M vs V vs P for corporate law Forum

[SuichiKurama]

As someone who has the data from Michigan and Penn Career services, there is actually a very very noticeable difference between Penn and Michigan with regards to NYC biglaw. Despite having a lower median, one seems to need higher grades at Michigan than at Penn to get the same firms in NYC.

Anecdotally, this also seems to be true with UVA (after having some PMs with a bigtime UVA poster on this site).

I wouldn't have guessed it prior to law school, but if you want NYC biglaw, there does seem to be a noticeable difference between P and MV.

I've seen Michigan and UVA's too, and like I said if Penn has a "very very noticeable" difference in how far NYC firms are going into Penn's class I stand by the comment that it needs to be changed to CCP. If what you say is true then that means that NYC firms are treating Penn like it's Columbia or something if the difference is "very very noticeable"--- because their treating Michigan and UVA grads pretty well. Further someone just said that Penn doesn't release this so that makes me more suspicious.

uhh Penn has a huge pdf file with grade bands. They definitely release this info to rising 2Ls.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Clearly you have issues with reading comprehension.

[rayiner]

As someone who has the data from Michigan and Penn Career services, there is actually a very very noticeable difference between Penn and Michigan with regards to NYC biglaw. Despite having a lower median, one seems to need higher grades at Michigan than at Penn to get the same firms in NYC.

Anecdotally, this also seems to be true with UVA (after having some PMs with a bigtime UVA poster on this site).

I wouldn't have guessed it prior to law school, but if you want NYC biglaw, there does seem to be a noticeable difference between P and MV.

I haven't seen Penn's data directly, but I've seen point samples of it for V10-ish firms, and it does seem to be about halfway between CCN and MV for NYC. I'd say for NYC, CCN > P > MV = DN

[270910]

As someone who has the data from Michigan and Penn Career services, there is actually a very very noticeable difference between Penn and Michigan with regards to NYC biglaw. Despite having a lower median, one seems to need higher grades at Michigan than at Penn to get the same firms in NYC.

Anecdotally, this also seems to be true with UVA (after having some PMs with a bigtime UVA poster on this site).

I wouldn't have guessed it prior to law school, but if you want NYC biglaw, there does seem to be a noticeable difference between P and MV.

I haven't seen Penn's data directly, but I've seen point samples of it for V10-ish firms, and it does seem to be about halfway between CCN and MV for NYC. I'd say for NYC, CCN > P > MV = DN

With the caveat that it will always be very idiosyncratic from firm to firm even within a market and specialty (see: debevoise telling NU to sod off), this would not surprise me.

[SuichiKurama]

As someone who has the data from Michigan and Penn Career services, there is actually a very very noticeable difference between Penn and Michigan with regards to NYC biglaw. Despite having a lower median, one seems to need higher grades at Michigan than at Penn to get the same firms in NYC.

Anecdotally, this also seems to be true with UVA (after having some PMs with a bigtime UVA poster on this site).

I wouldn't have guessed it prior to law school, but if you want NYC biglaw, there does seem to be a noticeable difference between P and MV.

I haven't seen Penn's data directly, but I've seen point samples of it for V10-ish firms, and it does seem to be about halfway between CCN and MV for NYC. I'd say for NYC, CCN > P > MV = DN

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but with what I've seen for Michigan and UVA in NYC, if Penn is substantially outdoing them then really either Penn is placing like Columbia and NYU in NYC or it's closer to UVA and Michigan than what you guys are making it out to be because NYC firms are treating Michigan and UVA pretty well. So are Penn's charts showing something like a median of below the top 10-20 percent for Kirkland, Cleary, and Debevoise for example?

[RVP11]

Just for sake of disclosure, I was the Anon who said to Kurama that there is a noticeable difference between Penn and UVA/UM for NYC BigLaw. I've seen numbers from all three schools thanks to other TLS users. For at least one unnamed moderately selective V20 firm, it seemed like you probably had to be within the top 20% at UVA/UM while top 25% or even slightly lower at Penn would suffice for a callback. It's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable and it's not just one firm.

Note that this conclusion goes against my own interests because I don't attend Penn.

[SuichiKurama]

Just for sake of disclosure, I was the Anon who said to Kurama that there is a noticeable difference between Penn and UVA/UM for NYC BigLaw. I've seen numbers from all three schools thanks to other TLS users. For at least one unnamed moderately selective V20 firm, it seemed like you probably had to be within the top 20% at UVA/UM while top 25% or even slightly lower at Penn would suffice for a callback. It's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable and it's not just one firm.

Note that this conclusion goes against my own interests because I don't attend Penn.

This is what I thought it was; I guess I just don't see that as substantial the way some are saying (that's what I would have guessed, I assume Michigan has the same advantage in Chicago for example).Things are in the eye of the beholder.

[RVP11]

Just for sake of disclosure, I was the Anon who said to Kurama that there is a noticeable difference between Penn and UVA/UM for NYC BigLaw. I've seen numbers from all three schools thanks to other TLS users. For at least one unnamed moderately selective V20 firm, it seemed like you probably had to be within the top 20% at UVA/UM while top 25% or even slightly lower at Penn would suffice for a callback. It's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable and it's not just one firm.

Note that this conclusion goes against my own interests because I don't attend Penn.

This is what I thought it was; I guess I just don't see that as substantial the way some are saying (that's what I would have guessed, I assume Michigan has the same advantage in Chicago for example).Things are in the eye of the beholder.

It's substantial if you're smack on the top 25% mark at UVA/UM and you know you'd probably have a much better shot at several NYC firms if you were at Penn.

[rayiner]

As someone who has the data from Michigan and Penn Career services, there is actually a very very noticeable difference between Penn and Michigan with regards to NYC biglaw. Despite having a lower median, one seems to need higher grades at Michigan than at Penn to get the same firms in NYC.

Anecdotally, this also seems to be true with UVA (after having some PMs with a bigtime UVA poster on this site).

I wouldn't have guessed it prior to law school, but if you want NYC biglaw, there does seem to be a noticeable difference between P and MV.

I haven't seen Penn's data directly, but I've seen point samples of it for V10-ish firms, and it does seem to be about halfway between CCN and MV for NYC. I'd say for NYC, CCN > P > MV = DN

With the caveat that it will always be very idiosyncratic from firm to firm even within a market and specialty (see: debevoise telling NU to sod off), this would not surprise me.

Indeed I think it's just an outgrowth of this idiosyncracy. There just happen to be a number of V25s that have an odd affinity for Penn where there is a tangible boost for the school. A lot of it could simply be self-reinforcing. Tons of Penn grads go to the same NYC firms year after year, Penn grads end up on hiring committies, etc.

[quakeroats]

Reedie look back at those top firms in DC (Covington, Arnold Porter, Williams Connolly), I don't see how you are coming up with a 33 percent advantage for Duke when you are searching through their profiles.

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[270910]

Reedie look back at those top firms in DC (Covington, Arnold Porter, Williams Connolly), I don't see how you are coming up with a 33 percent advantage for Duke when you are searching through their profiles.

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Ah. So the problem is that Quaker Oats doesn't know what the top dc law firms are.

You actually attempted to calculate Washington, DC law firm placement by counting the total number of attroenys in the following DC Offices:

WLRK, Cravath, Skadden, S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Covington, Kirkland, W&C, DP(debevoise?), and Weil.

Quaker, you seem motivated and interested, and so I really don't want to be ugly or over react. But that.... oh my goodness. I can't even... hoo. Deep breaths. OK.

A bunch of the firms you tried to count Washington, DC branches of don't have any associates in Washington, DC. Many others have offices that basically don't hire anybody that are only 20-40 attorneys in size (Deb, STB, etc). Of the others, they aren't actually the biggest names in DC. Skadden DC is a great office, but it is NOT a major DC player the way many other firms are.

Here is a much better list of the 'top' law firms in Washington, DC:

William & Connolly
Covington & Burling
Arnold & Porter
WilmerHale
Hogan & Hartson

The vault rankings are extremely NYC centric, and law firms frequently have one headquarters and then small satellite offices. They are not fungible.

The vault rankings are determined by a survey of associates based on 'prestige'. Because there are so many firms in NYC, and so many associates at those firms, the results are disproportionately skewed towards large transactional NYC practices.

[pelmen74]

Reedie look back at those top firms in DC (Covington, Arnold Porter, Williams Connolly), I don't see how you are coming up with a 33 percent advantage for Duke when you are searching through their profiles.

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Ah. So the problem is that Quaker Oats doesn't know what the top DC law firms are.

You actually attempted to calculate Washington, DC law firm placement by counting the total number of attroenys in the following DC Offices:

WLRK, Cravath, Skadden, S&C, Davis Polk, Simpson Thacher, Cleary, Paul Weiss, Covington, Kirkland, W&C, DP(debevoise?), and Weil.

Quaker, you seem motivated and interested, and so I really don't want to be ugly or over react. But that.... oh my goodness. I can't even... hoo. Deep breaths. OK.

A bunch of the firms you tried to count Washington, DC branches of don't have any associates in Washington, DC. Many others have offices that basically don't hire anybody that are only 20-40 attorneys in size (Deb, STB, etc). Of the others, they aren't actually the biggest names in DC. Skadden DC is a great office, but it is NOT a major DC player the way many other firms are.

Here is a much better list of the 'top' law firms in Washington, DC:

William & Connolly
Covington & Burling
Arnold & Porter
WilmerHale
Hogan & Hartson

The vault rankings are extremely NYC centric, and law firms frequently have one headquarters and then small satellite offices. They are not fungible.

The vault rankings are determined by a survey of associates based on 'prestige'. Because there are so many firms in NYC, and so many associates at those firms, the results are disproportionately skewed towards large transactional NYC practices.

This data shows that Duke students place better than UVA at these particular firms. Be a doll and run this regression on William & Connolly etc. and then tell me that the UVA places in DC better than Duke does.

[270910]

Be a doll and run this regression on William & Connolly etc. and then tell me that the UVA places in DC better than Duke does.

[rayiner]

Reedie look back at those top firms in DC (Covington, Arnold Porter, Williams Connolly), I don't see how you are coming up with a 33 percent advantage for Duke when you are searching through their profiles.

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This is soul-stompingly hilarious.

In the same way as watching a bus full of mexican children fall of a cliff is hilarious.

[quakeroats]

Be a doll and run this regression on William & Connolly etc. and then tell me that the UVA places in DC better than Duke does.

Williams & Connolly is on there. It's the WC.

[pelmen74]

Be a doll and run this regression on William & Connolly etc. and then tell me that the UVA places in DC better than Duke does.

Williams & Connolly is on there. It's the WC.

right.
And my point still stands regarding the other firms.

[270910]

*stands around, looking at everyone kind of crazily, left eye violently twitching*

[Reedie]

Be a doll and run this regression on William & Connolly etc. and then tell me that the UVA places in DC better than Duke does.

Williams & Connolly is on there. It's the WC.

Probably part of why Duke does so well. Of the firms people have been listing off and then demanding numbers for, looks like W&C is the most slanted in Duke's favor. Covington is 9 Duke, 23 UVA. That's slightly in Duke's favor, but only slightly.

{insert post here wondering why 9 > 23, and then failing to provide any alternate methodology to try to account for self-selection and class size]


On a more productive note, I've been trying to think about factors that would hurt a school's numbers in firm placement as calculated this way if we had a more complete list. Aside from having more PI interested students, one of the ones I've thought of that I haven't seen before is students having a "market X or bust" attitude. I wonder if some schools attract more such students. I'd expect Berkeley might.

[270910]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

[quakeroats]

Here is a much better list of the 'top' law firms in Washington, DC:

William & Connolly
Covington & Burling
Arnold & Porter
WilmerHale
Hogan & Hartson

--ImageRemoved--

[Reedie]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

Uhmmm, WTF, if that's true then their own website has changed since this morning when it was 20 Duke and 27 UVA.

[quakeroats]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

Perhaps I'm not counting attorneys.

[270910]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

Uhmmm, WTF, if that's true then their own website has changed since this morning when it was 20 Duke and 27 UVA.

I was looking at an old list; 2 Duke attorneys probably left recently.

[270910]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

Perhaps I'm not counting attorneys.

Are you counting paralegals? Kittens? Socks with the law school brand on them?

[quakeroats]

Wait, what the fuck. It turns out that Quaker can't even count.

W&C has 27 attorneys from UVA and 22 from duke.

Perhaps I'm not counting attorneys.

Are you counting paralegals? Kittens? Socks with the law school brand on them?

I'm counting associates.

[270910]

OK, because my brain is literally bleeding, I'm just going to mother fucking do this my self.

Firm: Virginia: attorneys Duke: attorneys
Williams & Connolly: V:27 D: 20
Covington & Burling: V: 25 D: 9
Arnold & Porter: V:13 D: 5
WilmerHale: V: 15 D: 7
hogan lovells: V: 50 D: 20

I'm not going to add them up, I'm not going to divide them by any factors. I'm just going to post them. UVA has about 1.75x the number of law students as Duke, that much is true.

There. I'm going to let my brain bleed in other threads now.