Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016 Forum

[curious66]

So after this weekend, I'm looking at Hamilton vs. HLS vs. YLS. I've talked to current/graduated students at all three schools, and I just end up feeling really enthusiastic about whichever school the person I'm talking to is at/graduated from (which isn't helpful at all in the end). My leanings change on an hourly basis, it seems. Columbia sends me a loooooot of letters in the mail, but I haven't had much contact with faculty aside from that.

My career goals would be either biglaw -> clerkship or clerkship -> biglaw (don't really care what order), and then either try to go in-house or position myself for a judgeship. I'm not expecting much need-based aid, but I'd be willing to take out loans in addition to whatever my parents are willing to contribute. (I'm submitting my financial aid forms next week, but I really do think my packages will be minimal at best.) My question is: given my career goals, at what amount, if any, is HLS or YLS not worth the debt? Thoughts?

Most folks would kill for your choices. Have you visited HLS or YLS? I would rule out HLS over YLS. So, YLS over Hamilton at Columbia. Yale is consistently #1 and the campus is fabulous however. New Haven is not anything to rave about. Columbia is not as beautiful but NYC is incredible. You will be fine at either place and one is essentially free. I would go visit and pick. Taking out loans for Yale is not the worst outcome you could have if you really love it.

I have personal geographic reasons for preferring Cambridge or NYC to New Haven, which are pretty strong unless something REALLY earth-shattering comes along. I've always wondered about the general lack of enthusiasm for HLS in these types of situations, as well. What is it about YLS that HLS lacks which makes it more of a contender against the Hamilton?

It is just that YLS is much smaller and consistent at the number 1 spot. HLS sometimes gets flack for the large class size. Again, these are lucky/blessed people problems .

[UtilityMonster]

I was planning to just go to whichever school my wife got admitted to for her phd, but she has been admitted to both Chicago and Harvard...

Now I have to actually attempt to solve this.

[vzapana]

I was planning to just go to whichever school my wife got admitted to for her phd, but she has been admitted to both Chicago and Harvard...

Now I have to actually attempt to solve this.

not sure if this is a big factor for you guys, but isn't it unclear whether illinois will legalize same-sex marriage?

[jd5]

What is it about YLS that HLS lacks which makes it more of a contender against the Hamilton?

The biggest substantive difference between Y and H/S is the grading system. Y has *no grades whatsoever* first semester, and after that it's just H/P/LP -- none of the awards for best student in a given class that H/S both have. This does wonders for the atmosphere at the school; it's simply not competitive -- at least, not stressfully competitive -- in a way that I've heard H still can be.

The received wisdom that Y > H/S has also become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People that get into all three, or Y and one of the others, overwhelmingly prefer Y, and law students assume (in some instances incorrectly, of course) that if you're at H/S (or anywhere else), it means you didn't get into Y.

And the fact, or at least the perception, that Y >>>> H/S makes it harder for people to turn down Y than H/S, even for a full ride at Columbia.

Y also has much better financial aid than H.

[UtilityMonster]

There was one talk at HLS ASW titled "Harvard Law School: A Financially Sound Decision." It pretty persuasively made the case that HLS is worth taking on debt, even substantial debt, to attend.

Basically:

LIPP will pay off your debt if you are doing PI work
If you are doing big law, you will have better opportunities with Harvard that, if utilized, will net you more money long term
Even if you don't benefit job wise from the Harvard degree, long-term the NPV difference is fairly small relative to your total life earnings

This doesn't take into account subjective factors either, such as the fact that many consider Harvard to be the more enjoyable experience. Everyone seemed incredibly relaxed, and people were talking about how a school like WUSTL is more stressful and competitive than Harvard.

In short, I think a lot of people on this board are too debt averse.

[justinp]

What is it about YLS that HLS lacks which makes it more of a contender against the Hamilton?

The biggest substantive difference between Y and H/S is the grading system. Y has *no grades whatsoever* first semester, and after that it's just H/P/LP -- none of the awards for best student in a given class that H/S both have. This does wonders for the atmosphere at the school; it's simply not competitive -- at least, not stressfully competitive -- in a way that I've heard H still can be.

Battle of the anecdata for sure, but at least in my HLS section people absolutely aren't competitive over grades. I've literally never had someone act uncomfortable about helping me out, and haven't thought twice before helping other people out. It's not like everyone is gunning for DS's. And the H/P split is (to my knowledge) pretty much the same between the two schools, so I don't know why YLS would be so much more floaty and easy.

Maybe my section is just unusually laid back/friendly or something, but I doubt it.

[jd5]

Battle of the anecdata for sure, but at least in my HLS section people absolutely aren't competitive over grades. I've literally never had someone act uncomfortable about helping me out, and haven't thought twice before helping other people out. It's not like everyone is gunning for DS's. And the H/P split is (to my knowledge) pretty much the same between the two schools, so I don't know why YLS would be so much more floaty and easy.

Maybe my section is just unusually laid back/friendly or something, but I doubt it.

It's probably more accurate to say there's a stress gap, not a competitiveness gap, between Y and S/H, and the only time it's substantial is during the first semester of 1L. Even if students at H aren't competitive with one another, there's a certain amount of stress that comes with a term where you are being graded (even on a lenient scale like HP/P/LP). That stress is completely absent at Y first semester. People don't even stress much during finals. It's pass/fail, and it's almost literally impossible to fail--you would have to try to do so, basically.

That first semester aside, though, it's probably splitting hairs to say Y is less competitive/stressful than S or H. All three of them are *significantly* less competitive and stressful than every other law school, though, and the grading systems are largely responsible for that.

[UtilityMonster]

Sitting in ruby talk right now. Interesting, nice people, etc.

[eph]

If you are positive (which is kind of impossible) that you can finish in the top 15% take the money. If not then HSY where the middle 50% gets you so much more. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[UtilityMonster]

If you are positive (which is kind of impossible) that you can finish in the top 15% take the money. If not then HSY where the middle 50% gets you so much more. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Yeah pretty much. Are you at Chicago at the moment?

[Emma.]

If you are positive (which is kind of impossible) that you can finish in the top 15% take the money. If not then HSY where the middle 50% gets you so much more. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Lol at anyone who thinks median at H with $150K+ in debt is a better situation than median and debt free at UChicago.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I actually agree with the complete opposite of what you said. I could see the top 15% of H getting slightly different opportunities than Chicago. Median at both places will have nearly identical employment outcomes, IMO.

[Emma.]

I actually agree with the complete opposite of what you said. I could see the top 15% of H getting slightly different opportunities than Chicago. Median at both places will have nearly identical employment outcomes, IMO.

Exactly this.

[Doorkeeper]

I actually agree with the complete opposite of what you said. I could see the top 15% of H getting slightly different opportunities than Chicago. Median at both places will have nearly identical employment outcomes, IMO.

Exactly this.

I don't think I agree with this blanket assertion.

For the most part, I do believe outcomes are virtually identical for those pursuing biglaw. However, I do know that a few firms do dig deeper into HY or HYS than other schools.

But I've seen how being close with specific professors at H can really alter once employment situation, even if one is not at the top of the class (No one really goes around discussing grades in relation to a "median" at H, but friends do discuss the rough number of Hs one received).

This all being said, I don't think that gamble is really worth nearly $300k if the choice is between H with no aid and Hamilton/Rubenstein.

[eph]

The 300k is not the real comparision. The Hamilton and Rudy are worth 170kish plus accrued I think? Room and board and the rest have to be paid at all three.

[Emma.]

The 300k is not the real comparision. The Hamilton and Rudy are worth 170kish plus accrued I think? Room and board and the rest have to be paid at all three.

Rubenstein is full tuition plus $10k/yr stipend. Assuming annual tuition increases, the scholarship is easily worth $200K. Factor in interest and $300K is probably pretty conservative.

[sinfiery]

Rubenstein is full tuition plus $10k/yr stipend. Assuming annual tuition increases, the scholarship is easily worth $200K. Factor in interest and $300K is probably pretty conservative.

tuition is 50k + 10k = 60k (180k shows @ LSN so this seems accurate) = 222k after interest and tuition/COL increases (3.5%)

[Elston Gunn]

What is it about YLS that HLS lacks which makes it more of a contender against the Hamilton?

The biggest substantive difference between Y and H/S is the grading system. Y has *no grades whatsoever* first semester, and after that it's just H/P/LP -- none of the awards for best student in a given class that H/S both have. This does wonders for the atmosphere at the school; it's simply not competitive -- at least, not stressfully competitive -- in a way that I've heard H still can be.

The received wisdom that Y > H/S has also become a self-fulfilling prophecy. People that get into all three, or Y and one of the others, overwhelmingly prefer Y, and law students assume (in some instances incorrectly, of course) that if you're at H/S (or anywhere else), it means you didn't get into Y.

And the fact, or at least the perception, that Y >>>> H/S makes it harder for people to turn down Y than H/S, even for a full ride at Columbia.

Y also has much better financial aid than H.

This is only kind of the reason. The biggest differences between Y and H is twice the clerkship opportunities per capita, probably at least that in academia opportunities, and in general much better access (at least perceived) to really hard to get jobs without needing to get out of this world grades. The last one is admittedly hard to calculate, however.

[Elston Gunn]

I actually agree with the complete opposite of what you said. I could see the top 15% of H getting slightly different opportunities than Chicago. Median at both places will have nearly identical employment outcomes, IMO.

Exactly this.

I mostly agree, but it depends what you mean. A "median" outcome for a biglaw seeking Y and I imagine HS person is a NY V10/DC Biglaw or the top firm in a smaller market. You can't tell me that's the median outcome for Chi biglaw people. That said, I'm not arguing that the difference between the two results is worth $180-220K.

[Emma.]

I actually agree with the complete opposite of what you said. I could see the top 15% of H getting slightly different opportunities than Chicago. Median at both places will have nearly identical employment outcomes, IMO.

Exactly this.

I mostly agree, but it depends what you mean. A "median" outcome for a biglaw seeking Y and I imagine HS person is a NY V10/DC Biglaw or the top firm in a smaller market. You can't tell me that's the median outcome for Chi biglaw people. That said, I'm not arguing that the difference between the two results is worth $180-220K.

I'd be curious to know how many kids at HLS are landing V10 biglaw. It is certainly possible (though likely not typical) for median students at Chicago, but I also doubt it is the standard outcome for median at H.

[az21833]

median anywhere is not getting v10 unless you have finance WE

[Elston Gunn]

median anywhere is not getting v10 unless you have finance WE

Can't speak for H, but at Y at least half and probably quite a bit more of those going to firms are going to NYC V15*, big DC firms, Quinn/Boies, top 3 firms in places like HOU/LA/CHI/BOS, etc., or top firms in more random places (e.g. Freshfields in London, Dechert in Philly etc.). Most of those not going to V10 firms are going to firms that are actually harder to get, or are at least in the same ballpark.

In fact, I just looked and it's literally like 10 or fewer out of 151 who accepted offers at FIP that don't fit one of those descriptions. And those 10 are basically all going to V50 NYC firms.

*I know this is douchey, but Debevoise and Paul Weiss each get 5 or so each.

Okay, counted it up. 46/151 acceptances (~165 participants) at V10 firms at a school where most people gun for DC and NY is a fallback. Median (whatever that means) at Yale is not only capable of getting a V10 but is pretty much a lock.

[Emma.]

median anywhere is not getting v10 unless you have finance WE

Can't speak for H, but at Y at least half and probably quite a bit more of those going to firms are going to NYC V15*, big DC firms, Quinn/Boies, top 3 firms in places like HOU/LA/CHI/BOS, etc., or top firms in more random places (e.g. Freshfields in London, Dechert in Philly etc.). Most of those not going to V10 firms are going to firms that are actually harder to get, or are at least in the same ballpark.

In fact, I just looked and it's literally like 10 or fewer out of 151 who accepted offers at FIP that don't fit one of those descriptions. And those 10 are basically all going to V50 NYC firms.

*I know this is douchey, but Debevoise and Paul Weiss each get 5 or so each.

Okay, counted it up. 46/151 acceptances (~165 participants) at V10 firms at a school where most people gun for DC and NY is a fallback. Median (whatever that means) at Yale is not only capable of getting a V10 but is pretty much a lock.

Y is a different beast.

[2012applicant2013]

The deadline for the Ruby is tomorrow! I had a great time at Chicago ASW but can't decide if I want to give up the HLS dream.

Anybody else still deciding?

[Spritzpiggy]

Yep. Its about a100k difference and I don't know if it's worth it. I loved the professors at Chicago but I liked the student body and atmosphere at Harvard more. Is it seriously worth a hundred thousand dollars though?!