T6 vs T10 vs T14 Forum

[JamesDean1955]

Gotcha DF, very helpful, thanks. I'd like to think that career services would advise students better, but that's wishful thinking. I went to a pretty good undergrad and our CSO sucked terribly.

I'd also like to think that you could make those 15 first bids count by having a wealth of knowledge available to you and selecting a mix of 5 Chicago/5 NYC/ 5 DC firms, all with very big SA classes, are in your grade range, recruit heavily from your school, and have high offer rates. But I guess that's very wishful thinking.

Lol same. my prelaw adviser told me I should expect to get into Stanford given my UG, internships and WE. Wasn't till I got to TLS that I realized just how flawed that logic was.

Yeah lol...and our OCI sucked...and this was for business majors and business gigs! Which you would think would be more plentiful. And Simplicity postings are a friggin joke...both in terms of the quality of the postings and chances of getting a job through it. When I saw that law schools have Simplicity postings I just .

/end thread hijack.

[untar614]

Gotcha DF, very helpful, thanks. I'd like to think that career services would advise students better, but that's wishful thinking. I went to a pretty good undergrad and our CSO sucked terribly.

I'd also like to think that you could make those 15 first bids count by having a wealth of knowledge available to you and selecting a mix of 5 Chicago/5 NYC/ 5 DC firms, all with very big SA classes, are in your grade range, recruit heavily from your school, and have high offer rates. But I guess that's very wishful thinking.

You could maybe do 10/5. But even then the problem is 1) There really isn't such a thing as a safety firm, especially if you don't have great grades. and 2) The less selective big firms go high in bidding because they are less selective. Cadwalader will fill up before DPW.

Part of the problem for career services, is that strategies that will work for individuals, fall apart if the CSO tells everyone to do it.

This presents an interesting game theory problem. We need to get some mathematicians into the CSOs to determine the Nash equilibrium.

[IAFG]

Gotcha DF, very helpful, thanks. I'd like to think that career services would advise students better, but that's wishful thinking. I went to a pretty good undergrad and our CSO sucked terribly.

I'd also like to think that you could make those 15 first bids count by having a wealth of knowledge available to you and selecting a mix of 5 Chicago/5 NYC/ 5 DC firms, all with very big SA classes, are in your grade range, recruit heavily from your school, and have high offer rates. But I guess that's very wishful thinking.

Eh. Top 5% + good WE + LR could possibly pull this off. The vast majority of people do not have safety firms, as DF already pointed out. Firms that are doing well and hiring a lot of people are more selective.

Before I did OCI, I thought being above a grade cutoff meant you had a good shot at an offer. What surprised me the most was how many people with excellent grades only pulled a couple of offers. It's not that uncommon to have one offer and for it to be a V5.

[skers]

Gotcha DF, very helpful, thanks. I'd like to think that career services would advise students better, but that's wishful thinking. I went to a pretty good undergrad and our CSO sucked terribly.

I'd also like to think that you could make those 15 first bids count by having a wealth of knowledge available to you and selecting a mix of 5 Chicago/5 NYC/ 5 DC firms, all with very big SA classes, are in your grade range, recruit heavily from your school, and have high offer rates. But I guess that's very wishful thinking.

Eh. Top 5% + good WE + LR could possibly pull this off. The vast majority of people do not have safety firms, as DF already pointed out. Firms that are doing well and hiring a lot of people are more selective.

Before I did OCI, I thought being above a grade cutoff meant you had a good shot at an offer. What surprised me the most was how many people with excellent grades only pulled a couple of offers. It's not that uncommon to have one offer and for it to be a V5.

Hmm. I'd always thought top 25% was pretty job secure at OCi.

[09042014]

Gotcha DF, very helpful, thanks. I'd like to think that career services would advise students better, but that's wishful thinking. I went to a pretty good undergrad and our CSO sucked terribly.

I'd also like to think that you could make those 15 first bids count by having a wealth of knowledge available to you and selecting a mix of 5 Chicago/5 NYC/ 5 DC firms, all with very big SA classes, are in your grade range, recruit heavily from your school, and have high offer rates. But I guess that's very wishful thinking.

Eh. Top 5% + good WE + LR could possibly pull this off. The vast majority of people do not have safety firms, as DF already pointed out. Firms that are doing well and hiring a lot of people are more selective.

Before I did OCI, I thought being above a grade cutoff meant you had a good shot at an offer. What surprised me the most was how many people with excellent grades only pulled a couple of offers. It's not that uncommon to have one offer and for it to be a V5.

Hmm. I'd always thought top 25% was pretty job secure at OCi.

GPA'S RISE
INTERVIEWS FALL
SOCIAL AWKWARDNESS REMAINS

[rickgrimes69]

jfc who revived this cesspool of a thread

T10 is an utterly meaningless distinction. T6 slightly less so, but still pretty meaningless. If you're forced to make tiers it's simply HYS v. T13.

[bk1]

GPA'S RISE
INTERVIEWS FALL
SOCIAL AWKWARDNESS REMAINS

[suralin]

HYS CCN MVP DNCG are tiers were created to model the ACCEPTANCE patterns of the schools. Not the quality, and certainly not job prospects. It's also why Boalt isn't even assigned a place because it's got an unusual recruiting pattern and doesn't have a clear peer.

ALL of this shit was created by 21-23 year old aspies on princeton review web forums.

YHS isn't even a full thing. It's clearly better but not game-changing for most things. It's game changing for clerkships and academia, but outside of that, it's not all that different. Columbia and Harvard's ability to place into big law isn't substantially different.

CCN is less of a real distinction but there is a pattern here that makes it somewhat useful. NYC V20 take CCN students in large numbers year after year. If you want V5, V10 or even V20 in NYC, these schools are clearly better. These firms often have pretty stringent requirements for non T6, T14. There is also some self selection going on. A Chicago bro will take Jenner block over Debevoise, which might make NU and Michigan look worse in terms of vault rankings. But I think a real advantage at top firms exists for CCN.

But once you get outside these schools top third of the class, they aren't really better off than the rest of the T14. Do you think a Texas firm is going to say, fuck this Michigan grad with A- grades, I've got a U of C grad with A-/B+ grades? No.

So the CCN tier doesn't really make a huge difference in whether you get big law or not. It might increase your chances of V5 or V10 but when you are scarping the bottom of the NLJ350, it's not a benefit. How much value you'd wanna place on going to Debevoise over Jenner Block.

As for T10, it doesn't exist. Firms--outside of hometown favorites--don't really distinguish between lower T14 IN THE AGGREGATE. Some firms think NU is TTT, some firms don't recruit at Duke, and some firms love Michigan, but it all cancels out.

This is funny coming from me (since I pushed for t13 for the lulz for so long), but Georgetown is probably, at most, a half step behind other t14. A lot of their placement gap is due to weird DC jobs, DC market just being hard as fuck to get, and part time program. But, the size of the school definitely hurts their placement.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. So to clarify/confirm, for getting BigLaw, Cornell is essentially just as good as Mich/UVA/Penn even though its USNews ranking is lower? That is, in general, firms have the same GPA cut-offs for Cornell as they do for MVP?

[untar614]

HYS CCN MVP DNCG are tiers were created to model the ACCEPTANCE patterns of the schools. Not the quality, and certainly not job prospects. It's also why Boalt isn't even assigned a place because it's got an unusual recruiting pattern and doesn't have a clear peer.

ALL of this shit was created by 21-23 year old aspies on princeton review web forums.

YHS isn't even a full thing. It's clearly better but not game-changing for most things. It's game changing for clerkships and academia, but outside of that, it's not all that different. Columbia and Harvard's ability to place into big law isn't substantially different.

CCN is less of a real distinction but there is a pattern here that makes it somewhat useful. NYC V20 take CCN students in large numbers year after year. If you want V5, V10 or even V20 in NYC, these schools are clearly better. These firms often have pretty stringent requirements for non T6, T14. There is also some self selection going on. A Chicago bro will take Jenner block over Debevoise, which might make NU and Michigan look worse in terms of vault rankings. But I think a real advantage at top firms exists for CCN.

But once you get outside these schools top third of the class, they aren't really better off than the rest of the T14. Do you think a Texas firm is going to say, fuck this Michigan grad with A- grades, I've got a U of C grad with A-/B+ grades? No.

So the CCN tier doesn't really make a huge difference in whether you get big law or not. It might increase your chances of V5 or V10 but when you are scarping the bottom of the NLJ350, it's not a benefit. How much value you'd wanna place on going to Debevoise over Jenner Block.

As for T10, it doesn't exist. Firms--outside of hometown favorites--don't really distinguish between lower T14 IN THE AGGREGATE. Some firms think NU is TTT, some firms don't recruit at Duke, and some firms love Michigan, but it all cancels out.

This is funny coming from me (since I pushed for t13 for the lulz for so long), but Georgetown is probably, at most, a half step behind other t14. A lot of their placement gap is due to weird DC jobs, DC market just being hard as fuck to get, and part time program. But, the size of the school definitely hurts their placement.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. So to clarify/confirm, for getting BigLaw, Cornell is essentially just as good as Mich/UVA/Penn even though its USNews ranking is lower? That is, in general, firms have the same GPA cut-offs for Cornell as they do for MVP?

but if this is true, then how do you account for the 20 percentage point difference in biglaw+fed clerk % between CLS and Mich? It seems someone from above median from either school should be able to get biglaw if they don't f something else up, but this would tell me that the impact would be at the lower end, say 40th %ile, where someone at CLS from the 40th %ile still has a good shot at biglaw, while someone from the 40th %ile from Michigan is gonna face some serious adversity. Can this be entirely attributed just to bidding strategy and the NY market being stronger? I know its not PI self selection as both have equal PI %s.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Michigan grads shooting for Biglaw last year whiffed pretty hard by T14 standards--15% of the class in <250 firms. Everywhere else (except GULC, obviously) seems to be doing roughly equivalent.

[Jay Obee]

HYS CCN MVP DNCG are tiers were created to model the ACCEPTANCE patterns of the schools. Not the quality, and certainly not job prospects. It's also why Boalt isn't even assigned a place because it's got an unusual recruiting pattern and doesn't have a clear peer.

ALL of this shit was created by 21-23 year old aspies on princeton review web forums.

.....

You are overthinking this. All of the T-whatever nonsense comes from USNWR. Any further breakdown is based 90% on perceptions already in place due to USNWR. Berkeley is only hard to place because it was ranked as low as 13th a couple of times and tied with Chicago after that, and now back down to 10. To the extent it didn't originally reflect reality, the rankings themselves affected reality. Stanford made the top 3 in USNWR due to endowment and the tech boom, and it used to have fewer clerkships than Chicago, but its persistent ranking in the USNWR has changed the reputation among applicants and employers, including judges. If Columbia was ranked #2 throughout the 90's and early 00's instead of Stanford, then it would now be the clerking powerhouse. Shoot, if the rankings had Stanford never making #2 and being always sandwiched between #2 Harvard and #4 Columbia every year, people would probably be talking about HY> SCCN > MVPB.

This is why schools care about their ranking so much now. Chicago has been kicking itself in the ass for the last 5-10 years for essentially ignoring the USNWR rankings, but now everyone is on board that that sht matters in real life. Probably too late to get ahead just by finally learning to game the rankings, though, since people actually have information about reality and don't have to blindly rely on USNWR.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... sn_history

edit: historical rankings 87-99 http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999

historical rankings 00's http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

[IAFG]

HYS CCN MVP DNCG are tiers were created to model the ACCEPTANCE patterns of the schools. Not the quality, and certainly not job prospects. It's also why Boalt isn't even assigned a place because it's got an unusual recruiting pattern and doesn't have a clear peer.

ALL of this shit was created by 21-23 year old aspies on princeton review web forums.

.....

You are overthinking this. All of the T-whatever nonsense comes from USNWR. Any further breakdown is based 90% on perceptions already in place due to USNWR. Berkeley is only hard to place because it was ranked as low as 13th a couple of times and tied with Chicago after that, and now back down to 10. To the extent it didn't originally reflect reality, the rankings themselves affected reality. Stanford made the top 3 in USNWR due to endowment and the tech boom, and it used to have fewer clerkships than Chicago, but its persistent ranking in the USNWR has changed the reputation among applicants and employers, including judges. If Columbia was ranked #2 throughout the 90's and early 00's instead of Stanford, then it would now be the clerking powerhouse. Shoot, if the rankings had Stanford never making #2 and being always sandwiched between #2 Harvard and #4 Columbia every year, people would probably be talking about HY> SCCN > MVPB.

This is why schools care about their ranking so much now. Chicago has been kicking itself in the ass for the last 5-10 years for essentially ignoring the USNWR rankings, but now everyone is on board that that sht matters in real life. Probably too late to get ahead just by finally learning to game the rankings, though, since people actually have information about reality and don't have to blindly rely on USNWR.

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... sn_history

edit: historical rankings 87-99 http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999

historical rankings 00's http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

He's not "overthinking" it, he's right. The mini-tiers are a TLS creation, coming out of a time when said mini-tiers were admissions peers. Of course they highly correlate with USNWR historical trends: LSAT and GPA are a big part of their metric.

[Jay Obee]

It doesn't matter. I'm just pointing out that, once you start with the USNWR and look at more than a couple of years, the "Mini-Tiers" are pretty obvious. Another example from LSD in 2004:
"HYS = always top 3
CCN = always next 3
7-14 = always 7-14 in some order"

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/inde ... ic=15985.0 "Why T14?"

Shiznit is pretty rudimentary, and didn't require any sort of groupthink beyond any non-idiot looking at multiple-year rankings of USNWR.

[09042014]

Obviously USNEWS does play a role, but I think the tiers part is pretty much broken along "how hard is it to get into" tiers. Which USNEWS definitely effects by creating a feedback loop. But there is a reason it's HYS not HYSC or even HYSCC. Or CCNM or CCN. Or MVBNu or whatever.

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates. As a USNEWS news grouping, especially in the early 2000's when they originated, it's not that useful. I don't see why they'd group them like that. Espeically since in the era it was created, Penn kinda lagged in USNEWS during that period yet still got MVP. It also doesn't explain why B is mysteriously missing when it was pretty consistantly in the 7-10 range.

Why am I arguing about this. I'm further proving that ANYTHING is more fun that bar vids.

[rickgrimes69]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Edit: also Duke v. Michigan at equal $$ is an extremely common scenario.

[dixiecupdrinking]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Hey dude, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Honestly this whole thread needs to be taken out back and shot.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

No one argued that CCN haven't consistently occupied 4-6 in USNWR for more than a decade. I'm just arguing that, outside MAYBE V10 firms, CCN is a relatively meaningless distinction. Outside of HYS, each of CCNMVPB has an advantage over the rest depending on the market, and DNC (I don't feel like starting a GULC argument) will all place competitively with those schools. Presuming you value a law school on what jobs it can get you and not how hard it is to get into, this is relevant to saying that even though the T6/T10 do exist in terms of the same schools occupying the same areas in USNWR, the distinctions are relatively meaningless. Again, the most important considerations are: a) From what schools will you always have an advantage? and b) From what schools will you always be considered? The answers to the questions are, respectively, T3 and T14.

[rickgrimes69]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Hey dude, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Not really. I guess I could have clarified and said anybody concerned with getting a good job. All else equal, there's no good reason to pick G over D/N and no reason to pick M/V over P.

Honestly this whole thread needs to be taken out back and shot.

This is something I think we can all agree on.

[untar614]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Hey dude, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Not really. I guess I could have clarified and said anybody concerned with getting a good job. All else equal, there's no good reason to pick G over D/N and no reason to pick M/V over P.

Honestly this whole thread needs to be taken out back and shot.

This is something I think we can all agree on.

I do, and think these "peer groups" are pretty bad. Unless there's a major cost difference, Duke > GULC and Penn > Michigan if getting a good job is your goal. Just look at the individual placement data. These groupings are worthless.

[BigZuck]

You two are about to bring down some major M butt hurt on your asses if you keep it up. B bros might even pop in if you don't cut it out.

[Huey Freeman]

ITT: Everyone justifies where they're going to lawl school?

[untar614]

You two are about to bring down some major M butt hurt on your asses if you keep it up. B bros might even pop in if you don't cut it out.

Lol, why would B bros hop in? no one's really talked about berk cuz no one's really sure where they fit in. And it's not like I think Mich is a bad school - it's a very good school, and in fact I find it ridiculous that firms would rather skim the top off a bunch of Tier 2s and TTTs than take people below median at Michigan, but that's how it is unfortunately (another negative consequence of too many law schools, but that's more pertaining to another thread), and Penn has definitively better job placement than Mich (and better admissions stats), so you really can't treat them as equals.

[BigZuck]

You two are about to bring down some major M butt hurt on your asses if you keep it up. B bros might even pop in if you don't cut it out.

Lol, why would B bros hop in? no one's really talked about berk cuz no one's really sure where they fit in. And it's not like I think Mich is a bad school - it's a very good school, and in fact I find it ridiculous that firms would rather skim the top off a bunch of Tier 2s and TTTs than take people below median at Michigan, but that's how it is unfortunately (another negative consequence of too many law schools, but that's more pertaining to another thread), and Penn has definitively better job placement than Mich (and better admissions stats), so you really can't treat them as equals.

MVP(B) (minus the P to be honest) butt hurt is a very, very real thing. You guys have chummed the waters, before you know it there will be M bros screaming "SELF SELECTION!!!!" and B bros making fun of UVA employing its own students.

Eta: Christ help us if BruceWayne pops in

[09042014]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Edit: also Duke v. Michigan at equal $$ is an extremely common scenario.

TLS not circle jerking about rankings is a relatively new phenomenon. Back when I started surfing TLS in very late 2008, ALL that mattered was USNEWS ranking. The common wisdom was go to the best school you could, and best was defined as USNEWS ranking. People (pretty correctly) thought T14 = big law no matter what. People weren't sitting around looking at NLJ250 data with bated breathe. They were looking at USNEWS.

Then people realized that big law was crashing and burning way later than they should have. Even then, people thought the Tiers they have worried so fuck would be clearly reflected in job prospects. Hey, if 0Ls were turning down 45k at Cornell to go to Michgian, that must means firms would prefer Michigan too right? WRONG. It took a while a to learn.

It really wasn't until late 2009 - 2010 did employment data even begin to be the big topic on school choice.

Michigans cache is falling because of it's TTT job placement stats the past few years. But before ITE they were definitely an admissions peer of MVP.

[suralin]

HYS > MVP > DNCG is a pretty good way to map which schools are fighting over which candidates.

Pretty sure nobody is deciding between D/N and G or M/V and P. At least nobody with a brain.

Hey dude, that's a pretty stupid thing to say.

Not really. I guess I could have clarified and said anybody concerned with getting a good job. All else equal, there's no good reason to pick G over D/N and no reason to pick M/V over P.

Honestly this whole thread needs to be taken out back and shot.

This is something I think we can all agree on.

Lol this is a pretty stupid thing to say as well, unless your "all else equal" and "no good reason" qualifiers are so strong as to make the assertion meaningless. All else is in fact never equal (scholarships, COA, location, ties, personal preference, family, significant other, what constitutes an apparently objective "good job," previous WE, etc.) and I'm sure there has been at least one person (with a brain) who's made such a decision for subjectively good reasons.

I say this as somebody who would pick Penn over M/V.