Fordham Law School? Forum

[Otunga]

Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked

FTFY

Where the hell are most students getting $50,000 job offers, and in what field?

[jbagelboy]

Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked

FTFY

Where the hell are most students getting $50,000 job offers, and in what field?

They aren't. $50K salaried is a ridiculously good outcome out of a 4-yr BA/BS. 25% of recent college grads are unemployed, and of those employed, the median yearly income is $28-30K range.

[Gunnar Stahl]

Law School can be a worthwhile investment even if you don't come out of school making $160,000. Most students come out of undergrad with $50,000 job offers. You can still easily make twice the income out of law school and have a greater long term earning potential.

Actually the 250,000 debt (which assumes no scholarship) will amount to nearly 375,000. This is paid off at about 25,000 a year for 15 years. Fordham should give you a good shot at increasing your earning potential by 25,000 even if you miss biglaw. After those 15 years you will be doing far better. This ignores the differences in potential for growth in compensation

Anyway, i have no problem with Fordham. You have a 33% chance of making big law/A3 and that isn't bad. With a partial shollarship these numbers don't look as crooked

FTFY

Where the hell are most students getting $50,000 job offers, and in what field?

They aren't. $50K salaried is a ridiculously good outcome out of a 4-yr BA/BS. 25% of recent college grads are unemployed, and of those employed, the median yearly income is $28-30K range.

Exactly. Most people making over $50k either majored in something practical, had internships and good luck (Big 4 accounting, certain engineering fields, nursing, etc) or went to elite schools/had connections that got them banking/consulting type jobs.

It's that bad. Here's UMich as an example:

http://careercenter.umich.edu/article/f ... on-profile

[PepperJack]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

Not saying it's a sure thing, but if your goal is to take out loans to finance your life for 3 years and hope to get lucky that is much dumber. Realistically, if you're hard working and not a complete asshole you're not going to starve. You might if you're 200k in debt. The issue with high debt is it truly retards your ability to start from scratch.

I sold air jordans throughout college, which was a few hours of work each week and came out to another 5-10k per year. If you combine this with another 10k tutoring the SAT and 300/week waiting tables, you're already at 40k a year with no skills requiring a degree.

[jbagelboy]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

What? This is ridiculous. People try to do this kind of get rich quick bullshit all the time. It works out one in a thousand times or less.

Not saying it's a sure thing, but if your goal is to take out loans to finance your life for 3 years and hope to get lucky that is much dumber. Realistically, if you're hard working and not a complete asshole you're not going to starve. You might if you're 200k in debt. The issue with high debt is it truly retards your ability to start from scratch.

Well I agree being poor and in debt is worse than just being poor. But its a risk analysis. Many young college (and masters) grads are only not starving because they are already middle or upper middle class and they can move back in with their parents who have the resources to procure victuals for their impotent overeducated children.

I sold air jordans throughout college, which was a few hours of work each week and came out to another 5-10k per year. If you combine this with another 10k tutoring the SAT and 300/week waiting tables, you're already at 40k a year with no skills requiring a degree.

This is a myth, and an insulting and incredibly problematic one. You sound like Newt Gingrich. All three of these jobs are competitive in a crippled market. Securing one part time job can be a challenge. Securing three is substantially more difficult. SAT tutoring typically requires scoring over 2200, which might be a easy assumption for some of us, but not 90-95% of the population. I did tutor SAT throughout college on weekends and private tutoring, and let me tell you, the hours are inconsistent, classes are often cancelled, and the vast majority of the profit goes to the prep company, not to the teacher.

300/week "waiting tables"? Maybe in a high volume "superior good" restaurant in an affluent community, but not in most of the country (hours + tip usually comes to within 50 cents of minimum wage; 300/week would be 44 hours of work each week at this national rate for food service; it's highly unlikely an one employee would be offered this many shifts, but even if they were, when would they sell shoes and teach test prep then?). And 40K? where are you getting this from? More like $25K after tax in a year for someone with 45-50 hours of wage earning work per week. Barely enough to stay above the poverty line for a single person in any metropolitan area, not to mention a family of any kind. EVEN assuming your PT job in college earned you 10K (Which is high), you are thinking people make THIRTY THOUSAND dollars a year on odd jobs? what a joke

[PepperJack]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

What? This is ridiculous. People try to do this kind of get rich quick bullshit all the time. It works out one in a thousand times or less.

Not saying it's a sure thing, but if your goal is to take out loans to finance your life for 3 years and hope to get lucky that is much dumber. Realistically, if you're hard working and not a complete asshole you're not going to starve. You might if you're 200k in debt. The issue with high debt is it truly retards your ability to start from scratch.

Well I agree being poor and in debt is worse than just being poor. But its a risk analysis. Many young college (and masters) grads are only not starving because they are already middle or upper middle class and they can move back in with their parents who have the resources to procure victuals for their impotent overeducated children.

I sold air jordans throughout college, which was a few hours of work each week and came out to another 5-10k per year. If you combine this with another 10k tutoring the SAT and 300/week waiting tables, you're already at 40k a year with no skills requiring a degree.

This is a myth, and an insulting and incredibly problematic one. You sound like Newt Gingrich. All three of these jobs are competitive in a crippled market. Securing one part time job can be a challenge. Securing three is substantially more difficult. SAT tutoring typically requires scoring over 2200, which might be a easy assumption for some of us, but not 90-95% of the population. I did tutor SAT throughout college on weekends and private tutoring, and let me tell you, the hours are inconsistent, classes are often cancelled, and the vast majority of the profit goes to the prep company, not to the teacher.

300/week "waiting tables"? Maybe in a high volume "superior good" restaurant in an affluent community, but not in most of the country (hours + tip usually comes to within 50 cents of minimum wage; 300/week would be 44 hours of work each week at this national rate for food service; it's highly unlikely an one employee would be offered this many shifts, but even if they were, when would they sell shoes and teach test prep then?). And 40K? where are you getting this from? More like $25K after tax in a year for someone with 45-50 hours of wage earning work per week. Barely enough to stay above the poverty line for a single person in any metropolitan area, not to mention a family of any kind. EVEN assuming your PT job in college earned you 10K (Which is high), you are thinking people make THIRTY THOUSAND dollars a year on odd jobs? what a joke

You can find students on your own.

I never waited tables so i'm assuming, but in similar odd jobs i made about 10/hour.

Jordans release at 8 AM on Saturdays (used to be midnight). You are allowed one per store. They sell for $160, and you can normally swing them off for about $300. IDK if it's illegal but you could bribe the Footlocker guy to let you get a second pair if you forma relationship before hand for $50. I'd also find individuals drinking beer outside the bodega and offer them 30 dollars each and free food to stand online for a few hours. It wasn't rare to make 600-800 on a single weekend when I needed the money. There was the additional risk that if you're promoting them on craigslist, you could get set up to be robbed or shot. However, if you have good instincts and trust them the odds of getting shot are minimal.

There are some pairs that you can literally flip for 800% profit margin so an 800 dollar profit per pair, but people camp out weeks for them and I never needed $ that bad. You could also likely bribe employees but these are so sought after that it takes more than a casual friendship with the employees so I never was able to get on those.

Keep in mind, it's not a full weekend of work. Maybe 2 hours of planning, 3 hours total waiting in line and getting the inventory, 15 min on craigslist and then corresponding through text while you're working your other odd job making 10/hour.

This is what I did when I NEEDED money - it's a nice side thing. Sure, there's 100 things like it for 20 year olds.

[jbagelboy]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

What? This is ridiculous. People try to do this kind of get rich quick bullshit all the time. It works out one in a thousand times or less.

Not saying it's a sure thing, but if your goal is to take out loans to finance your life for 3 years and hope to get lucky that is much dumber. Realistically, if you're hard working and not a complete asshole you're not going to starve. You might if you're 200k in debt. The issue with high debt is it truly retards your ability to start from scratch.

Well I agree being poor and in debt is worse than just being poor. But its a risk analysis. Many young college (and masters) grads are only not starving because they are already middle or upper middle class and they can move back in with their parents who have the resources to procure victuals for their impotent overeducated children.

I sold air jordans throughout college, which was a few hours of work each week and came out to another 5-10k per year. If you combine this with another 10k tutoring the SAT and 300/week waiting tables, you're already at 40k a year with no skills requiring a degree.

This is a myth, and an insulting and incredibly problematic one. You sound like Newt Gingrich. All three of these jobs are competitive in a crippled market. Securing one part time job can be a challenge. Securing three is substantially more difficult. SAT tutoring typically requires scoring over 2200, which might be a easy assumption for some of us, but not 90-95% of the population. I did tutor SAT throughout college on weekends and private tutoring, and let me tell you, the hours are inconsistent, classes are often cancelled, and the vast majority of the profit goes to the prep company, not to the teacher.

300/week "waiting tables"? Maybe in a high volume "superior good" restaurant in an affluent community, but not in most of the country (hours + tip usually comes to within 50 cents of minimum wage; 300/week would be 44 hours of work each week at this national rate for food service; it's highly unlikely an one employee would be offered this many shifts, but even if they were, when would they sell shoes and teach test prep then?). And 40K? where are you getting this from? More like $25K after tax in a year for someone with 45-50 hours of wage earning work per week. Barely enough to stay above the poverty line for a single person in any metropolitan area, not to mention a family of any kind. EVEN assuming your PT job in college earned you 10K (Which is high), you are thinking people make THIRTY THOUSAND dollars a year on odd jobs? what a joke

You can find students on your own.

I never waited tables so i'm assuming, but in similar odd jobs i made about 10/hour.

Jordans release at 8 AM on Saturdays (used to be midnight). You are allowed one per store. They sell for $160, and you can normally swing them off for about $300. IDK if it's illegal but you could bribe the Footlocker guy to let you get a second pair if you forma relationship before hand for $50. I'd also find individuals drinking beer outside the bodega and offer them 30 dollars each and free food to stand online for a few hours. It wasn't rare to make 600-800 on a single weekend when I needed the money. There was the additional risk that if you're promoting them on craigslist, you could get set up to be robbed or shot. However, if you have good instincts and trust them the odds of getting shot are minimal.

There are some pairs that you can literally flip for 800% profit margin so an 800 dollar profit per pair, but people camp out weeks for them and I never needed $ that bad. You could also likely bribe employees but these are so sought after that it takes more than a casual friendship with the employees so I never was able to get on those.

Keep in mind, it's not a full weekend of work. Maybe 2 hours of planning, 3 hours total waiting in line and getting the inventory, 15 min on craigslist and then corresponding through text while you're working your other odd job making 10/hour.

This is what I did when I NEEDED money - it's a nice side thing. Sure, there's 100 things like it for 20 year olds.

Yea, and you can sell shitty cocaine you bartered in exchange for writing a philosophy paper for your college suitemate to your sister and her twigged friends and make a few hundred dollars a week too. Selling shit on craigslist and trying to rip off designer merchandise isn't a stable income or a legitimate way to support yourself as a college grad - also not a great start to a legal career. Look at the actual employment data and speak to unemployed folks looking for work or people in these industries. It's not so easy.

[RoaringMice]

I think most biglaw employers higher from the top schools because:
1. Prestige
2. Prestige
3. Prestige
4. They are probably smarter
5. Prestige

Go to any biglaw website and look at the lawyer profiles. They like to put your school, Order of Coif, Magna Cum Laude, law review, etc. next your name. They want to be able to tell their big clients that they have XX associates from Yale or Harvard. It’s all about prestige in the end. But if you can’t get into a T14 school, you need to be in the top of your class- not because that makes you smart- because then your employer can list you on their website with “Magna cum laude” or “law review” under your name. Maybe I’m wrong but that is the way I see.

Going a bit further with this, I have seen a few lower than T14 schools at the top law firms, absolutely. But those hires are the extreme exceptions, rather than the rules - those hires tend to be exceptional - top of law school class, law review, with 14 years as active duty in the Marines, etc. They aren't your typical "Northeastern" or "Fordham" or etc. grad. They are the top of the top of the NE or Fordham grads. That's been my observation.

[Otunga]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

Then why go to school at all?

[PepperJack]

I think a lot of people could make 50k or more with a degree in anything. If you learn something other people could use or supply something they'll need, you could start a web based business with friends. If you have 1 buddy who knows web design, another who is could at selling and another who has some skill, you likely would make more than you would with entry level appointment. The problem with most college grads is they're not really useful for anything.

Then why go to school at all?

Many people can make 160 in law. I don't think Fordham with a lot of money is a bad bet. Only about 20% get something through OCI, and the sticker people come in less likely to be on of the 20%. If you're a very attractive female, a URM or very good at working a room then maybe you can be a bit lower. If you're awkward in some way then maybe you'd need top 10%. The issue is when people say something like why Fordham, then their next step is to say well St. John's isn't too far off from that. Now, they're speaking about a school where they'd need to be top 2-3% to have any shot at a good outcome.

If you question is why go to college at all if you don't have a set plan in place, I think that is a valid question. I fail to see how taking out heavy loans, cramming for passing grades in ancient Babylonia 101, binge drinking, awkward sexual encounters, depraved morality and a developing fear of the real world produce a better outcome than learning a trade or exploring with innovation.

Making middle/working class children who have not enjoyed academia for 12 grades and have no direction or plan feel like they "need to have the college experience to become an adult" likely has a severe net negative outcome for most of them all while depreciating the universal value of a college degree.

The model has evolved from it being reserved only for the upper class or people with a set plan to a universal necessity. The positive of this it creates more competition in price, but the negative is the value falls of and children develop an unrealistic expectation of what they will make. The model is failing. Your parents' generation took to the streets to protest war and the mistreatment of disadvantaged groups. Your generation took to the streets to protest they don't have any money and want some. The economy is much different now than it was then, but if the current model doesn't work for the current (and likely future) economy, then why would you stick to the model?

[lgleye]

.

[fordhamlawagent]

Please, for the love of all things holy, do not base a decision as important as this on ANYTHING you read on this blog. This place is mostly for former T-14ers who are miserable with their decision to go to law school and like to come on to random boards to make others feel shitty about going to a less "elite" school. It's total nonsense.

I went to Fordham Law and it was the best decision of my life. Did I get on Law review? No. Did I finish below median? Yes. (2011)

Fordham has tons of respect with all the big firms here in NYC and also with all the big businesses. I got a job working with the top sports agency in the world out of Fordham Law and am making 4 times what my friends in big law are making (and working much better hours and having more fun too). In fact, had I gone to a more "elite" school (and please, give me a break with these phony US News rankings), I would NOT have gotten a job here because of the mostly true stigma of kids coming out of those schools (big ego, poor social skills). Almost all of the agents who are lawyers went to schools ranked 50-200 and they're the top agents in the field (see, Tom Condon, Ben Dogra etc.). Having a law degree gets you a pay bump in any field you go into and makes you seem much more legitimate in any negotiation. It's TOTALLY worth it, regardless if you make big law or not.

Think of it this way: Say you live for only 20 more years after law school, do you think you will make $10,000 more per year than you would have without a law degree. Smart money says "Yes." If you want to go to law school, do it; don't listen to these pessimistic and egotistical anonymous posters who probably couldn't even have a conversation with you in person. Do it, and Fordham is a GREAT school with great professors and awesome students. You can't go wrong.

[jk148706]

It's TOTALLY worth it, regardless if you make big law or not.

Lollllzz

[hephaestus]

Please, for the love of all things holy, do not base a decision as important as this on ANYTHING you read on this blog. This place is mostly for former T-14ers who are miserable with their decision to go to law school and like to come on to random boards to make others feel shitty about going to a less "elite" school. It's total nonsense.

I went to Fordham Law and it was the best decision of my life. Did I get on Law review? No. Did I finish below median? Yes. (2011)

Fordham has tons of respect with all the big firms here in NYC and also with all the big businesses. I got a job working with the top sports agency in the world out of Fordham Law and am making 4 times what my friends in big law are making (and working much better hours and having more fun too). In fact, had I gone to a more "elite" school (and please, give me a break with these phony US News rankings), I would NOT have gotten a job here because of the mostly true stigma of kids coming out of those schools (big ego, poor social skills). Almost all of the agents who are lawyers here went to schools ranked 50-200 and they're the top agents in the field (see, Tom Condon, Ben Dogra etc.). Having a law degree gets you a pay bump in any field you go into and makes you seem much more legitimate in any negotiation. It's TOTALLY worth it, regardless if you make big law or not.

Think of it this way: Say you live for only 20 more years after law school, do you think you will make $10,000 more per year than you would have without a law degree. Smart money says "Yes." If you want to go to law school, do it; don't listen to these pessimistic and egotistical anonymous posters who probably couldn't even have a conversation with you in person. Do it, and Fordham is a GREAT school with great professors and awesome students. You can't go wrong.

Nice anecdote. The data says that a large portion of your class is unemployed or underemployed, and paid 200k for the privilege.

[mephistopheles]

I got a job working with the top sports agency in the world out of Fordham Law and am making 4 times what my friends in big law are making (and working much better hours and having more fun too).

so, you're making more than half a mil right out of the gate?

[fordhamlawagent]

After 3 years here, yes, I am making well over half a million. And Fordham did that for me.

[hephaestus]

After 3 years here, yes, I am making well over half a million. And Fordham did that for me.

But you agree this outcome is atypical, correct?

[mephistopheles]

And Fordham did that for me.

lol, if true, there seems to be a bit of a correlation/causation problem going on here, making me doubt your story.

[Ramius]

After 3 years here, yes, I am making well over half a million. And Fordham did that for me.

I'd say Fordham didn't prevent you from doing this, not the cause of it. Rational people acknowledge that people can have incredibly positive outcomes from all manners of education and on the entire spectrum of law schools. The point isn't "what is X school going to do for me?" It's "what are my chances of a positive outcome at X school and how much am I going to pay for it?" I'm sure you'd take a $200k gamble again on Fordham because it worked out so well for you, but can you say the same thing for your friends who ended up unemployed or in undercompensated jobs? It's not about anecdotes. Rely on data and relative risk and reward. In that sense, for a lot of people, Fordham isn't worth it. Some have exceptional circumstances and it's a fine choice for them, but people need to decide for themselves if they really are one of those people.

[fordhamlawagent]

Yes, seeing as there are only a handful of agents in the industry, and getting these jobs is virtually impossible - I'd definitely say my result was atypical.

I wasn't posting on the site to tell everyone that going to Fordham guarantees you a job as a top-paying agent. I'm only trying to dispell some of the myths that are prevalant on this board which accomplosh nothing except for discouraging people from going to law school (outside the T-14 that is).

My point is that going to Fordham opened a lot of doors for me and obviously I had to take advantage of them in order to succeed. To say it's T-14 or bust though (especially for someone such as this who wants to use his law degree in other fields) is just complete nonsense. A law degree is valuable in any industry and creative, hard-working, and social people can have great careers after law school.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Please, for the love of all things holy, do not base a decision as important as this on ANYTHING you read on this blog. This place is mostly for former T-14ers who are miserable with their decision to go to law school and like to come on to random boards to make others feel shitty about going to a less "elite" school. It's total nonsense.

I went to Fordham Law and it was the best decision of my life. Did I get on Law review? No. Did I finish below median? Yes. (2011)

Fordham has tons of respect with all the big firms here in NYC and also with all the big businesses. I got a job working with the top sports agency in the world out of Fordham Law and am making 4 times what my friends in big law are making (and working much better hours and having more fun too). In fact, had I gone to a more "elite" school (and please, give me a break with these phony US News rankings), I would NOT have gotten a job here because of the mostly true stigma of kids coming out of those schools (big ego, poor social skills). Almost all of the agents who are lawyers went to schools ranked 50-200 and they're the top agents in the field (see, Tom Condon, Ben Dogra etc.). Having a law degree gets you a pay bump in any field you go into and makes you seem much more legitimate in any negotiation. It's TOTALLY worth it, regardless if you make big law or not.

Think of it this way: Say you live for only 20 more years after law school, do you think you will make $10,000 more per year than you would have without a law degree. Smart money says "Yes." If you want to go to law school, do it; don't listen to these pessimistic and egotistical anonymous posters who probably couldn't even have a conversation with you in person. Do it, and Fordham is a GREAT school with great professors and awesome students. You can't go wrong.

140

True quality trolling is more subtle than this.

[fordhamlawagent]

One positive post = trolling

hundreds of pessimistic garbage = "advice"

.....Typical TLS

and by the way, all of that is true.

[jbagelboy]

One positive post = trolling

hundreds of pessimistic garbage = "advice"

.....Typical TLS

and by the way, all of that is true.

Your contribution is not "positive" when it furthers and intentionally asserts a dangerous fallacy whose devastating impact afflicts tens of thousands of law students and alumni from the past 5 years. No one gives a shit whether or not your story is true. We have real data now, which was sadly lacking when you allegedly enrolled at Fordham, to obviate this "positive" mythology, and its been widely discussed in the media and has begun to make subtstantive impact on public perception. One of your compatriats, a 2L at Fordham, recently created the thread: struck out at Fordham OCI, how to avoid starvation? And he wasn't even kidding. Best objective choice is probably for him to drop out and avoid added debt. Your attitude has ruined many lives, but the tide is thankfully turning. Nothing you have said is positive. Its entirely the opposite.

FWIW, not a bitter grad here, Im actually a current 1L and Im actually enjoying (as much as one can) my law school experience and satisfied with my choice.

[tbesancon]

.

[cotiger]

Please, for the love of all things holy, do not base a decision as important as this on ANYTHING you read on this blog. This place is mostly for former T-14ers who are miserable with their decision to go to law school and like to come on to random boards to make others feel shitty about going to a less "elite" school. It's total nonsense.

Wrong. This place is mostly 0Ls/1Ls who know what percentages mean and are trying to warn others against being on the wrong side of them.