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Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 21, 2023 5:43 pm

Why are you looking at either when you want to do appellate and/or practice in the Midwest? If just loans, I would consider that there are firms meeting your criteria better that are comparable financially to NYC biglaw (tons of firms in Chicago obviously, plus there are others that pay very well for the COL in MSP, Ohio, STL, even Des Moines). And for appeals you want DC.

Anyway I would just decide how you feel about the rotation system, they’re similar firms. Neither is meaningfully more prestigious or gets meaningfully better work. S&C does have an actual appellate group, unlike CSM, but it appears to recruit separately and idk if you’d get interest as “only” a district court, esp being in NY vs. DC.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:33 am

Almost certainly doxing myself to one or two people, but I am currently weighing offers from both post-FDC. I recognize I can’t really go wrong here, but I’m feeling torn and would appreciate input from people without a dog in the fight.

So, here are my considerations in order of importance:

1. Platform for the future.
- I want to do a COA clerkship within 5 years (S&C has more COA clerks in part bc it’s bigger)
- I probably want to leave big law in 3-5 years, so at least for now, my expectation is not to try to make partner at either, need $$ to pay off loans
- I want to be attractive to employers in the MidWest, which is where I plan to move in 3-5 years. Employers = top litigation boutiques in MW and competitive federal government jobs.
- I had a very very *bad* 1L Fall at a T20 bc of a medical issue, but I’ve done superlatively in every respect since, so I’ve been doing some closing the gap on “prestige”, which makes Cravath sort of attractive.

2. Quality of work
- I’d like to be doing more substantive legal work than doc review to the extent that’s reasonable to expect. The firms seem comparable (and very solid) in this respect.
- I don’t really know what I want to do long term other than vaguely civil litigation, probably appellate work, with a strong federal emphasis, so S&C’s generalist model is appealing in that I don’t really want to specialize at this point.
- that said, in terms of structure, I have preferred to work closely with one boss in past professional settings, so Cravath’s rotation system seems overall better to me, i.e., it’s staffing model of rotating associates to a new partner every few months, but I am wary about the possibility of getting stuck with a tough partner.

3. Quality of life
- I know my hours are going to suck and it seems like this aspect will be equally terrible at both firms. It is what it is.

4. Atmosphere
- I liked folks at both firms
- people seem to like working at S&C more, those I’ve spoken to struggled to find firm-specific things they didn’t like about working there, a lot clerked and came back, and a few worked as paralegals, went to law school, and then came back.
- people outside of the firm love to tell horror stories about Cravath, but I don’t really get the vibe from people who work there that it’s any worse than other big law. It mostly just seems more serious/cerebral than S&C
- S&C seems like a better personality fit, but if Cravath is “better” enough in terms of quality of work and reputation, then I’d still go there.

Appreciate any and all feedback.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 21, 2023 8:59 pm

As far as prestige and platform for the future and ability to get COA clerkship these two firms are not just "basically" identical they are identical. I honestly cannot comprehend a Judge or clerk picking someone who went to S&C over Cravath due even in part to their firm and vice versa. The only time this would happen is if the judge has personal connection to either firm or good or bad experiences with either firm and at that point you can't really predict. I'd just go to the firm that you like better for classic I like X firm better reasons (location, strength in a certain practice area, etc...)

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:10 am

For appellate, probably neither to be honest. Maybe Gibson, Kirkland, or (gasp) Jones Day if you're really serious about the Midwest? Not sure the latter would get you appellate experience unless you're specifically in I&A, but you could build up your network and stay in the same firm post-Midwest move? Though I hesitate to recommend Jones Day as a general rule, in the Midwest it's a pretty good option (Chicago aside).

If the choice is only between the two, I guess I'd say S&C.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:10 am

For appellate, probably neither to be honest. Maybe Gibson, Kirkland, or (gasp) Jones Day if you're really serious about the Midwest? Not sure the latter would get you appellate experience unless you're specifically in I&A, but you could build up your network and stay in the same firm post-Midwest move? Though I hesitate to recommend Jones Day as a general rule, in the Midwest it's a pretty good option (Chicago aside).

If the choice is only between the two, I guess I'd say S&C.

I am not really going for appellate rn--I'm not currently competitive for it at the level I'd like, and I have to be in NYC for my partner's job. Mostly just want something that will look nice on my resume until I get a circuit clerkship and then move into a lit boutique or appellate shop after. Also, I don't want to be in big law in the Midwest (hopefully gov in appellate), so I don't really think going to big firm's with a midwestern presence really makes any sense. If I am honest, just going for generic clout to maximize amorphous options later.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:10 am

For appellate, probably neither to be honest. Maybe Gibson, Kirkland, or (gasp) Jones Day if you're really serious about the Midwest? Not sure the latter would get you appellate experience unless you're specifically in I&A, but you could build up your network and stay in the same firm post-Midwest move? Though I hesitate to recommend Jones Day as a general rule, in the Midwest it's a pretty good option (Chicago aside).

If the choice is only between the two, I guess I'd say S&C.

I am not really going for appellate rn--I'm not currently competitive for it at the level I'd like, and I have to be in NYC for my partner's job. Mostly just want something that will look nice on my resume until I get a circuit clerkship and then move into a lit boutique or appellate shop after. Also, I don't want to be in big law in the Midwest (hopefully gov in appellate), so I don't really think going to big firm's with a midwestern presence really makes any sense. If I am honest, just going for generic clout to maximize amorphous options later.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 2:58 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:42 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:10 am

For appellate, probably neither to be honest. Maybe Gibson, Kirkland, or (gasp) Jones Day if you're really serious about the Midwest? Not sure the latter would get you appellate experience unless you're specifically in I&A, but you could build up your network and stay in the same firm post-Midwest move? Though I hesitate to recommend Jones Day as a general rule, in the Midwest it's a pretty good option (Chicago aside).

If the choice is only between the two, I guess I'd say S&C.

I am not really going for appellate rn--I'm not currently competitive for it at the level I'd like, and I have to be in NYC for my partner's job. Mostly just want something that will look nice on my resume until I get a circuit clerkship and then move into a lit boutique or appellate shop after. Also, I don't want to be in big law in the Midwest (hopefully gov in appellate), so I don't really think going to big firm's with a midwestern presence really makes any sense. If I am honest, just going for generic clout to maximize amorphous options later.

I think the actual, in-industry "clout" and resume appeal of these firms is entirely equal! Honestly, it kinda seems like you are trying to justify going to CSM. Which, like, power to you - it's a great firm and you should accept the offer if you want!! I just don't think it has a prestige benefit unless the people you are trying to impress are basing their prestige entirely on googling "best firm US"

CondescendingLiberal wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:12 pm

You are getting snowed. Cravath is a much more prestigious firm.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:12 am

CondescendingLiberal wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:12 pm

You are getting snowed. Cravath is a much more prestigious firm.

Much more prestigious than S&C? What a ridiculous take.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Tue Feb 28, 2023 11:12 am

CondescendingLiberal wrote: ↑

Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:12 pm

You are getting snowed. Cravath is a much more prestigious firm.

Much more prestigious than S&C? What a ridiculous take.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:12 pm

I think the leaner staffing at Cravath gives associates more responsibility than most firms, including S&C, as first and second years. Whether that responsibility is welcome or not depends on the person. There is also some difference as to what work the firm has and each's staffing system (open market vs being assigned to a specific partner). The specific partner assignments at Cravath can be extremely rewarding--teams can become very flat as you prove yourself. Or it could go sideways quickly. For what its worth Cravath is also starting to lateral in post-clerkship associates--the firms culture is set for a change. The client list is different at both firms as well. Lots to consider when picking between firms.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:12 pm

I think the leaner staffing at Cravath gives associates more responsibility than most firms, including S&C, as first and second years. Whether that responsibility is welcome or not depends on the person. There is also some difference as to what work the firm has and each's staffing system (open market vs being assigned to a specific partner). The specific partner assignments at Cravath can be extremely rewarding--teams can become very flat as you prove yourself. Or it could go sideways quickly. For what its worth Cravath is also starting to lateral in post-clerkship associates--the firms culture is set for a change. The client list is different at both firms as well. Lots to consider when picking between firms.

Does Cravath really staff leaner than S&C? The headcount at S&C NYC is 530 and Cravath NYC is 480.

Would appreciate insight into their industry coverage though, that's something you never really hear discussed

DanBoMingLi wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:32 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:12 pm

I think the leaner staffing at Cravath gives associates more responsibility than most firms, including S&C, as first and second years. Whether that responsibility is welcome or not depends on the person. There is also some difference as to what work the firm has and each's staffing system (open market vs being assigned to a specific partner). The specific partner assignments at Cravath can be extremely rewarding--teams can become very flat as you prove yourself. Or it could go sideways quickly. For what its worth Cravath is also starting to lateral in post-clerkship associates--the firms culture is set for a change. The client list is different at both firms as well. Lots to consider when picking between firms.

Does Cravath really staff leaner than S&C? The headcount at S&C NYC is 530 and Cravath NYC is 480.

Would appreciate insight into their industry coverage though, that's something you never really hear discussed

I’m assuming this is across all groups? A better comparison would be headcount in lit, but afaik neither firm gives you that tally on their website (and I’m not counting).

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:03 am

DanBoMingLi wrote: ↑

Fri Mar 10, 2023 9:32 am

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 8:03 pm

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Wed Mar 08, 2023 7:12 pm

I think the leaner staffing at Cravath gives associates more responsibility than most firms, including S&C, as first and second years. Whether that responsibility is welcome or not depends on the person. There is also some difference as to what work the firm has and each's staffing system (open market vs being assigned to a specific partner). The specific partner assignments at Cravath can be extremely rewarding--teams can become very flat as you prove yourself. Or it could go sideways quickly. For what its worth Cravath is also starting to lateral in post-clerkship associates--the firms culture is set for a change. The client list is different at both firms as well. Lots to consider when picking between firms.

Does Cravath really staff leaner than S&C? The headcount at S&C NYC is 530 and Cravath NYC is 480.

Would appreciate insight into their industry coverage though, that's something you never really hear discussed

I’m assuming this is across all groups? A better comparison would be headcount in lit, but afaik neither firm gives you that tally on their website (and I’m not counting).

this is going off firmprospects, but S&C has 215 in NYC lit and Cravath has 180 NYC in lit

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:08 pm

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.

Anonymous User wrote: ↑

Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:08 pm

I repeat, OP is getting snowed. Cravath and Wachtell are the best firms in NYC. Factor in that you want litigation, and the choice is an easy one.