Negotiating (mostly) remote position? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have a fairly strong resume (HYS, 2+ years BigLaw) and will be coming off of a COA clerkship. My family lives near a "secondary" Midwest city (i.e., not Chicago) and I will more likely than not relocate soon after my clerkship to be near them. However, I'm comparing the litigation opportunities at Chicago-based firms and firms in my to-be-local market and ... the level of respective excitement I feel is just not close. (I am motivated by "interesting" litigation, prestige, and $$$.) My dream is to swing a mostly-remote position with a Chicago office where I come in maybe once or twice a month, and also not be working at Quinn. (Unless the Quinn Chicago experience is very underrated? anyone?)

Is this a pipe dream, especially given the current state of the hiring market? If not, how do I even begin this kind of conversation with firms? Thank you all in advance!

[Anonymous User]

Quinn seems like the obvious answer here, how dead set are you on not working there? Can a firm of 1000+ attorneys really be uniformly that bad (or worse than biglaw generally)?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think any firm will hire you on the basis of your not following attendance policies. Those days are over and the trend is to bring people back. You have good credentials but you're ultimately just another fungible midlevel.

You might be able to find a firm where you can de facto not show up that much. There's a bunch of firms that aren't as strict about attendance, or it depends on the group. You have to network and find those groups. But the firms won't give you an official get-out-of-RTO-free card.

[Anonymous User]

Quinn seems like the obvious answer here, how dead set are you on not working there? Can a firm of 1000+ attorneys really be uniformly that bad (or worse than biglaw generally)?

OP here. I'm not categorically opposed to working at Quinn (let alone Quinn Chicago), but Quinn's reputation as a sweatshop, disproportionately high percentage of toxic partners to work with (so I hear), and the 2100 billable requirement all give me considerable pause. I'll try not to turn this into another Quinn thread, though.

I've heard that GDC is in practice extremely remote-friendly. If anybody can share insights, either about GDC or more generally, I'd appreciate it!

[Anonymous User]

Do you want to be remote-only in a firm where everyone else is in the office? I feel like that would really limit my ability to advance in the firm if everyone else was in person.

[emc91]

Dunno what others are talking about. You can def negotiate fully remote with your credentials. Just get some offers from firms that seem open to it and see what happens. I’m fully remote with way worse credentials in corporate lol and my firm (V30 ish I think) has fully remote folks in every group.

[Anonymous User]

Do you want to be remote-only in a firm where everyone else is in the office? I feel like that would really limit my ability to advance in the firm if everyone else was in person.

I'd prefer to be mostly-remote at a firm where there's a strong norm of remote work as opposed to mostly-remote at one without that norm, yes. But as long as I can stick around for a few years, collect some resume lines and cash some fat checks I'm good. (I get that the first two things are easier where I don't stick out for not showing up a lot.)

Dunno what others are talking about. You can def negotiate fully remote with your credentials. Just get some offers from firms that seem open to it and see what happens. I’m fully remote with way worse credentials in corporate lol and my firm (V30 ish I think) has fully remote folks in every group.

Thanks, this is helpful to know. Do you have any advice on how to broach the topic, and when? Definitely not at the screener stage, but pre-offer? Post? How to pitch it? I'm all ears....

[Anonymous User]

Do you want to be remote-only in a firm where everyone else is in the office? I feel like that would really limit my ability to advance in the firm if everyone else was in person.

I'd prefer to be mostly-remote at a firm where there's a strong norm of remote work as opposed to mostly-remote at one without that norm, yes. But as long as I can stick around for a few years, collect some resume lines and cash some fat checks I'm good. (I get that the first two things are easier where I don't stick out for not showing up a lot.)

Dunno what others are talking about. You can def negotiate fully remote with your credentials. Just get some offers from firms that seem open to it and see what happens. I’m fully remote with way worse credentials in corporate lol and my firm (V30 ish I think) has fully remote folks in every group.

Thanks, this is helpful to know. Do you have any advice on how to broach the topic, and when? Definitely not at the screener stage, but pre-offer? Post? How to pitch it? I'm all ears....

I started remotely (was living in a city without an office) and then basically asked to never move after working there for 4 months because personal circumstances changed (was going to move to a city with the office I interviewed with and then didn’t). Others I know brought it up at the offer stage.

[Anonymous User]

You should go to Quinn. I love it. No other firm you would be interested in allows WFH. You will not bill much less than 2100 hours at a peer firm. At least Quinn has a transparent minimum while its peer firms who don’t will make sure you are working at least 2100 if not more. Cravath for example has no minimum but they all bill upwards of 2700.

[Anonymous User]

You should go to Quinn. I love it. No other firm you would be interested in allows WFH. You will not bill much less than 2100 hours at a peer firm. At least Quinn has a transparent minimum while its peer firms who don’t will make sure you are working at least 2100 if not more. Cravath for example has no minimum but they all bill upwards of 2700.

I guess it's got to be on the table, based on the relative dearth of accounts of mostly-remote arrangements I'm hearing from people.

[2013]

I think the poster above at the V30 is at Goodwin. I believe Goodwin did away with the remote associate thing going forward.

You have good credentials, but they’re not good enough to justify letting you not do RTO unless your clerkship was a SCOTUS clerkship and the firm has never landed a SCOTUS clerk before.

The people saying that there are firms that don’t care mean that firms don’t enforce the rule. However, if the firm found out that you’re mainly living/working out of a city that is in a state they don’t already pay taxes in, you may be approached by some angry partners if they find out.

[Anonymous User]

I think the poster above at the V30 is at Goodwin. I believe Goodwin did away with the remote associate thing going forward.

You have good credentials, but they’re not good enough to justify letting you not do RTO unless your clerkship was a SCOTUS clerkship and the firm has never landed a SCOTUS clerk before.

The people saying that there are firms that don’t care mean that firms don’t enforce the rule. However, if the firm found out that you’re mainly living/working out of a city that is in a state they don’t already pay taxes in, you may be approached by some angry partners if they find out.

At Goodwin, they're honoring existing remote associate arrangements but generally not permitting new ones. Especially for lit, which has stronger RTO pressure than corporate, notion you'd be able to negotiate something like this feels farfetched. Generally agree with the above that if you really want to wrangle a role like this, you should be at Quinn.

[Anonymous User]

Just my more macro-level five cents as someone practicing in a secondary Midwestern market...

(1) I'd make triple-sure there are no small local offices of biglaw firms that could give you the experience you want. Jones Day obviously has a bunch in the Midwest, but there are some that might surprise you, like Perkins Coie has a Madison office for some reason, and there are some pretty large firms with Ann Arbor offices. I assume you've already checked this exhaustively but just in case.

(2) I think there is a real gap in type of work between "regional biglaw" and "true" biglaw--if you really like nine-figure litigation, your odds of getting that at a V100 are less than at Quinn. On the other hand, some people prefer working on smaller teams at smaller places (cf. the boutique vs. biglaw discussion), and partnership prospects and WLB are sometimes (but definitely not always) significantly better at "regional biglaw" firms, and to a large extent a breach of contract case is a breach of contract case.

(3) Since you mention prestige, at cocktail parties, non-lawyers would be more impressed to find out you work at whatever firm reps the big banks in town than that you work at (e.g.) Quinn. Biglaw firms aren't well-known, even among wealthy professionals, outside of biglaw cities. Litigators will know what Quinn is, but won't necessarily think it's more prestigious (versus just different) than whatever firm reps the big banks in town.

(4) I would be pretty hesitant about longevity as a remote associate in the current environment. Not a problem if your plan is to work biglaw two years then bounce to a firm local to your city, which can be a good way to make a killing in a short amount of time, but I wouldn't count on being able to stay long-term. That means keeping an eye on the exit and an ear to the ground regarding where might make sense for your next step.

(5) There may be some firms with less of a national presence that are nevertheless better (on work, comp, WLB, local prestige, etc.) than V100 offices with more national name rec. If you were to ask most people the best places to litigate in my state, most of the top picks would be small lit boutiques or native firms, and some of the satellite offices would not be in the conversation at all. Personally, I'd only recommend one of the V100s. I think looking at where federal clerks tend to go is a good proxy--and there's no real substitute for getting lunch with people.