Penn Students Taking Questions Forum

[PennBull]

Very few 1Ls get big firm summer jobs unless they're a diversity candidate or have an in with a local firm. If you have some extra time it wouldn't hurt to apply to some local firms but I personally would prefer if 1Ls spent their time trying to do well on exams

I strongly believe that if you narrow your OCI to just a single city you're just unnecessarily leaving yourself a greater possibility for unemployment. If you'd rather be unemployed than work in NYC, that's your deal I guess

I just think not even Penn students should be overly selective. It's totally good to have a preference and gun for it hard, but you know what I mean

[Nelson]

You guys have been giving very informative responses so I thank you for your time and in depth answers.
In terms of 1L summer employment, do you find that you and most of your classmates are getting positions with judges or leaning towards firm jobs as Penn places most graduates into big law. And are those that secure employment in firms finding it usually in big markets (NYC) for 1L, or are they having more luck in smaller markets (Philly and maybe even Cherry Hill).

I've grown up in Philly my whole life, and have interests in staying and working in Philly after graduation so I'm just a little worried that I'll strike out in Philly OCI and have nothing. Willing to work elsewhere if necessary, but Philly is definitely the end goal.
Thanks again

Re: 1L employment. First, disclaimer, I only know/care about lit, so this advice may not be as applicable to transactional work. I think that 0Ls and 1Ls put way too much emphasis on firms and judges. Judicial externships (unlike clerkships) are overrated. You don't get to do very interesting work in a lot of cases and many chambers run their interns through their clerks so you don't even get much interaction with the judge. Firm positions are great if you can get it, but they're really not a thing in Philly or NYC unless you're diverse. I think gov't and public interest orgs. are a great way to spend a first summer since you'll get good experience and funding is basically guaranteed from Penn. Lots of people choose to work in Philly public interest/gov their first summer even if they plan to work for firms elsewhere after graduation because it saves a ton of travel and subletting hassle to just keep your apt over the first summer.

Re: bidding Philly. You can comfortably bid all of the Philly firms and still have half of your slots available. Plenty of people were getting 20-30 screeners through the lottery and waitlists. This means there's really no reason to restrict yourself to just one market at OCI.

[jdom]

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions guys/gals.

Do you have anything similar to https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defa ... s-2012.pdf that is publicly available?

[04102014]

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions guys/gals.

Do you have anything similar to https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defa ... s-2012.pdf that is publicly available?

Also interested in this.

[PennBull]

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions guys/gals.

Do you have anything similar to https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defa ... s-2012.pdf that is publicly available?

Also interested in this.

Yeah plus a pie chart showing the cumulative grade distribution of those who received offers

When I'm not on my phone I'll try to find it

I may not be allowed to share though

[Nelson]

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions guys/gals.

Do you have anything similar to https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defa ... s-2012.pdf that is publicly available?

Also interested in this.

It exists but I think the school prefers not to have it widely released. Not because of the bidding information, but because it has grades on it and Penn is cagey about all things grade-related.

[jumpin munkey]

On that note, to current 2Ls/3Ls -- how useful did you find those pie charts when creating bid lists? I must say I find it to be an exceptionally confusing way of doing things, but maybe I'm missing something. Obviously you get a general sense of grade selectivity when you look at the chart for Williams and Connolly next to the one for Katten Muchin. But on a more granular level, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to merely map my own grades into a chart and see how similar it looks to any given firm, and go from there. On the one hand this seems at least somewhat logical. But on the other hand, since these are lists of offers given and not offers accepted, it's hard to tell if, for example, a huge chunk of the As on Skadden's pie chart come from kids who had 6 As during 1L and got offers everywhere, thus giving Skadden a pie chart that makes it seem like you need better grades than you really do. I hope that makes sense. Any thoughts?

[BlueLotus]

How readily does Penn accept 3L visitors from other institutions? Have extenuating circumstances.

[PennBull]

On that note, to current 2Ls/3Ls -- how useful did you find those pie charts when creating bid lists? I must say I find it to be an exceptionally confusing way of doing things, but maybe I'm missing something. Obviously you get a general sense of grade selectivity when you look at the chart for Williams and Connolly next to the one for Katten Muchin. But on a more granular level, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to merely map my own grades into a chart and see how similar it looks to any given firm, and go from there. On the one hand this seems at least somewhat logical. But on the other hand, since these are lists of offers given and not offers accepted, it's hard to tell if, for example, a huge chunk of the As on Skadden's pie chart come from kids who had 6 As during 1L and got offers everywhere, thus giving Skadden a pie chart that makes it seem like you need better grades than you really do. I hope that makes sense. Any thoughts?

You're reading too much into it. Either your grades are comparable to the sample size or they're not. Also, the less offers given, the smaller the sample size, so grains of salt can be taken at some of those firms.

[Colonel_funkadunk]

Do you know of anyone who was going for Indianapolis biglaw and got it from Penn? I'm sure its not a region that's not often targeted from there.

[Nelson]

Do you know of anyone who was going for Indianapolis biglaw and got it from Penn? I'm sure its not a region that's not often targeted from there.

You're probably better off looking for associates at IN biglaw firms who went to Penn (if there are any) and working backwards. No one from c/o 2013 or 2014 went to an IN firm.

[bhanson10]

Question: Can we adjust our expected cost of Room and Board from our financial aid decision? I will be having to apply for a grad plus or a private to cover the "expected family contribution," but I will probably need a little bit more in loans than what they suggest I should take out. Thanks.

[Blackfish]

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[faith77]

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

[WhirledWorld]

Question: Can we adjust our expected cost of Room and Board from our financial aid decision? I will be having to apply for a grad plus or a private to cover the "expected family contribution," but I will probably need a little bit more in loans than what they suggest I should take out. Thanks.

You can borrow up to your award, but you don't need to borrow the whole amount--I definitely recommend borrowing as little as possible. You can live off way less than Penn recommends.

Any idea on how high in $$$ Penn can go in need based aid? TYIA!

People get full rides, I'm pretty sure some get stipends on top of that too. Lawschoolnumbers.com can probably provide you with more info.

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

You can still apply through 1L, and I know folks who got in during 2L as well.

The cons are the opportunity cost of your 1L summer (you're in class rather than getting quasi-legal experience, though the value of judicial internship or whatever isn't huge) and the $30k/yr extra. The pros are career flexibility--lateraling to consulting will be much easier (doable as a JD at some firms e.g. McKinsey, but much harder for most places), lateraling into finance will be possible (nearly impossible with just a JD). And JD/MBAs do seem outperform the JDs in law recruiting--maybe 50% of the Penn folks from my year at e.g. Wachtell & Cravath are JD/MBAs. Also a large number JD/MBAs at S&C, Skadden, etc.

There aren't really many careers that require or expect both a JD and an MBA, but it can help a lot in politics, international development, entrepreneurship, certain kinds of securities work.

I think a decent rule of thumb is that if you know you want to be a lawyer, the additional MBA isn't worth the cost. But if you're unsure, or if you want keep multiple career doors open, it's worth considering.

[Nelson]

And JD/MBAs do seem outperform the JDs in law recruiting--maybe 50% of the Penn folks from my year at e.g. Wachtell & Cravath are JD/MBAs. Also a large number JD/MBAs at S&C, Skadden, etc.

I agree with everything else, but this bit I think was a fluke of c/o 2014. Our year didn't see the same phenomenon. Probably just correlation between top grades people and JD/MBA folks for that year's class.

[faith77]

Question: Can we adjust our expected cost of Room and Board from our financial aid decision? I will be having to apply for a grad plus or a private to cover the "expected family contribution," but I will probably need a little bit more in loans than what they suggest I should take out. Thanks.

You can borrow up to your award, but you don't need to borrow the whole amount--I definitely recommend borrowing as little as possible. You can live off way less than Penn recommends.

Any idea on how high in $$$ Penn can go in need based aid? TYIA!

People get full rides, I'm pretty sure some get stipends on top of that too. Lawschoolnumbers.com can probably provide you with more info.

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

You can still apply through 1L, and I know folks who got in during 2L as well.

The cons are the opportunity cost of your 1L summer (you're in class rather than getting quasi-legal experience, though the value of judicial internship or whatever isn't huge) and the $30k/yr extra. The pros are career flexibility--lateraling to consulting will be much easier (doable as a JD at some firms e.g. McKinsey, but much harder for most places), lateraling into finance will be possible (nearly impossible with just a JD). And JD/MBAs do seem outperform the JDs in law recruiting--maybe 50% of the Penn folks from my year at e.g. Wachtell & Cravath are JD/MBAs. Also a large number JD/MBAs at S&C, Skadden, etc.

There aren't really many careers that require or expect both a JD and an MBA, but it can help a lot in politics, international development, entrepreneurship, certain kinds of securities work.

I think a decent rule of thumb is that if you know you want to be a lawyer, the additional MBA isn't worth the cost. But if you're unsure, or if you want keep multiple career doors open, it's worth considering.

Thank you for the response!

Yeah, the biggest con I see for me are the extra cost of $30k/yr. I know I do want to go BigLaw for awhile, and either stay on that route, go in-house, and/or eventually transition into academia (yeah things to figure out in the next few years hahaha). I'm not sure whether an MBA would be worth the cost and the energy, though an MBA from Wharton is pretty badass. Haha.

[WhirledWorld]

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

You can still apply through 1L, and I know folks who got in during 2L as well.

The cons are the opportunity cost of your 1L summer (you're in class rather than getting quasi-legal experience, though the value of judicial internship or whatever isn't huge) and the $30k/yr extra. The pros are career flexibility--lateraling to consulting will be much easier (doable as a JD at some firms e.g. McKinsey, but much harder for most places), lateraling into finance will be possible (nearly impossible with just a JD). And JD/MBAs do seem outperform the JDs in law recruiting--maybe 50% of the Penn folks from my year at e.g. Wachtell & Cravath are JD/MBAs. Also a large number JD/MBAs at S&C, Skadden, etc.

There aren't really many careers that require or expect both a JD and an MBA, but it can help a lot in politics, international development, entrepreneurship, certain kinds of securities work.

I think a decent rule of thumb is that if you know you want to be a lawyer, the additional MBA isn't worth the cost. But if you're unsure, or if you want keep multiple career doors open, it's worth considering.

Thank you for the response!

Yeah, the biggest con I see for me are the extra cost of $30k/yr. I know I do want to go BigLaw for awhile, and either stay on that route, go in-house, and/or eventually transition into academia (yeah things to figure out in the next few years hahaha). I'm not sure whether an MBA would be worth the cost and the energy, though an MBA from Wharton is pretty badass. Haha.

An MBA, even from Wharton, is pretty worthless for academia. If you know you want Biglaw/in-house, an MBA maybe isn't worth all the extra money.

But you don't need to be an MBA student to take Wharton classes. Four classes for Wharton credit will count towards your JD credit requirements, and on top of that there are a TON of classes taught by Wharton faculty offered to both MBAs and JDs that you can take for Law credit (Stuart Diamond's negotiation course & Perry Golkin's strategy class, to name two of the more popular ones). Not to mention the law courses that are essentially Wharton courses taught only to law students (e.g. Wachter's corporate finance course).

[faith77]

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

You can still apply through 1L, and I know folks who got in during 2L as well.

The cons are the opportunity cost of your 1L summer (you're in class rather than getting quasi-legal experience, though the value of judicial internship or whatever isn't huge) and the $30k/yr extra. The pros are career flexibility--lateraling to consulting will be much easier (doable as a JD at some firms e.g. McKinsey, but much harder for most places), lateraling into finance will be possible (nearly impossible with just a JD). And JD/MBAs do seem outperform the JDs in law recruiting--maybe 50% of the Penn folks from my year at e.g. Wachtell & Cravath are JD/MBAs. Also a large number JD/MBAs at S&C, Skadden, etc.

There aren't really many careers that require or expect both a JD and an MBA, but it can help a lot in politics, international development, entrepreneurship, certain kinds of securities work.

I think a decent rule of thumb is that if you know you want to be a lawyer, the additional MBA isn't worth the cost. But if you're unsure, or if you want keep multiple career doors open, it's worth considering.

Thank you for the response!

Yeah, the biggest con I see for me are the extra cost of $30k/yr. I know I do want to go BigLaw for awhile, and either stay on that route, go in-house, and/or eventually transition into academia (yeah things to figure out in the next few years hahaha). I'm not sure whether an MBA would be worth the cost and the energy, though an MBA from Wharton is pretty badass. Haha.

An MBA, even from Wharton, is pretty worthless for academia. If you know you want Biglaw/in-house, an MBA maybe isn't worth all the extra money.

But you don't need to be an MBA student to take Wharton classes. Four classes for Wharton credit will count towards your JD credit requirements, and on top of that there are a TON of classes taught by Wharton faculty offered to both MBAs and JDs that you can take for Law credit (Stuart Diamond's negotiation course & Perry Golkin's strategy class, to name two of the more popular ones). Not to mention the law courses that are essentially Wharton courses taught only to law students (e.g. Wachter's corporate finance course).

Thanks! I'll keep this in mind. I'll ask around more during ASW next week, too!

[PennBull]

I'm so excited to host ASW for the third time. Best ASW, bar none.

[Nelson]

I'm so excited to host ASW for the third time. Best ASW, bar none.

Is ASW this weekend? Shows how oblivious I am on campus most of the time.

[PennBull]

I'm so excited to host ASW for the third time. Best ASW, bar none.

Is ASW this weekend? Shows how oblivious I am on campus most of the time.

Next

[run26.2]

How readily does Penn accept 3L visitors from other institutions? Have extenuating circumstances.

Not sure how "readily" they accept them, but I know it is possible. I knew someone that visited Penn their 3L year from another T14.

[No13baby]

Thoughts on the JD-MBA 3 year program? I've already been accepted into the law school- you can still apply during your 1L for the 3 year right?

I'm most concerned about the program fee. My financial aid of grants and expected loans should cover the tuition and fees already for law school.

Also just curious on general thoughts from folks.
Aka - pros and cons, what kind of student would benefit from it/what career track..

I am in the JD/MBA program. You're welcome to PM me if you have any more specific questions about it.

[bhanson10]

As the time gets closer to moving to Philly, I was wondering if anyone could point me to a powerlifting friendly gym around penn? I am looking for a gym with a deadlifting platform and at least a couple power racks/squat racks. Acceptance of chalk would also be appreciated. Would any of the Penn rec centers fit the bill? TYIA!