Detailed C/O 2011 Employment Data (T25) Forum

[ahnhub]

Added Virginia.

Now people can't call Michigan out anymore for being the only T10 that got shit on for the c/o 2011. Thanks UVA .

From what I can see Michigan OCS might have screwed up bidding in 2009, but they were pretty damn good at using their fellowships to help people find jobs.

[Bronck]

BTW, for c/o 2010 numbers, we can correct for estimates by using the new ABA data. All the biglaw data looks right, but here are what the Fed Clerkship numbers should be:

- Penn at 10%, not 13% (total = 69%)
- Virginia at 10% not 12% (total = 61%)
- Michigan at 7%, not 10% (total = 55%)
- GULC at 4%, not 7% (total = 47%)

It makes it a little more difficult to calculate % changes from 2010 to 2011, since some schools (e.g., Penn, Mich, and UVA) don't clearly lay out the numbers on their websites. I suppose you could use the same % changes that you established in the OP (-1/-1 for P = 67%; -14/+2 for M = 43%; -14/-2 for V = 45%), but that may not be very accurate.

[rayiner]

BTW, for c/o 2010 numbers, we can correct for estimates by using the new ABA data. All the biglaw data looks right, but here are what the Fed Clerkship numbers should be:

- Penn at 10%, not 13% (total = 69%)
- Virginia at 10% not 12% (total = 61%)
- Michigan at 7%, not 10% (total = 55%)
- GULC at 4%, not 7% (total = 47%)

It makes it a little more difficult to calculate % changes from 2010 to 2011, since some schools (e.g., Penn, Mich, and UVA) don't clearly lay out the numbers on their websites. I suppose you could use the same % changes that you established in the OP (-1/-1 for P = 67%; -14/+2 for M = 43%; -14/-2 for V = 45%), but that may not be very accurate.

Virginia and Michigan list C/O 2011 clerkship states under other tabs ("Employer Statistics" for Michigan, the "Clerkship" tab on the left for Virginia).

[envisciguy]

Does anyone know what to make of the UVA data? It says that 64 students (17.3%) received funding from the school. But then they say that 98.6% of the grads have full time long term employment. Aren't most school funded jobs technically short term? If so, how does this make sense?

They're counting the public service fellowships as full-time, long-term...

You can see this in the "Salaries" chart.
They had 377 graduates, and reported 369 employed, and 364 employed "full-time, long-term." 364 / 369 = 98.6%

However, in the salaries section, they list:
191 of 210 reporting in the private sector.
69 of 95 reporting in the public sector.

The note on that chart makes it clear that it does not include people on law school fellowships: "In 2011, the 64 graduates in the Law School's public service fellowship programs earned between $27,000 and $40,000, with a median of $27,000."

The math works out--210 private sector + 95 public sector + 64 fellowships = 369.

Ah, ok that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying. I guess 2011 must've been really bad for UVA.

Also, I agree with another poster, you should make the new rankings. Seems like you have a better grip on the info and what it all means than US News.

[Bronck]

BTW, for c/o 2010 numbers, we can correct for estimates by using the new ABA data. All the biglaw data looks right, but here are what the Fed Clerkship numbers should be:

- Penn at 10%, not 13% (total = 69%)
- Virginia at 10% not 12% (total = 61%)
- Michigan at 7%, not 10% (total = 55%)
- GULC at 4%, not 7% (total = 47%)

It makes it a little more difficult to calculate % changes from 2010 to 2011, since some schools (e.g., Penn, Mich, and UVA) don't clearly lay out the numbers on their websites. I suppose you could use the same % changes that you established in the OP (-1/-1 for P = 67%; -14/+2 for M = 43%; -14/-2 for V = 45%), but that may not be very accurate.

Virginia and Michigan list C/O 2011 clerkship states under other tabs ("Employer Statistics" for Michigan, the "Clerkship" tab on the left for Virginia).

Thanks for the heads up, hadn't noticed that. Looks like UVA and Mich both hit 10% in 2011 then.

ETA: noticed that you changed that in the OP. Curious as to why Penn doesn't delineate their clerkship numbers more clearly by class.

[rayiner]

BTW, for c/o 2010 numbers, we can correct for estimates by using the new ABA data. All the biglaw data looks right, but here are what the Fed Clerkship numbers should be:

- Penn at 10%, not 13% (total = 69%)
- Virginia at 10% not 12% (total = 61%)
- Michigan at 7%, not 10% (total = 55%)
- GULC at 4%, not 7% (total = 47%)

It makes it a little more difficult to calculate % changes from 2010 to 2011, since some schools (e.g., Penn, Mich, and UVA) don't clearly lay out the numbers on their websites. I suppose you could use the same % changes that you established in the OP (-1/-1 for P = 67%; -14/+2 for M = 43%; -14/-2 for V = 45%), but that may not be very accurate.

Virginia and Michigan list C/O 2011 clerkship states under other tabs ("Employer Statistics" for Michigan, the "Clerkship" tab on the left for Virginia).

Thanks for the heads up, hadn't noticed that. Looks like UVA and Mich both hit 10% in 2011 then.

ETA: noticed that you changed that in the OP. Curious as to why Penn doesn't delineate their clerkship numbers more clearly by class.

It's also a bit unclear what the dates on the clerkship table represent. Are those when the clerkship offer was secured or what?

[ahnhub]

Southern California: http://lawweb.usc.edu/careers/statistics/

[rayiner]

Southern California: http://lawweb.usc.edu/careers/statistics/

Added USC. The top-end seems to have weathered the recession pretty well (no change in big law + clerkship), but the bottom just fell out: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181723

[Twit]

Tagged. Thanks, rayiner.

[ahnhub]

Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... cs2011.htm

I couldn't figure out which clerkships were federal.

[Mr. Somebody]

Georgetown: http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... cs2011.htm

I couldn't figure out which clerkships were federal.

Wow. Only 71% of the class confirmed to have full-time legal positions (including JD preferred). 65 people getting paid by the law school, combined with the 53 who are not employed, adds up to 118 graduates with poor outcomes, or 18% of the class. I know this was the bottom, but still chilling info

[whitman]

Anyone have info on Duke?

[Tarheel1234]

GULC reported 74 people in JD-preferred full-time, short-term positions. What job would be an example of this?

[ahnhub]

GULC reported 74 people in JD-preferred full-time, short-term positions. What job would be an example of this?

I think the law-school funded jobs are probably concentrated in that category. It can encompass a lot, I imagine. In Georgetown's case, maybe a lot of it is people working at government agencies or courts as assistants/aides/office drones/clerks. I doubt most of those can lead to full-time employment with the government considering the budget crisis, so the important thing is whether they are getting valuable experience that can boost their resume.

[ahnhub]

Anyone have info on Duke?

They'll probably release it in the next couple of weeks. But here's what someone posted about Duke's 2010 OCI :

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=156483


If that's accurate, it's saying that 65% of Duke's entire class accepted an offer at an NALP firm at 2010 OCI (c/o 2012). That is comparable to Columbia, and a slight improvement over Columbia's OCI in 2009 (which is reflected in Columbia's c/o 2011 statistics).

[iphone7]

Yeah, I'd really like Duke's new info soon. The stats for the C/O 2010 are making me lean there over Georgetown even if in entails more debt.

[ahnhub]

An interesting piece of info: http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/co ... tml#source

So apparently of the 38 people Columbia lists as having law-school funded fellowships in c/o 2011, 38 were still on those fellowships at the 9-month mark. As a percentage of class this is actually towards the lower end of the T-14 (of the released stats, only Cornell and Virginia have a higher %).

(I can't really vouch for the accuracy/non-accuracy of that blog, but don't see a reason someone would make something like that up)

So despite having pretty incredible Biglaw+clerkship numbers, Columbia wasn't immune to the awful crash either. It's kind of remarkable, the stark differences in c/o 2011--some schools just absolutely got hammered Biglaw-wise, but somehow did a great job finding their students legal jobs (Michigan), others seem to have had very little success in turning law-school funded jobs into permanent employment. I suppose it may also reflect the degree to which students were willing to take jobs they would have found not as desirable when deciding to go into law school.

[rayiner]

An interesting piece of info: http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/co ... tml#source

So apparently of the 38 people Columbia lists as having law-school funded fellowships in c/o 2011, 38 were still on those fellowships at the 9-month mark. As a percentage of class this is actually towards the lower end of the T-14 (of the released stats, only Cornell and Virginia have a higher %).

(I can't really vouch for the accuracy/non-accuracy of that blog, but don't see a reason someone would make something like that up)

So despite having pretty incredible Biglaw+clerkship numbers, Columbia wasn't immune to the awful crash either. It's kind of remarkable, the stark differences in c/o 2011--some schools just absolutely got hammered Biglaw-wise, but somehow did a great job finding their students legal jobs (Michigan), others seem to have had very little success in turning law-school funded jobs into permanent employment. I suppose it may also reflect the degree to which students were willing to take jobs they would have found not as desirable when deciding to go into law school.

Interesting. Sneaky bastards, they don't list this on their employment stats site: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... rospective

[ahnhub]

An interesting piece of info: http://lsatblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/co ... tml#source

So apparently of the 38 people Columbia lists as having law-school funded fellowships in c/o 2011, 38 were still on those fellowships at the 9-month mark. As a percentage of class this is actually towards the lower end of the T-14 (of the released stats, only Cornell and Virginia have a higher %).

(I can't really vouch for the accuracy/non-accuracy of that blog, but don't see a reason someone would make something like that up)

So despite having pretty incredible Biglaw+clerkship numbers, Columbia wasn't immune to the awful crash either. It's kind of remarkable, the stark differences in c/o 2011--some schools just absolutely got hammered Biglaw-wise, but somehow did a great job finding their students legal jobs (Michigan), others seem to have had very little success in turning law-school funded jobs into permanent employment. I suppose it may also reflect the degree to which students were willing to take jobs they would have found not as desirable when deciding to go into law school.

Interesting. Sneaky bastards, they don't list this on their employment stats site: http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/car ... rospective

Haha--well, in the Comments section of the blog some Anonymous CLS 2011 grad claims this can't be right, 'cuz they know five people off the top of their head who got full-time jobs...honestly, I don't know. I'd be curious to find out, though.

[Kurst]

Sneaky bastards, they don't list this on their employment stats site

Columbia discloses the info, it's just buried in a footnote and wall of text.

[whitman]

Anyone have the Duke, NYU, and Chicago numbers yet?

[KevinP]

Anyone have the Duke, NYU, and Chicago numbers yet?

+1. I wonder why NYU/Chi are taking their time in releasing the C/O 2011 employment stats.

[whitman]

Still nothing?

[skers]

Still nothing?

Duke's out http://www.law.duke.edu/career/employmentdata

Eta: and U of C

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective/employmentdata

[Bronck]

Wow Chicago got destroyed.

.576 (firms in general) * .777 (firms size 101+) = .448 + .094 (fed clerkships) = 54.2%

That's a drop of 15.2% in biglaw and 2.6% in clerkships