSTL $$$ v NU @ Sticker - Resolved 6/27/14 Forum

[chuckbass]

Early decision NU next cycle? Thoughts everyone?

<1% chance with a 2.4 GPA. Not an option (remember OP was accepted off the waitlist).

Yea, I actually applied ED this year and was held, so I doubt the result would be different next year... it may actually have helped me get in off the waitlist though, for others looking. Johann did say in a Q&A session that applying ED gives you a leg up when it comes time to pick ppl off the waitlist...

Yea I think it definitely helped you ultimately get accepted. It's been common TLS advice to ED NU with numbers like yours just to boost your chances after you're held/deferred/WL.

[03152016]

fixed
i underestimated the numbers by 30k

let's start by taking tuition 2013-2014 - $54,764
i will assume zero for room, zero for board, zero for insurance
i will assume you are living extremely frugally. therefore i will take NU's estimates for books (1418) and subtract ~400, their budget for personal expenses (2610, think: wardrobe, office supplies, going out, medical co-pays, sundries, coffee, haircuts, entertainment, we could go on and on) and subtract ~600.
you mentioned 2,500 for gas
total non-tuition expenses: 5,500 (i think this is too low, but so be it)

tuition will go up for 2014-2015, i assume at 3.64% cost inflation based on LST numbers.

tuition expenses 1L: 56,757
non-tuition expenses 1L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 1L: 52,257
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over three years (5.41% - i don't think this will last) - 3,510
grad plus loans - 31,757
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,359
interest over three years (7.21% - yes they just went up! argh) - 7,376

tuition expenses 2L: 58,634
non-tuition expenses 2L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 2L: 54,134
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over two years (5.41%) - 2,278
grad plus loans - 33,634
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,442
interest over three years (7.21%) - 5,025

tuition expenses 3L: 60,768
non-tuition expenses 3L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 3L: 56,268
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over one year (5.41%) - 1,109
grad plus loans - 35,768
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,534
interest over one year (7.21%) - 2,579

total net coa - 176,159
total fees - 4,995
total interest - 21,877
total ls debt at graduation - 203,031
six month deferment period interest (rough interest estimate here - 6.5%) - 6,599
total ls debt at repayment - 209,630

i will assume that you get a summer associate position that nets you 30k after taxes
and i will assume that you have the option of living at home from the time you graduate until the time you start work
summer associate pay: 30k
barbri: (3,850)
professional wardrobe and other professional expenses: (2,000)
personal expenses in deferment period: (3,000)
the 17.5k in UG loans will be 20,259 over three years (assumed capitalization annually, this figure may be higher)
let's assume the other 17.5k stays 17.5k
let's say you use the remainder of your SA pay to pay down UG loans
remaining summer associate pay: 0k
remaining UG loans: 16,609

assuming six month deferment of interest on 16,609 in UG debt

total debt at repayment: 226,239
assuming rough estimate interest at 6.5%
$308,268 on the ten year plan

again, this all assumes that
-you live with family all three years plus during the six month deferment period
-you live unbelievably frugally during that time
-the generous figures i gave you wrt summer associate, interest rates, ug loans, etc actually come true

editorializing time:
even with all of those assumptions and a 30k scholarship to boot, you end up with $2xx,000 debt
that's if every single thing goes right, in your favor, from now until you get your first check

let me list some possible failure points:
-you cannot continue your living situation with family
-you'd like to do more socializing than getting dollar pizza with chad every other thursday night
-you break your laptop
-you like to buy new clothes more than once every three years
-you'd like to have insurance of some kind
-you do not maintain good academic standing
-unexected transportation costs i.e. car breaks down
-you or a loved one has a medical emergency between now and 2017 that drains your reserve fund
-interest rates or cost inflation exceed the listed figures
-you do not receive an offer at oci
-you get no offered or cold offered at your SA firm
-you burn out of biglaw or pushed out before you can make an exit
-you have a kid
-you fail the bar

even if none of these things happen over a four year time frame, you're still going to be in an unconscionable amount of debt

it couldn't be more clear to me, WUSTL
casting my vote now

[ph14]

it couldn't be more clear to me, WUSTL
casting my vote now

It's always been WUSTL. Full scholarship at WUSTL is a great outcome, especially when you are already saddled with undergraduate debt. OP: I think you might be romanticizing law school in general and NU in particular.

[Onomatopoeia]

damn, max went ham

[workaholic82]

STOP ALL OF THESE NUMBERS ARE TOO LOW BECAUSE I FUCKED UP MY SPREADSHEET
EDITING NOW!!!

let's start by taking tuition 2013-2014 - $54,764
i will assume zero for room, zero for board, zero for insurance
i will assume you are living extremely frugally. therefore i will take NU's estimates for books (1418) and subtract ~400, their budget for personal expenses (2610, think: wardrobe, office supplies, going out, medical co-pays, sundries, coffee, haircuts, entertainment, we could go on and on) and subtract ~600.
you mentioned 2,500 for gas
total non-tuition expenses: 5,500 (i think this is too low, but so be it)

tuition will go up for 2014-2015, i assume at 3.64% cost inflation based on LST numbers.

tuition expenses 1L: 54,764
non-tuition expenses 1L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 1L: 50,264
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over three years (5.41% - i don't think this will last) - 3,510
grad plus loans - 29,764
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,276
interest over three years (7.21% - yes they just went up! argh) - 6,913.29

tuition expenses 2L: 56,757
non-tuition expenses 2L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 2L: 52,257
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over two years (5.41%) - 2,278
grad plus loans - 31,757
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,359
interest over three years (7.21%) - 4,744

tuition expenses 3L: 58,634
non-tuition expenses 3L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 3L: 54,134
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over one year (5.41%) - 1,109
grad plus loans - 33,634
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,442
interest over one year (7.21%) - 2,492

total net coa - 156,655
total fees - 4,737
total interest - 21,046
total ls debt at graduation - 182,438
six month deferment period interest (rough interest estimate here - 6.5%) - 5,929
total ls debt at repayment 188,367

i will assume that you get a summer associate position that nets you 30k after taxes
and i will assume that you have the option of living at home from the time you graduate until the time you start work
summer associate pay: 30k
barbri: (3,850)
professional wardrobe and other professional expenses: (2,000)
personal expenses in deferment period: (3,000)
the 17.5k in UG loans will be 20,259 over three years (assumed capitalization annually, this figure may be higher)
let's assume the other 17.5k stays 17.5k
let's say you use the remainder of your SA pay to pay down UG loans
remaining summer associate pay: 0k
remaining UG loans: 16,609

assuming six month deferment of interest on 16,609 in UG debt

total debt at repayment: 204,976
assuming rough estimate interest at 6.5%
$279,295.20 paid on the ten year plan

again, this all assumes that
-you live with family all three years plus during the six month deferment period
-you live unbelievably frugally during that time
-the generous figures i gave you wrt summer associate, interest rates, ug loans, etc actually come true

editorializing time:
even with all of those assumptions and a 30k scholarship to boot, you end up with $2xx,000 debt
that's if every single thing goes right, in your favor, from now until you get your first check

let me list some possible failure points:
-you cannot continue your living situation with family
-you'd like to do more socializing than getting dollar pizza with chad every other thursday night
-you break your laptop
-you like to buy new clothes more than once every three years
-you'd like to have insurance of some kind
-you do not maintain good academic standing
-unexected transportation costs i.e. car breaks down
-you or a loved one has a medical emergency between now and 2017 that drains your reserve fund
-interest rates or cost inflation exceed the listed figures
-you do not receive an offer at oci
-you get no offered or cold offered at your SA firm
-you burn out of biglaw or pushed out before you can make an exit
-you have a kid
-you fail the bar

even if none of these things happen over a four year time frame, you're still going to be in an unconscionable amount of debt

it couldn't be more clear to me, WUSTL
casting my vote now

Thank you very much for this. I respect your especially educated opinion, and will take it strongly into account. Unfortunately, I thought SA pay was 30K before tax, so more like 20K after tax though, but the amount is in the same ballpark anyways. I don't know if I agree that ~200K is necessarily unconscionable when you factor in PAYE options plus the added income a Northwestern degree is likely to confer over a lifetime, but I certainly will think about your opinion deeply.

[workaholic82]

it couldn't be more clear to me, WUSTL
casting my vote now

It's always been WUSTL. Full scholarship at WUSTL is a great outcome, especially when you are already saddled with undergraduate debt. OP: I think you might be romanticizing law school in general and NU in particular.

I mean I may be romanticizing on one level, but i've been exposed to reality through TLS for a long time, so on an intellectual level, I think I know what the truth is: law school sucks in certain respects no matter where you go (except yale), and BigLaw work sucks in certain respects almost no matter who you are. I get all that. I still do want BigLaw, for reasons I expressed earlier in the thread, and I do feel NU more than doubles my chances of getting there. THat's really my biggest stumbling block, not that I'm romanticizing anything, I think...

[workaholic82]

fixed
i underestimated the numbers by 30k

let's start by taking tuition 2013-2014 - $54,764
i will assume zero for room, zero for board, zero for insurance
i will assume you are living extremely frugally. therefore i will take NU's estimates for books (1418) and subtract ~400, their budget for personal expenses (2610, think: wardrobe, office supplies, going out, medical co-pays, sundries, coffee, haircuts, entertainment, we could go on and on) and subtract ~600.
you mentioned 2,500 for gas
total non-tuition expenses: 5,500 (i think this is too low, but so be it)

tuition will go up for 2014-2015, i assume at 3.64% cost inflation based on LST numbers.

tuition expenses 1L: 56,757
non-tuition expenses 1L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 1L: 52,257
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over three years (5.41% - i don't think this will last) - 3,510
grad plus loans - 31,757
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,359
interest over three years (7.21% - yes they just went up! argh) - 7,376

tuition expenses 2L: 58,634
non-tuition expenses 2L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 2L: 54,134
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over two years (5.41%) - 2,278
grad plus loans - 33,634
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,442
interest over three years (7.21%) - 5,025

tuition expenses 3L: 60,768
non-tuition expenses 3L: 5,500
scholarship: (10,000)
net coa 3L: 56,268
stafford grad loans - 20,500
origination fee (1.072%) - 220
interest over one year (5.41%) - 1,109
grad plus loans - 35,768
origination fee (4.288%) - 1,534
interest over one year (7.21%) - 2,579

total net coa - 176,159
total fees - 4,995
total interest - 21,877
total ls debt at graduation - 203,031
six month deferment period interest (rough interest estimate here - 6.5%) - 6,599
total ls debt at repayment - 209,630

i will assume that you get a summer associate position that nets you 30k after taxes
and i will assume that you have the option of living at home from the time you graduate until the time you start work
summer associate pay: 30k
barbri: (3,850)
professional wardrobe and other professional expenses: (2,000)
personal expenses in deferment period: (3,000)
the 17.5k in UG loans will be 20,259 over three years (assumed capitalization annually, this figure may be higher)
let's assume the other 17.5k stays 17.5k
let's say you use the remainder of your SA pay to pay down UG loans
remaining summer associate pay: 0k
remaining UG loans: 16,609

assuming six month deferment of interest on 16,609 in UG debt

total debt at repayment: 226,239
assuming rough estimate interest at 6.5%
$308,268 on the ten year plan

again, this all assumes that
-you live with family all three years plus during the six month deferment period
-you live unbelievably frugally during that time
-the generous figures i gave you wrt summer associate, interest rates, ug loans, etc actually come true

editorializing time:
even with all of those assumptions and a 30k scholarship to boot, you end up with $2xx,000 debt
that's if every single thing goes right, in your favor, from now until you get your first check

let me list some possible failure points:
-you cannot continue your living situation with family
-you'd like to do more socializing than getting dollar pizza with chad every other thursday night
-you break your laptop
-you like to buy new clothes more than once every three years
-you'd like to have insurance of some kind
-you do not maintain good academic standing
-unexected transportation costs i.e. car breaks down
-you or a loved one has a medical emergency between now and 2017 that drains your reserve fund
-interest rates or cost inflation exceed the listed figures
-you do not receive an offer at oci
-you get no offered or cold offered at your SA firm
-you burn out of biglaw or pushed out before you can make an exit
-you have a kid
-you fail the bar

even if none of these things happen over a four year time frame, you're still going to be in an unconscionable amount of debt

it couldn't be more clear to me, WUSTL
casting my vote now

Thanks Max, you are awesome. No question it's a ton of debt. But the more I stew on PAYE/IBR, the more I feel like, how bad is the worst case scenario? If I strike out and am somehow relegated to a $50-70K job for life, I can still pay $10K/year for 20 years and then discharge, and my financial outcome would not be any worse for me than it currently is. And if I succeed, I get to take home roughly $106K in Chicago, paying roughly $2,600 per month towards my loans and taking home a remainder of $75,000.00 with which to do as I please. I agree WUSTL is the safer option, but I can still see NU as not insane given the above scenarios...

[ManoftheHour]

WUSTL and it's not even close. F@#$ that interest. STL is a cheap place to live. You could easily do it for half of the listed COA.

Have you tried negotiating with NU? It's worth a shot.

[workaholic82]

WUSTL and it's not even close. F@#$ that interest. STL is a cheap place to live. You could easily do it for half of the listed COA.

Have you tried negotiating with NU? It's worth a shot.

PM'd

[DoveBodyWash]

Is this about getting a job or is this about prestige? It sounds like the latter to me.

Will you be happy if u get BigLaw from WUSTL with full ride? Or will you still feel inadequate somehow because it's not a T14 degree? Will you be okay getting BigLaw from NU with that much debt? If you won't happy with the best outcome from WUSTL and would still be happier with BigLaw from NU with the debt, then go to NU and go with God. If the psychic income of going to a T14 school is worth that much to you, then so be it.

But just to put in my two-cents: Only a small group of people (in an even smaller group of fields) will actually care whether you went to a T14 versus a T20 once you're a practicing lawyer. Unfortunately those people won't be affirmatively impressed with a NU degree. If this was HYSCCN v. WUSTL or something then I might be more sympathetic. The problem is that the only people who might care, won't care all that much about a Northwestern J.D.

[rahulg91]

I chose WUSTL. Low debt sounds sweet, sticker at NU is scary as balls.

[workaholic82]

Is this about getting a job or is this about prestige? It sounds like the latter to me.

Will you be happy if u get BigLaw from WUSTL with full ride? Or will you still feel inadequate somehow because it's not a T14 degree? Will you be okay getting BigLaw from NU with that much debt? If you won't happy with the best outcome from WUSTL and would still be happier with BigLaw from NU with the debt, then go to NU and go with God. If the psychic income of going to a T14 school is worth that much to you, then so be it.

But just to put in my two-cents: Only a small group of people (in an even smaller group of fields) will actually care whether you went to a T14 versus a T20 once you're a practicing lawyer. Unfortunately those people won't be affirmatively impressed with a NU degree. If this was HYSCCN v. WUSTL or something then I might be more sympathetic. The problem is that the only people who might care, won't care all that much about a Northwestern J.D.

Very good points and questions. Honestly, I'd prefer biglaw from WUSTL, but some ppl I've spoken with have scared me into thinking that's less likely than the lst numbers indicate... I've heard oci is sparsely populated with firms and mostly certain underrepresented classes of ppl are getting the vast majority of biglaw openings. This scared me a bit, and makes me feel like I'd actually need top 10% at least to get biglaw from there. And regarding transferring, i can't really find solid answers on how well they do at oci, which also scares me... i mean, yes, the prestige is a powerful draw, but not the overriding one.

[workaholic82]

I chose WUSTL. Low debt sounds sweet, sticker at NU is scary as balls.

Thanks for this.

[DoveBodyWash]

Is this about getting a job or is this about prestige? It sounds like the latter to me.

Will you be happy if u get BigLaw from WUSTL with full ride? Or will you still feel inadequate somehow because it's not a T14 degree? Will you be okay getting BigLaw from NU with that much debt? If you won't happy with the best outcome from WUSTL and would still be happier with BigLaw from NU with the debt, then go to NU and go with God. If the psychic income of going to a T14 school is worth that much to you, then so be it.

But just to put in my two-cents: Only a small group of people (in an even smaller group of fields) will actually care whether you went to a T14 versus a T20 once you're a practicing lawyer. Unfortunately those people won't be affirmatively impressed with a NU degree. If this was HYSCCN v. WUSTL or something then I might be more sympathetic. The problem is that the only people who might care, won't care all that much about a Northwestern J.D.

Very good points and questions. Honestly, I'd prefer biglaw from WUSTL, but some ppl I've spoken with have scared me into thinking that's less likely than the lst numbers indicate... I've heard oci is sparsely populated with firms and mostly certain underrepresented classes of ppl are getting the vast majority of biglaw openings. This scared me a bit, and makes me feel like I'd actually need top 10% at least to get biglaw from there. And regarding transferring, i can't really find solid answers on how well they do at oci, which also scares me... i mean, yes, the prestige is a powerful draw, but not the overriding one.

Haha this is more amusing cuz I know who's been whispering in your ear.

This is something you don't realize as an 0L because all 0Ls assume that everyone must want and pursues biglaw. But in reality, when the dust settles, there are lots of classmates who were never interested in biglaw. I had lots of classmates who came into school knowing they didn't want biglaw. Even those of us that want it mostly view it as an unpleasant necessity. I can count on my fingers the number of ppl in my class who are truly gunning for prestigious biglaw in nyc or something.

These Midwesterners don't care as much abt the prestige and money from my experience. Most of them just want a stable life in their home region. This was weird to me coming from a prestige obsessed environment (northeast).

You don't have to be top 10% to get biglaw. That's like SLU status. Not everyone in the top third is gunna he gunning for every job opening. If you ONLY want chicago biglaw, well first you're a fool cuz even UChicago kids don't put all their eggs in the Chicago Biglaw basket, and second yes you should go to NU over wustl. But if you are open to jobs that pay 100 - 160k in different markets, then go to WUSTL.

Also, this may be somewhat controversial to say. But honestly.. if you can't do well enough on 6 exams that you spend months studying for in advance with whatever mentorship you get from 2Ls and 3Ls, then I don't think you'd survive long in biglaw anyway. Certainly not long enough to fully repay sticker debt.

[workaholic82]

Is this about getting a job or is this about prestige? It sounds like the latter to me.

Will you be happy if u get BigLaw from WUSTL with full ride? Or will you still feel inadequate somehow because it's not a T14 degree? Will you be okay getting BigLaw from NU with that much debt? If you won't happy with the best outcome from WUSTL and would still be happier with BigLaw from NU with the debt, then go to NU and go with God. If the psychic income of going to a T14 school is worth that much to you, then so be it.

But just to put in my two-cents: Only a small group of people (in an even smaller group of fields) will actually care whether you went to a T14 versus a T20 once you're a practicing lawyer. Unfortunately those people won't be affirmatively impressed with a NU degree. If this was HYSCCN v. WUSTL or something then I might be more sympathetic. The problem is that the only people who might care, won't care all that much about a Northwestern J.D.

Very good points and questions. Honestly, I'd prefer biglaw from WUSTL, but some ppl I've spoken with have scared me into thinking that's less likely than the lst numbers indicate... I've heard oci is sparsely populated with firms and mostly certain underrepresented classes of ppl are getting the vast majority of biglaw openings. This scared me a bit, and makes me feel like I'd actually need top 10% at least to get biglaw from there. And regarding transferring, i can't really find solid answers on how well they do at oci, which also scares me... i mean, yes, the prestige is a powerful draw, but not the overriding one.

Haha this is more amusing cuz I know who's been whispering in your ear.

This is something you don't realize as an 0L because all 0Ls assume that everyone must want and pursues biglaw. But in reality, when the dust settles, there are lots of classmates who were never interested in biglaw. I had lots of classmates who came into school knowing they didn't want biglaw. Even those of us that want it mostly view it as an unpleasant necessity. I can count on my fingers the number of ppl in my class who are truly gunning for prestigious biglaw in nyc or something.

These Midwesterners don't care as much abt the prestige and money from my experience. Most of them just want a stable life in their home region. This was weird to me coming from a prestige obsessed environment (northeast).

You don't have to be top 10% to get biglaw. That's like SLU status. Not everyone in the top third is gunna he gunning for every job opening. If you ONLY want chicago biglaw, well first you're a fool cuz even UChicago kids don't put all their eggs in the Chicago Biglaw basket, and second yes you should go to NU over wustl. But if you are open to jobs that pay 100 - 160k in different markets, then go to WUSTL.

Also, this may be somewhat controversial to say. But honestly.. if you can't do well enough on 6 exams that you spend months studying for in advance with whatever mentorship you get from 2Ls and 3Ls, then I don't think you'd survive long in biglaw anyway. Certainly not long enough to fully repay sticker debt.

Thanks. I question your last assertion; if good enough means top 1/3, i might agree, but you yourself have said there's way more luck involved in grading than you anticipated. So, if you need to be, for instance, top 20% to get biglaw, i don't think it's inconceivable that bad luck keeps you out of that range where good luck may have put you at top 15%. But point taken.

[DoveBodyWash]

Is this about getting a job or is this about prestige? It sounds like the latter to me.

Will you be happy if u get BigLaw from WUSTL with full ride? Or will you still feel inadequate somehow because it's not a T14 degree? Will you be okay getting BigLaw from NU with that much debt? If you won't happy with the best outcome from WUSTL and would still be happier with BigLaw from NU with the debt, then go to NU and go with God. If the psychic income of going to a T14 school is worth that much to you, then so be it.

But just to put in my two-cents: Only a small group of people (in an even smaller group of fields) will actually care whether you went to a T14 versus a T20 once you're a practicing lawyer. Unfortunately those people won't be affirmatively impressed with a NU degree. If this was HYSCCN v. WUSTL or something then I might be more sympathetic. The problem is that the only people who might care, won't care all that much about a Northwestern J.D.

Very good points and questions. Honestly, I'd prefer biglaw from WUSTL, but some ppl I've spoken with have scared me into thinking that's less likely than the lst numbers indicate... I've heard oci is sparsely populated with firms and mostly certain underrepresented classes of ppl are getting the vast majority of biglaw openings. This scared me a bit, and makes me feel like I'd actually need top 10% at least to get biglaw from there. And regarding transferring, i can't really find solid answers on how well they do at oci, which also scares me... i mean, yes, the prestige is a powerful draw, but not the overriding one.

Haha this is more amusing cuz I know who's been whispering in your ear.

This is something you don't realize as an 0L because all 0Ls assume that everyone must want and pursues biglaw. But in reality, when the dust settles, there are lots of classmates who were never interested in biglaw. I had lots of classmates who came into school knowing they didn't want biglaw. Even those of us that want it mostly view it as an unpleasant necessity. I can count on my fingers the number of ppl in my class who are truly gunning for prestigious biglaw in nyc or something.

These Midwesterners don't care as much abt the prestige and money from my experience. Most of them just want a stable life in their home region. This was weird to me coming from a prestige obsessed environment (northeast).

You don't have to be top 10% to get biglaw. That's like SLU status. Not everyone in the top third is gunna he gunning for every job opening. If you ONLY want chicago biglaw, well first you're a fool cuz even UChicago kids don't put all their eggs in the Chicago Biglaw basket, and second yes you should go to NU over wustl. But if you are open to jobs that pay 100 - 160k in different markets, then go to WUSTL.

Also, this may be somewhat controversial to say. But honestly.. if you can't do well enough on 6 exams that you spend months studying for in advance with whatever mentorship you get from 2Ls and 3Ls, then I don't think you'd survive long in biglaw anyway. Certainly not long enough to fully repay sticker debt.

Thanks. I question your last assertion; if good enough means top 1/3, i might agree, but you yourself have said there's way more luck involved in grading than you anticipated. So, if you need to be, for instance, top 20% to get biglaw, i don't think it's inconceivable that bad luck keeps you out of that range where good luck may have put you at top 15%. But point taken.

Yea luck matters for grades. But luck matters soooooo much more when it comes to biglaw survival. The luck involved in grading is usually just abt which professors you get. If you get unlucky hand then you work to adjust to those profs. Sure there could be something else like you break a hand before finals and have to write by hand or something, but that kind of risk comes with everything you do. The chances that some misfortune strikes you and only you and not your entire section are small. If you get tough or shitty prof, then everyone in your section has to deal with it. And you are graded relative to your peers.

[DoveBodyWash]

Also you would be subject to that same type of luck risk at NU, just with way more debt. It's not like biglaw is promised from NU

[workaholic82]

Also you would be subject to that same type of luck risk at NU, just with way more debt. It's not like biglaw is promised from NU

True, good points.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[DoveBodyWash]

Also you would be subject to that same type of luck risk at NU, just with way more debt. It's not like biglaw is promised from NU

True, good points.

NU is excellent school. And there are cons to going to WUSTL trust me. And honestly I wouldn't fault you if you chose NU for the right reasons and with proper understanding of potential risks

1. Biglaw is your primary goal and it is worth it even if you have diminished income cuz of repayment
2. You're okay with going on PAYE should things go south

If those two things are true then go to NU, but if not then WUSTL

[workaholic82]

Workaholic, I've always liked you as a poster so I want to weigh in one last time. I think you've been here long enough to know, I'm not someone who always says go with the money. Hell, you know I chose Yale (admittedly with the max need-based aid) over the Hamilton. I generally say, go wherever will help you achieve your goals for as low a price as possible. Northwestern is a great school in certain circumstances. For one, they seem more willing to forgive splitters than other T14s and their ED program is incredible. That said, they are one of the weaker T14 and also have probably the lowest lay prestige of all of them. If it was Columbia the decision would be more difficult. But it's not. WUSTL, on the other hand, is absolutely incredible. Their overall employment compares with NU, and it seems to be doing consistently better every year. As someone outside the area, I can tell you their lay prestige are roughly the same. Yes, your Biglaw chances seem to be roughly half at 33% (Though I think that might partly be location and self-selection (less Biglaw in Missouri where many grads want to stay) I'd say you might even have options at above median). However, the debt is what seals it for me and the very grounded posters like Brut and ph. $2XX,000 is a mindblowing amount of money. Even with a Biglaw salary it's gonna be a bitch to pay off. What if you get laid off from Biglaw in 2-3 years? It does happen. Northwestern is again like that roulette game. Things have to go just right for you to have a perfectly great outcome. For WUSTL, if you finish in the top third, Biglaw is very much an option for you. If you don't. then you still have pretty good employment chances but not a life-draining debt weighing you down. I know it's tough to say no thank you to a T14, but it's definitely the right decision in this case.

Also, I love my parents but living with them during law school would suck ass.

Thanks a lot for the kind words. I will certainly take all of this into account.

[workaholic82]

Also you would be subject to that same type of luck risk at NU, just with way more debt. It's not like biglaw is promised from NU

True, good points.

NU is excellent school. And there are cons to going to WUSTL trust me. And honestly I wouldn't fault you if you chose NU for the right reasons and with proper understanding of potential risks

1. Biglaw is your primary goal and it is worth it even if you have diminished income cuz of repayment
2. You're okay with going on PAYE should things go south

If those two things are true then go to NU, but if not then WUSTL

I mean those two things are true but do you disagree with what mistaken genus said, esp about biglaw from wustl?

[DoveBodyWash]

Also you would be subject to that same type of luck risk at NU, just with way more debt. It's not like biglaw is promised from NU

True, good points.

NU is excellent school. And there are cons to going to WUSTL trust me. And honestly I wouldn't fault you if you chose NU for the right reasons and with proper understanding of potential risks

1. Biglaw is your primary goal and it is worth it even if you have diminished income cuz of repayment
2. You're okay with going on PAYE should things go south

If those two things are true then go to NU, but if not then WUSTL

I mean those two things are true but do you disagree with what mistaken genus said, esp about biglaw from wustl?

Sorry what specifically are you referring to

[workaholic82]

Sorry what specifically are you referring to

About similar prestige, improving prospects at wash u and shot at big law anywhere above median? It just seems like your general sentiments went counter to his...

[DoveBodyWash]

Sorry what specifically are you referring to

About similar prestige, improving prospects at wash u and shot at big law anywhere above median? It just seems like your general sentiments went counter to his...

1. Lay prestige. NU has a weird cult following in Chicago. Partly cuz NU kids think it matters that they are "cooler" than the UChicago kids. Mostly because the Midwest lacks elite schools in general so NU looks better by comparison. In the northeast no one worships it like they do in Chicago. WUSTL and NU lay prestige is pretty much same at least out here. Aka they are both schools you go to when you don't get into an Ivy and too proud or poor for BU or NYU.

2. Median prospects. Depends on how you define biglaw. Almost zero chance you get 160k unless you're IP or have some kind of internal connection. But 100k+ is still doable. Biglaw in the Midwest pays less than the coastal firms. You could also get midlaw that pays decent. Yes midlaw exists. But the hiring process for those firms aren't as rigid or formal so it's harder for me to say what will happen.