Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[JCougar]

The feasibility study really is just page after page of comedy gold. At least thank the Dean for that.

I really want to know who got paid to write those 136 pages, and how much they made.

No one in this industry, it seems, has a functional bullshit filter.

[sunynp]

Just read a comment on campos' blog. There are 30 law schools within 200 miles of this proposed school.

[BoGuaGua]

anyone actually read the study? it was tl;dr for me, so what was wrong with it exactly?

[finnandjake2]

The feasibility study really is just page after page of comedy gold. At least thank the Dean for that.

+1

[bjsesq]

“Soon our doors will open and lives will be changed,” said Peter C. Alexander, dean of Indiana Tech Law School.

--ImageRemoved--

Now who do we bury?

[HarlandBassett]

The feasibility study really is just page after page of comedy gold. At least thank the Dean for that.

I really want to know who got paid to write those 136 pages, and how much they made.

No one in this industry, it seems, has a functional bullshit filter.

they are on page 6 of the PDF.

[timbs4339]

anyone actually read the study? it was tl;dr for me, so what was wrong with it exactly?

Among other things, using a bevy of irrelevant statistics to try and predict macro demand for lawyers (lawyers per capita, lawyer/GDP, while ignoring the most obvious and relevant statistic: there are 45,000 law graduates and only 25,000 entry level jobs per year. The report engages in some pretty wild contortions without bringing up this figure. It also focuses too much on this big picture to the exclusion of the real question: what are job opportunities in Indiana going to look at for graduates of a TTT or, at best, a TT.

Really basic logic flaws. For example, the report justifies opening the law school because Indiana has a very few lawyers per capita, without failing to consider that this may be because there is less demand for legal work in Indiana than in, say, New York or DC. Instead it states that lawyers are a "resource for social and economic development" which is confusing correlation and causation. This is basic LSAT stuff.

Concluding that because there are applicants who don't make it into IU-B and IU-I that there should be an additional law school to keep up with demand, with no consideration to whether the Indiana legal market can absorb those graduates.

I could go on and on but I'm tired. The whole thing just seems to build from the conclusion.

[sunynp]

anyone actually read the study? it was tl;dr for me, so what was wrong with it exactly?

Among other things, using a bevy of irrelevant statistics to try and predict macro demand for lawyers (lawyers per capita, lawyer/GDP, while ignoring the most obvious and relevant statistic: there are 45,000 law graduates and only 25,000 entry level jobs per year. The report engages in some pretty wild contortions without bringing up this figure. It also focuses too much on this big picture to the exclusion of the real question: what are job opportunities in Indiana going to look at for graduates of a TTT or, at best, a TT.

Really basic logic flaws. For example, the report justifies opening the law school because Indiana has a very few lawyers per capita, without failing to consider that this may be because there is less demand for legal work in Indiana than in, say, New York or DC. Instead it states that lawyers are a "resource for social and economic development" which is confusing correlation and causation. This is basic LSAT stuff.

Concluding that because there are applicants who don't make it into IU-B and IU-I that there should be an additional law school to keep up with demand, with no consideration to whether the Indiana legal market can absorb those graduates.

I could go on and on but I'm tired. The whole thing just seems to build from the conclusion.

They also worry about the "brain drain" ? from Indiana because of all the people who don't go to school in Indiana and also there are people who even give up their dream of going to law school. LOL (like the students who leave for the T14 are going to stay for this unaccredited TTT school.) They are aiming to at least not be the worst school in Indiana. I'm sure that will convince a lot of people to stay!

At no point that I saw did they consider the employment outcomes for their potential students. If the Dean weren't so afraid of getting his feelings hurt by all the mean girls here, he could answer that question. I may email him this weekend to ask about that.


For anyone considering this unaccedited school which can guarantee you nothing, here is a list of the 30 other schools within a 200 mile radius of Fort Wayne. These schools run the gamut so there is no doubt you could get into one of them that the ABA has actually accredited. Not that I am saying this is a good plan, just that of all these choices, the unaccredited school is the worst. Don't go there.

Notre Dame, Valparaiso, IU - Indianapolis, IU - Bloomintgton, University of Illinois, John Marshall, Depaul, Loyola, Chicago-KenTT, University of Chicago, Northwestern, Marquette, University of Louisville, Northern Kentucky, University of Cincinnati, Dayton, Toledo, Akron, Ohio State, Ohio Northern, Capital, Case Western, Cleveland Marshall, Cooley's Michigan campuses, University of Michigan, Detroit-Mercy, Wayne State, and Michigan State.

[finnandjake2]

Look for logic flaws in that report if you want a break from actual LSAT studying.

[howell]

If Indiana is underserved with respect to lawyers, why are the Indiana law schools (and those in the surrounding areas) drastically cutting incoming 1L classes? These selfish schools should really stop trying to cut off the flow of vibrant young attorneys ready to take out six-figure debt in order to serve Indiana's non-paying clients.

[Samara]

I think my favorite part is how they say they are focusing on curriculum specializations, first year curriculum, increased ethics training, and pro bono service work. The report's appendix includes a study by the American Bar Foundation asking students what they thought was most helpful to their work. Only technology training was rated less helpful than the four above categories.

Hey, you know what would help these people who can't get a legal job? Emphasizing the elements of law school that are least helpful! It's like they didn't even read their own report.

[R86]

Did a few quick searches through this .pdf just for kicks.

Number of paragraphs containing the word unemployment: 1

Number of paragraphs containing the phrase need for lawyers: 15

[I.P. Daly]

I think my favorite part is how they say they are focusing on curriculum specializations, first year curriculum, increased ethics training, and pro bono service work. The report's appendix includes a study by the American Bar Foundation asking students what they thought was most helpful to their work. Only technology training was rated less helpful than the four above categories.

Hey, you know what would help these people who can't get a legal job? Emphasizing the elements of law school that are least helpful! It's like they didn't even read their own report.

Indiana law schools that cut enrollment for the Fall of 2012 incoming class:

Valapraiso: 25.2% reduction;
Indiana: 15.8% reduction;
Notre Dame: 2.7% reduction.

Source: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... nage-.html

Also note, the above mentioned schools have established and loyal alumni networks that are willing to hire students from their alma maters.

[R86]

I think my favorite part is how they say they are focusing on curriculum specializations, first year curriculum, increased ethics training, and pro bono service work. The report's appendix includes a study by the American Bar Foundation asking students what they thought was most helpful to their work. Only technology training was rated less helpful than the four above categories.

Hey, you know what would help these people who can't get a legal job? Emphasizing the elements of law school that are least helpful! It's like they didn't even read their own report.

Indiana law schools that cut enrollment for the Fall of 2012 incoming class:

Valapraiso: 25.2% reduction;
Indiana: 15.8% reduction;
Notre Dame: 2.7% reduction.

Source: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... nage-.html

Also note, the above mentioned schools have established and loyal alumni networks that are willing to hire students from their alma maters.

But the Indiana Tech Feasibility Committee had three Law Firm partners and one nonpartner attorney. Surely that counts for something!

[R86]

I think OP should change the title of the thread to "If you're considering Indiana Tech Law School, you need to read this" or something along those lines. It's already page two of the google results for Indiana Tech Law School (out of 14 million or so hits). If people keep it going, we might actually have a shot of bringing in ONE OR TWO prospective students willing to do an IOTA of research before wasting 3 years of their life and countless hundreds of thousands of dollars, forgone, spent, and perpetually out of reach.

[071816]

Relevant article.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

above article completely ignores that some lawyers die, retire, leave the field, etc. there are more attorneys than jobs, duh, but lets be realistic about this.

[071816]

There is no immediately evident way to suddenly add another 67% of total lawyer jobs to the market, causing an amazing glut of unemployed or underemployed lawyers in the market.

Creating new law school sure isn't the solution.

[danquayle]

You guuuuuuuuuuysssss... I don't know one single school that offers a Global Law and Leadership concentration. That's a real value add, and I'm sure all the employers who practice "Global Law" will be fighting for those students coming out of Indiana Tech.

[HarlandBassett]

lol. even the arch firm got in on the bullshit

Indiana Tech Law School incorporates real-world learning

By Sarah Janssen for The News-Sentinel
Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - 5:52 am

Driving downtown on Washington Boulevard, the last building on the left of Indiana Tech's campus is just beginning to take shape. The university has big plans for this three-story, 70,000-square-foot building, which will house the campus' new law school, set to open in fall 2013.

The building is ahead of schedule and will open sometime this summer. It will use several 21st-century classroom concepts, from the placement of electrical outlets in tables to foster movement for collaboration to interactive whiteboards in all classrooms.
The $16 million project, with another $2 million allotted to stock the law library, is the vision of local architectural firm SchenkelShultz. The firm also partnered with another in Detroit for the project.

Indiana Tech Law School Dean Peter Alexander said the local firm and the school have a long-standing relationship. But Alexander was unaware of this relationship when he helped choose the final design during the request-for-proposal process, he said. “We were impressed with their initiative to collaborate (with the Detroit firm),” he said of SchenkelShultz.

Opportunities for learning everywhere
Collaboration seems to be an ongoing theme for the project, particularly in the building's learning spaces. “The idea is to encourage learning everywhere, not just in classrooms or offices,” Alexander said. “Sometimes the best occasions of learning occur in conversations during passing in the hallways,” said SchenkelShultz architect Cory Miller.

Movable, soft furniture will replace desks and desk chairs in areas of the building available for a variety of uses, including gathering, socializing and studying for individuals or groups. Classrooms will be open to all students and faculty at any time through electronic key entry. Gone are the days of students being tethered to walls when their laptops require a power source. Outlets will be in the tables or desks, so students can easily move the furniture without losing proximity to an outlet. Projectors and interactive whiteboards will be in all classrooms, as well as large white, dry-erase boards spanning entire walls to provide large surfaces for writing. Furniture will also be movable to accommodate different learning and teaching styles.

“Professors and students will be able to reconfigure the rooms all day long,” Alexander said. “Learning spaces will be different in subtle ways, but make a big difference for us.”
Miller said the point was to allow a classroom to be set up like a City Council meeting or for small-group discussion, whatever the need is at the time.

He said the school's goal of preparing law students to function in the real world requires flexible spaces that could potentially resemble real-world situations. Students could spend time arguing with each other about the application of law one day, listen to a lecture by a professor another day and conduct research in the library on another.

The modernity of the setup could benefit the law school as it competes with others in the region. “Very few law schools and few university classrooms in general will be as flexible as ours will be,” he said.

An outdoor terrace where classes can be held during nice weather will continue the concept of learning everywhere, Alexander said. The area where faculty offices will be located will also have comfortable furniture and social gathering space, to encourage more informal interaction between faculty and students.

“We want to break down those barriers students have to talk to faculty,” Alexander said. “We wanted space that fosters that interaction.”

Modern elements in traditional spaces
Alexander said based on the renderings provided by SchenkelShultz, he has been impressed with the modernity of the building design and the natural light incorporated into the space. Windows will also allow those inside to get a sense of where they are.
“We want the space to be friendly. You won't need a map to get around. It's intentional that it's not complicated,” Alexander said.

The multi-floor, circular trial courtroom will be surrounded by glass and a reading room on the second floor with audio speakers, allowing students to hear the goings on without interrupting proceedings by coming in and out.

The law library will house a combination of traditional books and electronic materials. Miller said library shelves will have space for 70,000 volumes of law books, a requirement for accreditation purposes, but as the use of the written volumes goes away, the space can be opened up for other uses. Alexander said the purpose of a library space is one where students can learn and study rather than a place where they just check out books.

The law school's library will have an abundance of space for collaborative learning and small-group studying.

“I think that's the direction libraries are headed, but we still have to have books,” Alexander said.

[JCougar]

I can imagine what those "passing conversations" will be.

Indiana Tech Student 1: Did you find a summer job yet?
Indiana Tech Student 2: Hell no. I only got one interview and the guy asked me whether I enjoyed going to Indy-Bloomington. I said, "Sorry, you are mistaken, I go to Indy Tech." Then he said, "Oh, sorry, I misread your resume." Then he spent the rest of the interview telling me how much he loves golf.
Indiana Tech Student 1: I am so sorry I enrolled in this sewer of a law school.
Indiana Tech Student 2: I know. Thanks. This conversation has been a learning experience for me.

[R86]

I can imagine what those "passing conversations" will be.

Indiana Tech Student 1: Did you find a summer job yet?
Indiana Tech Student 2: Hell no. I only got one interview and the guy asked me whether I enjoyed going to Indy-Bloomington. I said, "Sorry, you are mistaken, I go to Indy Tech." Then he said, "Oh, sorry, I misread your resume." Then he spent the rest of the interview telling me how much he loves golf.
Indiana Tech Student 1: I am so sorry I enrolled in this sewer of a law school.
Indiana Tech Student 2: I know. Thanks. This conversation has been a learning experience for me.

Indiana Tech Student 1: I'M SO GLAD THE ARCHITECT HAD HALLWAY LEARNING EXPERIENCES IN MIND

[RodneyBoonfield]

--ImageRemoved--[/quote]

"That's the 9th one we've buried this month, Peter. You think depression from learning they will never pay off debt is causing them to do this? Maybe we should invest in a mental health counseling department."

Peter: "Sounds expensive"

[justonemoregame]

--ImageRemoved--

"Turns out the Feds secure loans for skeletons, too. Dig faster!"

[paradox]

WOW ..... If you question the influence of this website then take a moment to read the LINKED news article which appeared in yesterday's (October 9, 2012) edition of the Wall Street Journal entitled "A Fifth Law School in Indiana?" which cites this very thread and comments in this thread in its article regarding Indiana Tech Law School (a/k/a "Teck").

LINK
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/10/09/a-f ... n-indiana/