Are any of these firms "up or out?" or can you hang around as long as you do good work? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Skadden

Covington

Kirkland

Gibson Dunn

Latham

[nealric]

All of them and none of them. The standards for "good work" will change as you get more senior. As long as you continue to meet that rising standard, you will most likely be able stick around (barring a severe economic downturn). That rising standard is the "up." Few firms will let an 8th or 9th year do nothing but 1st/2nd year diligence/doc review.

The old "up or out" mostly applied to making partner. If you didn't make partner, you were expected to move along. But the chances of making partner were higher. Today, someone who gets all the way to their partnership year is unlikely to be asked to leave simply because they don't intend to make them equity parnter.

[existentialcrisis]

All of them and none of them. The standards for "good work" will change as you get more senior. As long as you continue to meet that rising standard, you will most likely be able stick around (barring a severe economic downturn). That rising standard is the "up." Few firms will let an 8th or 9th year do nothing but 1st/2nd year diligence/doc review.

The old "up or out" mostly applied to making partner. If you didn't make partner, you were expected to move along. But the chances of making partner were higher. Today, someone who gets all the way to their partnership year is unlikely to be asked to leave simply because they don't intend to make them equity parnter.

All of this.

But also, this is just a terrible way to think about deciding between firms if you're a 2L.

You have no way of knowing if you're going to be cut out for biglaw long term and the vast majority of people aren't.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Are you a 2L asking a question that won't become relevant to you for 10 years?

In decent economic times, in all likelihood you will lose interest in Biglaw long before Biglaw loses interest in you.

[Anonymous User]

Are you a 2L asking a question that won't become relevant to you for 10 years?

In decent economic times, in all likelihood you will lose interest in Biglaw long before Biglaw loses interest in you.

7th here and I feel like this is true for half my class and it’s sort of true for me as well. Only thing keeping me from leaving is the money and I know partnership is off the table.

[nealric]

Are you a 2L asking a question that won't become relevant to you for 10 years?

In decent economic times, in all likelihood you will lose interest in Biglaw long before Biglaw loses interest in you.

Of everyone I know from my class (graduated over a decade ago), I can’t think of anybody who left big law completely involuntarily. A few got laid off and gave up, but mostly because they were never that hung ho in the first place. The people who really wanted to be in big law stayed. But the vast majority burned out eventually (some even after partnership).

[Anonymous User]

Are you a 2L asking a question that won't become relevant to you for 10 years?

In decent economic times, in all likelihood you will lose interest in Biglaw long before Biglaw loses interest in you.

Of everyone I know from my class (graduated over a decade ago), I can’t think of anybody who lift big law completely involuntarily. A few got laid off and gave up, but mostly because they were never that hung ho in the first place. The people who really wanted to be in big law stayed. But the vast majority burned out eventually (some even after partnership).

Just a currently law student here, but do you feel confident you would know if someone from your class left involuntarily? They would probably avoid sharing that to save face.

[nealric]

Are you a 2L asking a question that won't become relevant to you for 10 years?

In decent economic times, in all likelihood you will lose interest in Biglaw long before Biglaw loses interest in you.

Of everyone I know from my class (graduated over a decade ago), I can’t think of anybody who lift big law completely involuntarily. A few got laid off and gave up, but mostly because they were never that hung ho in the first place. The people who really wanted to be in big law stayed. But the vast majority burned out eventually (some even after partnership).

Just a currently law student here, but do you feel confident you would know if someone from your class left involuntarily? They would probably avoid sharing that to save face.

For the ones closer to me, we actually talked about the transition. Of course there's no 100% uncertainty for those I didn't talk to, but you can usually get a pretty good idea based on the timing. If they are in another role a week after leaving biglaw and stuck in that role for several years thereafter, that's a pretty good sign they weren't desperately holding out for another biglaw offer and they simply decided to get out (or at the very least, once out realized they didn't want back in). Frankly, it's a fairly rare person who truly desires to be in biglaw for the rest of their lives. You'd be surprised how many partners (not just junior partners) fantasize about exit options.

Another thing to keep in mind that except for severe downturns and very economically sensitive practices, firms always struggle to attract trained/qualified people. 1st/2nd years are pretty fungible and replaceable, but if you manage to stick it out to the senior associate level, you are most likely pretty valuable to at least some firm. It's fairly unlikely that someone with the skills and desire couldn't find some biglaw firm somewhere willing to take them. I'd also argue that anybody who is still gung-ho about sticking it out in biglaw is fairly unlikely to get let go in the first place. They are probably still hustling for work or looking for another firm if their firm is slow while many of their peers are trudging through burnout.