What is the difference between the T14s? Forum

[rayiner]

Again, you're making the same mistake everyone else on this board makes, assuming that global biglaw employment numbers (or NYC only, which is effectively the same thing) generally track the employment differences at the top firms. The problem is, they don't, as evidenced by the data below. The difference is biggest at the top firms and then smears out as you go to generic V50, V100.

Another way to look at it is by calculating all the associates at the big firms.

If you compare HLS (which loses the most folks to non-NYC biglaw), CLS, Penn and Cornell, summing up all the associates at WRLK/CSM/S&C/DPW/CGSM/STB, you get the following:

-----------SUM----2014 Enrollment----Sum/2014 Enrollment
HLS------ 336----- --2002---------------------0.17
CLS------ 345----- --1544---------------------0.22
Penn-----116----- ---928----------------------0.13
Cornell---85---------706----------------------0.12

That suggest that firms go a little less than twice as deep at CLS as they do at Penn/Cornell, which sounds about right. If you need to be top quarter at Cornell or Penn for these jobs, I think you need to be more like 40th percentile at CLS and above median at HLS.

Where did you get these numbers? I want to check out a couple other schools.

68% of CLS C/O 2013 was employed in NYC versus 41% of Penn's. Top quarter versus top 40% sounds more like CLS versus DNC for DPW/Clearly/STB.

I'm not assuming that. I agree with the premise that CLS/NYU have a particular advantage at NYC V10 firms. But your data doesn't show that, because you don't adjust for self selection out of NYC. This is a very real phenomenon. People who can get NYC V10 often take other firms if they don't want to go to NYC. E.g. I was quite shocked by how few people on LR at NU were gunning for V10. everyone wants Sidley/Mayer. Penn sends a much smaller percentage of its class to NYC. I believe that preference is uniform through the class. So lots of people who could get NYC V10 don't take it, because they don't want NY, at least relative to CLS.

[wons]

I vigorously disagree with the notion that there is material self-selection against NYC transactional firms at Penn or Cornell relative to CLS. These, along with NYU, are the New York feeder schools. Morgan Lewis is great and all, but vanishingly few people are taking that offer over Cravath, at Penn, CLS, Cornell - anywhere.

I do think there's a self-selection bias in the HLS numbers, and if I'd included Chicago or Berkeley I think you'd see a similar self-selection effect.

I'm not assuming that. I agree with the premise that CLS/NYU have a particular advantage at NYC V10 firms. But your data doesn't show that, because you don't adjust for self selection out of NYC. This is a very real phenomenon. People who can get NYC V10 often take other firms if they don't want to go to NYC. E.g. I was quite shocked by how few people on LR at NU were gunning for V10. everyone wants Sidley/Mayer. Penn sends a much smaller percentage of its class to NYC. I believe that preference is uniform through the class. So lots of people who could get NYC V10 don't take it, because they don't want NY, at least relative to CLS.

[jbagelboy]

Again, you're making the same mistake everyone else on this board makes, assuming that global biglaw employment numbers (or NYC only, which is effectively the same thing) generally track the employment differences at the top firms. The problem is, they don't, as evidenced by the data below. The difference is biggest at the top firms and then smears out as you go to generic V50, V100.

Another way to look at it is by calculating all the associates at the big firms.

If you compare HLS (which loses the most folks to non-NYC biglaw), CLS, Penn and Cornell, summing up all the associates at WRLK/CSM/S&C/DPW/CGSM/STB, you get the following:

-----------SUM----2014 Enrollment----Sum/2014 Enrollment
HLS------ 336----- --2002---------------------0.17
CLS------ 345----- --1544---------------------0.22
Penn-----116----- ---928----------------------0.13
Cornell---85---------706----------------------0.12

That suggest that firms go a little less than twice as deep at CLS as they do at Penn/Cornell, which sounds about right. If you need to be top quarter at Cornell or Penn for these jobs, I think you need to be more like 40th percentile at CLS and above median at HLS.

68% of CLS C/O 2013 was employed in NYC versus 41% of Penn's. Top quarter versus top 40% sounds more like CLS versus DNC for DPW/Clearly/STB.

I'm not assuming that. I agree with the premise that CLS/NYU have a particular advantage at NYC V10 firms. But your data doesn't show that, because you don't adjust for self selection out of NYC. This is a very real phenomenon. People who can get NYC V10 often take other firms if they don't want to go to NYC. E.g. I was quite shocked by how few people on LR at NU were gunning for V10. everyone wants Sidley/Mayer. Penn sends a much smaller percentage of its class to NYC. I believe that preference is uniform through the class. So lots of people who could get NYC V10 don't take it, because they don't want NY, at least relative to CLS.

Certainly this is true to some extent for NU (NYC is still Penn's main market so idk), but then by this rationale, all the best CLS students would be at these top firms, since that's where they are presumably self-selecting into it. But then why are all the Columbia students in CA, DC, TX, the UK, and Hong Kong also at the top firms in those markets? I don't really understand. I think the point is broader than just NYC.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[rayiner]

I vigorously disagree with the notion there is material self-selection against NYC transactional firms at Penn or Cornell relative to CLS. These, along with NYU, are the New York feeder schools. Morgan Lewis is great and all, but vanishingly few people are taking that offer over Cravath, at Penn, CLS, Cornell - anywhere.

Penn is also a DC feeder. Almost 15% of people at Penn go to DC, versus under 7% at Columbia. Lots of people, especially those with good grades, will turn down V10 firms in NYC for V100 firms in DC. Also, I wouldn't assume all those people who ended up in Phila couldn't get a V10 in NYC.

[09042014]

I wouldn't put V in its own class over BMDNC.

Y
HS
CC
NP
V
BMDNC
G

I just can't see a reason to put NYU as tied with CC on pure employment numbers. If we're looking at just employment, Penn edges NYU out slightly, so I'd say they're tied. That said, other than Georgetown and HYS, the schools are so close that if you get a lot more money at Cornell than Penn, Cornell will usually be the better option.

I was torn about UVA, primarily because I don't know about their school employed jobs. I just saw their numbers as slightly better than the others but clearly not at NYU or Penn's level so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. But if someone put UVA with the others I wouldn't blink twice.

UVA is the second shittiest t14.

[IAFG]

People who go out of their fucking way to post ON TOP of the quoted post contrary to the obvious, ubiquitous social convention should be permabanned. It's annoying, inconsiderate and just bizarrely aspie.

[beepboopbeep]

Couldn't agree more.

People who go out of their fucking way to post ON TOP of the quoted post contrary to the obvious, ubiquitous social convention should be permabanned. It's annoying, inconsiderate and just bizarrely aspie.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[FattyMcFatFat]

It's kind of funny that you seem to think, as someone having 11,275 posts on "Top-Law-Schools.com," you are immune from charges of bizarre aspieness. Are you even aware of "social convention?"

Don't worry though, sister, we can be friends. Get at me quick though. I won't be around when finals are done because, you know, I'm only marginally aspie.

[quote="IAFG"]People who go out of their fucking way to post ON TOP of the quoted post contrary to the obvious, ubiquitous social convention should be permabanned. It's annoying, inconsiderate and just bizarrely aspie.[/quote]

po[a]sted on top because fuck you but really we can be friends

[IAFG]

I have a few thousand more posts than that in an unmerged previous account, and I certainly can be pretty aspie (oh god eye contact, when) but this is not a tricky social convention to pick up on and comply with.

[FattyMcFatFat]

this is not a tricky social convention to pick up on and comply with.

TBF, I agree. It is kind of a pain in the ass when you're just reading random stuff on TLS and all of a sudden you find yourself in a thread where you have to check for text above quotes.

I have a few thousand more posts than that in an unmerged previous account

Which account is that? Just curious.

I certainly can be pretty aspie (oh god eye contact, when)

Not sure what this "when" business is about, but Jesus loves you, and he wants to see your pretty eyes.

Protip: when people make eye contact with you, just smile and say "hi." ("hi" is an English word conveying pleasure at encountering another human, and using such diction in no way obligates you to pursue a conversation with said human).

[09042014]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

[FattyMcFatFat]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

[beepboopbeep]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

>Gives people social etiquette lessons
>Makes this post

[FattyMcFatFat]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

>Gives people social etiquette lessons
>Makes this post
>Doesn't give a fuck

FTFY.

BTW, are you the IAFG alt account?

Edited: Nevermind, you don't have "a few thousand" posts.

[moonman157]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

>Gives people social etiquette lessons
>Makes this post

You're funny. I like you.

[FattyMcFatFat]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

>Gives people social etiquette lessons
>Makes this post

You're funny. I like you.

Indeed, the irony is readily apparent. I'm so ashamed.

[MrSebastian]

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

IAFG = "I'm A Fat Girl"

[A. Nony Mouse]

Keep in mind this is an on-topic thread, all.

[FattyMcFatFat]

Keep in mind this is an on-topic thread, all.

Got it.

IAFG actually flees like a penguin (stiff arms) when she gets awkward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18PU3uKRAs

That's adorable. Is she hot IRL?

IAFG = "I'm A Fat Girl"

Some people at some T14s probably like that sort of thing. Which T14 has the most fatties, and does IAFG go to one of them?

[IAFG]

IAFG married Rayiner at NU. Great school for getting married because everyone's old.

[MrSebastian]

You sly dog McFatFat.

Also, thx to my infinite wisdom I found those Vault 100 and Vault 10 lists I was looking for. Granted it's from 2006 and includes federal clerkships, but I'm sure relative placement power is about the same.

Vault 100 Placement

4 Columbia 80.2%
3 Harvard 74.1%
6 Chicago 71.4%
1 Yale 68.8%
2 Stanford 65.9%
4 NYU 61.2%
11 Duke 55.8%
12 Northwestern 53.1%
7 Penn 49.4%
13 Cornell 43.0%
8 Virginia 41.4%
8 Michigan 41.3%
14 Georgetown 34.4%
16 Texas 28.7%
8 Boalt 27.7%
15 UCLA 19.9%
27 Illinois 19.1%
17 Vanderbilt 19.0%
17 USC 18.4%
22 Notre Dame 18.3%
32 Fordham 15.3%
18 GWU 12.5%
70 Houston 11.9%
TTT Howard 11.9%
22 Boston U 11.6%
27 Boston College 11.3%
39 Wake Forest 11.0%
34 BYU 10.5%
26 Emory 8.9%

Vault 10 Placement (pretty sure this doesn't include fed clerks)

4 Columbia 37.8%
1 Yale 36.2%
3 Harvard 28.9%
6 Chicago 27.1%
2 Stanford 24.9%
4 NYU 23.7%
7 Penn 22.6%
12 Northwestern 19.8%
13 Cornell 19.7%
11 Duke 18.1%
8 Michigan 12.3%
8 Virginia 11.5%
8 Boalt 9.8%
14 Georgetown 9.8%
15 UCLA 6.6%
16 Texas 4.3%
32 Fordham 4.1%
17 Vanderbilt 4.0%
22 Notre Dame 4.0%
17 USC 3.9%
TTT Howard 3.8%
27 Boston College 3.3%
22 Boston U 3.1%
18 GWU 3.0%
65 Rutgers 2.8%
27 Illinois 2.7%
34 BYU 2.6%
27 North Carolina 2.2%
80 St. John's 2.2%
43 Arizona 2.0%
27 W&M 2.0%
58 Brooklyn 1.8%
43 American 1.7%
27 Washington 1.7%
50 UConn 1.5%
TTT NY Law 1.5%
39 Ohio State 1.4%
53 Cardozo 1.4%
19 WUSTL 1.4%
22 Iowa 1.3%
43 Tulane 1.3%
43 Hastings 1.2%
TTT Syracuse 1.1%
26 Emory 0.9%
87 Pepperdine 0.8%
70 Seton Hall 0.8%
60 Villanova 0.8%
80 Buffalo 0.8%
TTT Albany 0.8%
42 Maryland 0.8%
70 Loyola 0.8%
32 Wisconsin 0.7%
22 W&L 0.7%
19 Minnesota 0.7%
60 Missouri 0.7%
39 Wake Forest 0.6%
65 Kentucky 0.6%
TTT Hofstra 0.5%
87 Dickinson 0.5%
37 George Mason 0.5%
37 Indiana 0.4%
80 Rutgers Newark 0.4%
43 SMU 0.3%
FTT Touro 0.3%
70 Houston 0.3%
60 Kent 0.3%
70 Denver 0.3%
65 San Diego 0.3%
41 Florida 0.2%
FTT Weidner 0.2%

[IAFG]

FTT Weidner 0.2%[/b]

lol @ this one bro at Skadden Wilmington

[Chrstgtr]

You sly dog McFatFat.

Also, thx to my infinite wisdom I found those Vault 100 and Vault 10 lists I was looking for. Granted it's from 2006 and includes federal clerkships, but I'm sure relative placement power is about the same.

Vault 100 Placement

4 Columbia 80.2%
3 Harvard 74.1%
6 Chicago 71.4%
1 Yale 68.8%
2 Stanford 65.9%
4 NYU 61.2%
11 Duke 55.8%
12 Northwestern 53.1%
7 Penn 49.4%
13 Cornell 43.0%
8 Virginia 41.4%
8 Michigan 41.3%
14 Georgetown 34.4%
16 Texas 28.7%
8 Boalt 27.7%
15 UCLA 19.9%
27 Illinois 19.1%
17 Vanderbilt 19.0%
17 USC 18.4%
22 Notre Dame 18.3%
32 Fordham 15.3%
18 GWU 12.5%
70 Houston 11.9%
TTT Howard 11.9%
22 Boston U 11.6%
27 Boston College 11.3%
39 Wake Forest 11.0%
34 BYU 10.5%
26 Emory 8.9%

Vault 10 Placement (pretty sure this doesn't include fed clerks)

4 Columbia 37.8%
1 Yale 36.2%
3 Harvard 28.9%
6 Chicago 27.1%
2 Stanford 24.9%
4 NYU 23.7%
7 Penn 22.6%
12 Northwestern 19.8%
13 Cornell 19.7%
11 Duke 18.1%
8 Michigan 12.3%
8 Virginia 11.5%
8 Boalt 9.8%
14 Georgetown 9.8%
15 UCLA 6.6%
16 Texas 4.3%
32 Fordham 4.1%
17 Vanderbilt 4.0%
22 Notre Dame 4.0%
17 USC 3.9%
TTT Howard 3.8%
27 Boston College 3.3%
22 Boston U 3.1%
18 GWU 3.0%
65 Rutgers 2.8%
27 Illinois 2.7%
34 BYU 2.6%
27 North Carolina 2.2%
80 St. John's 2.2%
43 Arizona 2.0%
27 W&M 2.0%
58 Brooklyn 1.8%
43 American 1.7%
27 Washington 1.7%
50 UConn 1.5%
TTT NY Law 1.5%
39 Ohio State 1.4%
53 Cardozo 1.4%
19 WUSTL 1.4%
22 Iowa 1.3%
43 Tulane 1.3%
43 Hastings 1.2%
TTT Syracuse 1.1%
26 Emory 0.9%
87 Pepperdine 0.8%
70 Seton Hall 0.8%
60 Villanova 0.8%
80 Buffalo 0.8%
TTT Albany 0.8%
42 Maryland 0.8%
70 Loyola 0.8%
32 Wisconsin 0.7%
22 W&L 0.7%
19 Minnesota 0.7%
60 Missouri 0.7%
39 Wake Forest 0.6%
65 Kentucky 0.6%
TTT Hofstra 0.5%
87 Dickinson 0.5%
37 George Mason 0.5%
37 Indiana 0.4%
80 Rutgers Newark 0.4%
43 SMU 0.3%
FTT Touro 0.3%
70 Houston 0.3%
60 Kent 0.3%
70 Denver 0.3%
65 San Diego 0.3%
41 Florida 0.2%
FTT Weidner 0.2%

Does anyone know of anything similar that exists?

This seems really helpful and shows that even HLS doesn't place more than 10% of its graduates into V10 firms compared a lower the lower T14s of NU and Cornell and that only Y and Columbia place are able to outplace the lower T14s by >10%. Obviously self selection will have an effect on this in all sorts of ways but definitely suggests much more parity than I would have ever expected. Probably also worth noting that only Y was able to place more than half of its V100 placements into V10 firms.

With all that said I would be even more interested in up to date numbers due to the rush towards security after the economic collapse. But then again, were people in '06 really willing to pass on a V10 firm for a lower V100 firm when even if job security may have been relatively equal exit options certainly were not?