The fundamental problem with practicing lawyers Forum

[nouseforaname123]

the fundamental problem with burtsbees is that he keeps on changing his position depending on who/what he is responding to

I don't think I'm being inconsistent. Parse out all the stuff about wives/girlfriends because that's not what is important nor my main argument. From the start, my position has been:

1. If you want to be successful, you will have to work hard & make sacrifices no matter what profession you choose. Stress and lifestyle sacrifices are not unique to the legal profession. Many posters lambasting the legal profession seem to forget this.
2. If you are satisfied with an average lifestyle, then go work your average corporate job in Cleveland.
3. Those that can't cut it in the legal field probably wouldn't have been successful in other professions as well. It's more of a personality thing and those who fail shouldn't blame the legal field, but rather blame themselves.

1. Please name the other peer professions that you've discussed that come with (a) the unsecured, non-dischargeable debt load found in law and (b) the lack of job security found in high-paying legal jobs. If you still don't understand this issue, revisit it after you take secured transactions and creditor's rights.

2. Funny that many (most?) young lawyers would gladly trade for an average lifestyle in Cleveland.

3. As is the case for the vast, vast majority of young lawyers, legal education and the legal profession will humble you. I just hope you bump this thread when that happens.

I don't necessarily dispute these things, but it just really seems like there are many k-jd folks who get slammed by the biglaw life and can not appreciate how much more life can suck with a shit job (maybe slightly less shitty - even then, don't buy it.) for 120k-130k less, which is where most non k-JD 0L come from.

I think you're making a big assumption. My first job out of undergrad was a bitch to land because of the post 9/11 recession and it paid me less than $30k/year. A lot of people who struggled out of undergrad and eventually got big law will strongly recommend avoiding significant amounts of debt for LS and thinking hard about the decision to attend.

[Cicero76]

This is why I'm just sitting on my LSAT score for awhile. I'm going to re evaluate in two years if I still like being a police officer. I got the position with an 8% annual bonus for having a bachelor's degree (that I got debt free thanks to the serial rapist called the Army), I get a yearly raise (that will eventually max out, though), lots of opportunity for promotion and different assignments within the department, job security since there are no shortage of dirtbags, and a retirement with solid vacation time. PLUS, I get to drive a car really fast and fight drug addicts that attacks me. Something I can say that police work isn't: mundane. While there might be dull moments here and there, everyday is different, and every call is taken at a high level of anticipation simply because of what can happen. I might go to law school eventually, but it's not looking like it anytime soon. This stuff is fun. My 60k salary might not allow me to drive an Aston Martin, but how many attorneys do anyway? A third of my check does not go to debt payment, and I always have money left to save. I'll call it a deal for now.

I wanted to be a policeman so bad when I was little. That shit sounds awesome.

Then I watched "End of Watch."

[Johann]

To be fair, I know plenty of lawyers worked before LS. Nor do I mean that someone who is earning min wage should take out six figures of debt for a TTT - obviously that is dumb. I don't disagree with any of that.

However, I have heard lots of lawyers (not necessarily on TLS) lament that they should have just worked in some consulting/finance/tech job paying >60k, and my point is that that option is not open for a lot of prospective law students.

The jobs do exist https://careers.epic.com/Home/ViewListings. Learn to network now as opposed to in law school. Being scared of being underemployed for a month or three is not a reason to go to law school.

Also, the only people who should take out 6 figures of debt are the people working minimum wage jobs. They have nothing to lose. Whether law school is right is all about alternative options. People I think law school will benefit:

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

[rayiner]

I'm not saying that working big law paying off debt isn't better than working a minimum wage job. I'm saying that its a lousy reason to go to law school. I think it really raises red flags when someone who gets one worthless degree decides to try and get another just because they can't think of anything better to do. Its a recipe for dissatisfaction.

[timbs4339]

I didn't read 99% of this thread, but here's an important lesson for you: Hot women are not going to have sex with you because you are a lawyer. There are like one million lawyers. Don't go to law school because you think you'll get hot women.

[aboutmydaylight]

I'll be satisfied with a California 7.

[chem]

I think the fundamental problem with practicing lawyers is they have a nasty habit of engaging 0Ls on message boards instead of BILLING DEM HOURS

[dresden doll]

To be fair, I know plenty of lawyers worked before LS. Nor do I mean that someone who is earning min wage should take out six figures of debt for a TTT - obviously that is dumb. I don't disagree with any of that.

However, I have heard lots of lawyers (not necessarily on TLS) lament that they should have just worked in some consulting/finance/tech job paying >60k, and my point is that that option is not open for a lot of prospective law students.

The jobs do exist https://careers.epic.com/Home/ViewListings. Learn to network now as opposed to in law school. Being scared of being underemployed for a month or three is not a reason to go to law school.

Also, the only people who should take out 6 figures of debt are the people working minimum wage jobs. They have nothing to lose. Whether law school is right is all about alternative options. People I think law school will benefit:

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

Accurate.

I don't regret going to law school. I do, however, regret mishandling my application cycle. I could have gotten away with much less debt.

[mt2165]

Lol I'm from Cleveland. Honestly 60k is a solid living in Cleveland. If I did work I found remotely interesting with reasonable hours life REALLY would be pretty good. Free time is amazingly underrated if you ask me.

[Tiago Splitter]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

[rad lulz]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

In expensive areas you could rack up $100k in cost of living loans

[Nomo]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

Its a minority, but a non-negligible chunk of people who go to NYU and want biglaw/midlaw won't get it. Others will have offers revoked or will get laid off in year 1. Those people may well have been better off making 50k for 3 years and not incurring debt.

[Tiago Splitter]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

Its a minority, but a non-negligible chunk of people who go to NYU and want biglaw/midlaw won't get it. Others will have offers revoked or will get laid off in year 1. Those people may well have been better off making 50k for 3 years and not incurring debt.

Surely this isn't how you evaluate decisions. If it is, it wouldn't make sense for anyone with a job that they'd go back to if they strike out to take on any debt for any school.

[rickgrimes69]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

Its a minority, but a non-negligible chunk of people who go to NYU and want biglaw/midlaw won't get it. Others will have offers revoked or will get laid off in year 1. Those people may well have been better off making 50k for 3 years and not incurring debt.

I took on low six figures with the understanding that if I bombed my first year I'd cut my losses and drop out. I would expect (hope?) that others would make the same calculations and decide when to stop throwing good money after bad.

[jbagelboy]

1) Making less than 40k and see 50k cap - regional school (>50% LST score) for free/close to it or T14 at 5 figure debt
2) Making less than 60 and see 80k cap - T14 with less than six figure debt.
3) Hourly at less than $12, very underemployed, been looking for something better for a significant time period (>6 months) = go to law school no matter what the debt.

T-14 at 5 figure debt just isn't realistic for a lot of people, even if they pull off a 180 LSAT. Even the "full ride" for ED admits to Northwestern requires 5-10k per year in tuition plus three years of living expenses.

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

Its a minority, but a non-negligible chunk of people who go to NYU and want biglaw/midlaw won't get it. Others will have offers revoked or will get laid off in year 1. Those people may well have been better off making 50k for 3 years and not incurring debt.

Surely this isn't how you evaluate decisions. If it is, it wouldn't make sense for anyone with a job that they'd go back to if they strike out to take on any debt for any school.

Right. We evaluate decisions risk-neutral. If we define "better off" by EV then he's quite wrong. Assuming equal CoL in both cases, 125,000 in debt comes to maybe 50,000 in tuition total. But just to show how flawed Nomo's reasoning is, lets say $125000 tuition debt alone (so like a $10k/yr scholly). Projected out 5 years after graduation,

Job: SUM(x=0,x=7)(x)(50,000)((1.03)^x) assuming no layoffs, standard inflation pay increases which is very generous in recession

NYU: -125000 + 0.7*SUM(x=0,x=4)(x)(170,000)((1.10)^x) + 0.25*SUM(x=0,x=4)(x)(55,000)((1.03)^x) + 0.05*(45,000)(2.5) (assuming half of the 5% underemployed crowd spent half their 5 yrs out of work)

The NYU formula could be substantially expanded to include all outcomes - fedgov at ~70,000+, PI ranging from 40 to 60, ect. This is being very generous to "Job" and very harsh on NYU. And it's still going to come out stronger for our law school matriculant after 5 yrs. this would only widen over a career.

This is how rational people would make decisions.

[Johann]

And there's no way someone making 50k is worse off by going to a place like NYU for 125k in debt.

It's also a larger non-negligible group of people who hate the types of careers that pay back the loans. And probably a small percentage of people who just don't like law school. I think the ultimate goal when attending law school is to never be pot committed to working biglaw/finishing law school. For some that's too risk averse, and then 125k NYU debt is better than 50k salary. But that's the gray area, not the "no way" area.

[Crowing]

Where are these 9-5 jobs that pay 60k+ and allow you to buy a 4 bedroom house? Particularly, where are they for all the humanities majors applying to law school?

Not for humanities majors but accounting/ big 4 pays that starting.

Finance and accounting from good undergrads are probably a lot better than law.

Its really your fault for studying humanities. Not like business is difficult.

I don't disagree. But I thought I wanted to be a philosophy professor. Lol. When I saw JD statistics saying half of graduates on average get jobs, that sounded amazing at first.

I was going to be an English professor

Hey me too! Sure as hell could've been worse

[El Principe]

tag on the off chance someone has an answer

paralegal, plumber, welder, car salesman, garbageman, human resources, office manager, etc. can all make 60k+ eventually

You should happily go to law school before doing that job. It is also 100% not 9-5. More like 8-8, 6 days a week.

Im going to law school from being a car salesman! It sucked. Hours like the biglaw everyone describes but substantially less pay. Like 50-70k.

And that's relatively successful for sales if you're not in management. Plenty of guys on floors making 20-25K.

I don't know where someone thought selling cars is a consistent and comfortable way of making a living.

[reasonable_man]

As one of the most senior attorneys that still post (joined after I graduated LS in 08'), I'd just like to respond in a dignified and appropriate manner to OPs position:


Go fuck yourself.

[phireblast]

I'm interested in how many practicing attorneys who advise 0Ls away from law school would have been persuaded by their own words before they themselves enrolled. Something tells me not many.

[bjsesq]

I'm interested in how many practicing attorneys who advise 0Ls away from law school would have been persuaded by their own words before they themselves enrolled. Something tells me not many.

Probably true. What is your point?

[FuriousDuck]

...

[reasonable_man]

I'm interested in how many practicing attorneys who advise 0Ls away from law school would have been persuaded by their own words before they themselves enrolled. Something tells me not many.

Probably true. What is your point?

For people who presumably did well in school, said practicing attorneys really suck at persuasive writing. They've been in the position of a typical 0L, so if they really want to help us make better decisions rather than just vent their frustration at our ignorance, they could be doing a much better job.

There is very little that can be done to convince a 0L to not attend LS, if that 0L is already dead set on on taking the plunge. I don't really ever try to "convince" anyone not to go. I point out the flaws in their logic and their plans. But the advice given to me when I applied to law school (in 2004) would have had to have been very different by virtue of the fact that the legal landscape has changed dramatically since then. When I entered law school in the fall of 2005, you could attend a lower ranked school and still snag a "good" starting position earning ~$60,000 at a small to mid-sized firm and in a few years be earning a very nice salary. My first job out of law school paid roughly that amount and my salary has increased dramatically since then. The problem is that the those jobs largely do not exist anymore. Firms that were hiring for these positions in 2005-2008 are just not hiring today. So where do the graduates of lower ranked schools go to work after they graduate? I have no idea. Mid-sized firms, mine included, generally do not hire first years at this point because their are plenty of under-employed associates with 1 to 3 years experience that will accept a job offer at a strong mid-sized firm at a 1st year salary (so why bother hiring and training 3Ls). Those 1 to 3 year associates are just happy to get into a reputable firm. So honestly, I don't try to "convince" anyone of anything. I present the facts (sometimes harshly) and hope that someone looking to spend a lot of money on a low-ranked school will at least pause to question their decision.

Law is a funny profession. I now work alongside of T14 graduates. I happen to be pretty damn good at what I do and that combined with a lot of work and a fair amount of luck has allowed me to carve out a pretty nice career, so far (thankfully). But had I not had a solid place to start and had a few good breaks not went my way, I'd be where many of the graduates of my lower-ranked law school are today and believe me, those outcomes are not pretty.

[linkx13]

Tag for popcorn

[rayiner]

These expected value calculations miss the point. You should not be in law school if you don't want to be lawyer. If you're doing it for the money, you'll just end up as one of the many bitter assholes who look over with jealousy at the folks on the business side of the deals they work on.

I'm not telling everyone not to go to law school. Nearly everyone I know who went to NU eventually got at least a decent job that gives a good foundation for a legal career. But everybody's expectations and assumptions changed. People who thought law would be intellectually enriching were almost uniformly disillusioned. People who thought they would gun big law hard realized they wanted to put in a couple of years and then get out. My friend quit her big law job after a year and change because she worked for a sociopath who would hold in her shits to avoid interrupting her billing. Everyone underestimated the number of sociopaths in the profession. Everyone overestimated how quickly they could repay debt.

What I'm interested in, at least within the T14, is targeting people at the margin. Those people making a 5-year big law debt repayment schedule who would not go to law school if their actual outcome was two years of big law then exiting to a state government job making less than half as much. I want them to have a realistic understanding of what they're signing up for.

Me personally, I like being a lawyer. But my 0L assumptions haven't all been validated. I realized that there was a much higher chance that I couldn't stand it than I admitted to myself when I enrolled. I also have pretty much given up paying my debt on time. I thought I was going to live like a college student in Harlem for three years while paying down my debt. I can't do it. The lifestyle compromise is just too much for me to deal with while working those hours. So PAY-E it is.