SullCrom v Simpson v going to OCI Forum

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

[Anonymous User]

How did you get a signing bonus?

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

[xxxsummer]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

May I ask how did you get the signing bonus from Simpson? Is that a regular thing offered by Simpson in pre-OCI?

[Anonymous User]

Anecdotal but at my school (Stanford/Berkeley) STB Palo Alto had/has a reputation for bad culture. Anon because school info and previous posts could dox me.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

May I ask how did you get the signing bonus from Simpson? Is that a regular thing offered by Simpson in pre-OCI?

OP here, Simpson PA seems to be offering a signing bonus if people respond by August 5thish. I did not negotiate the bonus but think they're doing it to try to speed up responses because the partner at the office who I spoke to indicated they've had issues with people holding offers open for a while. Based on my overall preference for S&C and what I've heard here, I may let them know this week that I won't be taking it so they can free up an offer.

I would also like to hear which firms in the Bay Area would be considered better than SullCrom for white collar. I have done screeners with most of the firms chamber ranked band 1-3 in white collar for the bay area, but am waiting on responses from a lot of them.

[Anonymous User]

Is your S&C offer for NYC or Palo Alto? S&C NY is very good for white collar, no idea about in CA. In general the most desirable white collar firms are often boutiques that represent individuals, but they can have lower comp.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

May I ask how did you get the signing bonus from Simpson? Is that a regular thing offered by Simpson in pre-OCI?

OP here, Simpson PA seems to be offering a signing bonus if people respond by August 5thish. I did not negotiate the bonus but think they're doing it to try to speed up responses because the partner at the office who I spoke to indicated they've had issues with people holding offers open for a while. Based on my overall preference for S&C and what I've heard here, I may let them know this week that I won't be taking it so they can free up an offer.

I would also like to hear which firms in the Bay Area would be considered better than SullCrom for white collar. I have done screeners with most of the firms chamber ranked band 1-3 in white collar for the bay area, but am waiting on responses from a lot of them.

If this is S&C PA, I would rerecruit for Covington/Gibson SF. Maybe Keker if you have the grades.

[existentialcrisis]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

[existentialcrisis]

Sullcrom is one of the better places for White Collar. I doubt you’d be able to land anything better than that with top 30% at a lower T-14.

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

[Anonymous User]

wait are SA's really getting non-diversity signing bonuses?

[Anonymous User]

Different anon but similar situation with Sullivan and Latham and at a CCN school, which firms would be better than S&C for white collar?

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

May I ask how did you get the signing bonus from Simpson? Is that a regular thing offered by Simpson in pre-OCI?

OP here, Simpson PA seems to be offering a signing bonus if people respond by August 5thish. I did not negotiate the bonus but think they're doing it to try to speed up responses because the partner at the office who I spoke to indicated they've had issues with people holding offers open for a while. Based on my overall preference for S&C and what I've heard here, I may let them know this week that I won't be taking it so they can free up an offer.

I would also like to hear which firms in the Bay Area would be considered better than SullCrom for white collar. I have done screeners with most of the firms chamber ranked band 1-3 in white collar for the bay area, but am waiting on responses from a lot of them.

If this is S&C PA, I would rerecruit for Covington/Gibson SF. Maybe Keker if you have the grades.

I have an interview with Gibson PA soon--is SF better for white collar? I could probably switch. Unfortunately I don't think I have the grades for Keker but I am interviewing with them too. Already interviewed with Covington and am waiting for a possible cb.

[existentialcrisis]

The top white collar lit firms in NYC are the same as the top lit with the inclusion of debevoise. So S&C GDC PW Skadden CSM Quinn (doin less work in white collar) and i'd add the NY offices of some of the DC shops like Covington. Boutiques do mroe white collar trial lit as well

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

Ya, idk I don’t do white collar or even lit.

I wouldn’t pretend to be knowledgeable enough on the industry to parse the nuances of the chambers rankings.

What I DO know is that vault is a terrible way to assess the strength of practice areas and chambers will almost always be the best resource for that.

[Anonymous User]

Top 30%ish at a lower t14, sitting on offers at Sullivan & Cromwell and Simpson Thacher Bay Area. I'm interested in litigation (white collar + regular civil lit). First of all, any vibes about the two offices? I got an overall better feel from SullCrom but liked people at both offices. Another X factor is that Simpson offered me a 7.5k signing bonus, but only if I get back to them by August 5th.

Second, do you guys think that I should choose from between these two offers, or keep on interviewing? I have a CB at Goodwin next week. My main concern is neither SullCrom nor Simpson seems to be particularly highly regarded for white collar, which is a practice area I'd like to do at least a bit in. OTOH, they're very respected firms overall.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty lost with all this and would love any input.

May I ask how did you get the signing bonus from Simpson? Is that a regular thing offered by Simpson in pre-OCI?

OP here, Simpson PA seems to be offering a signing bonus if people respond by August 5thish. I did not negotiate the bonus but think they're doing it to try to speed up responses because the partner at the office who I spoke to indicated they've had issues with people holding offers open for a while. Based on my overall preference for S&C and what I've heard here, I may let them know this week that I won't be taking it so they can free up an offer.

I would also like to hear which firms in the Bay Area would be considered better than SullCrom for white collar. I have done screeners with most of the firms chamber ranked band 1-3 in white collar for the bay area, but am waiting on responses from a lot of them.

If this is S&C PA, I would rerecruit for Covington/Gibson SF. Maybe Keker if you have the grades.

I have an interview with Gibson PA soon--is SF better for white collar? I could probably switch. Unfortunately I don't think I have the grades for Keker but I am interviewing with them too. Already interviewed with Covington and am waiting for a possible cb.

PA offices are corporate-heavy, meaning they're going to be weaker than SF offices for WC. Generally, SV = corp and SF = lit.

[Anonymous User]

For NYC, DPW is has a very strong white collar group as well. None of these groups are better than Sullcrom's white collar group. They're about the same.

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

Ya, idk I don’t do white collar or even lit.

I wouldn’t pretend to be knowledgeable enough on the industry to parse the nuances of the chambers rankings.

What I DO know is that vault is a terrible way to assess the strength of practice areas and chambers will almost always be the best resource for that.

Agree that vault is terrible. But what is chambers' methodology? It has Susman as band 3 in general commercial lit in NY.

[existentialcrisis]

What metrics are you all using for your claims? Vault?

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

Ya, idk I don’t do white collar or even lit.

I wouldn’t pretend to be knowledgeable enough on the industry to parse the nuances of the chambers rankings.

What I DO know is that vault is a terrible way to assess the strength of practice areas and chambers will almost always be the best resource for that.

Agree that vault is terrible. But what is chambers' methodology? It has Susman as band 3 in general commercial lit in NY.

It’s based on input from clients.

It’s true that firms try to game it a bit, but it’s also definitely the best, most accurate practice area ranking available.

[Anonymous User]

You should be ignoring Vault for this and instead looking at chambers

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 79:12806:1

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

Ya, idk I don’t do white collar or even lit.

I wouldn’t pretend to be knowledgeable enough on the industry to parse the nuances of the chambers rankings.

What I DO know is that vault is a terrible way to assess the strength of practice areas and chambers will almost always be the best resource for that.

Agree that vault is terrible. But what is chambers' methodology? It has Susman as band 3 in general commercial lit in NY.

It’s based on input from clients.

It’s true that firms try to game it a bit, but it’s also definitely the best, most accurate practice area ranking available.

Interesting. Does it disfavor smaller firms? All the boutiques I looked at are lower than would seem accurate. (Susman, Kellogg Hansen, Bartlit Beck.)

[existentialcrisis]

This list seems weird. Covington and Wilmer in band 2? I was under the impression that they were market leaders in the space, but that might be the halo from their DC offices.

That's a NY ranking. Both are Band 1 in DC:

https://chambers.com/legal-rankings/lit ... 95:12246:1

No I specifically meant Cov/Wilmer NY. I thought they would def be band 1 for White Collar/Internal Investigations in NY.

Ya, idk I don’t do white collar or even lit.

I wouldn’t pretend to be knowledgeable enough on the industry to parse the nuances of the chambers rankings.

What I DO know is that vault is a terrible way to assess the strength of practice areas and chambers will almost always be the best resource for that.

Agree that vault is terrible. But what is chambers' methodology? It has Susman as band 3 in general commercial lit in NY.

It’s based on input from clients.

It’s true that firms try to game it a bit, but it’s also definitely the best, most accurate practice area ranking available.

Interesting. Does it disfavor smaller firms? All the boutiques I looked at are lower than would seem accurate. (Susman, Kellogg Hansen, Bartlit Beck.)

Probably. It's the best (only?) reputable source of practice area rankings that actual practicing attorney's/firms pay attention to.

That doesn't mean it's an 100% comprehensive source though.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't be surprised if it has a slight bias towards high-volume. Susman NY is pretty small (and Cov/Wilmer NY aren't that big either). Still excellent firms, but if you're doing excellent work in lower volume than a firm doing work almost at the same level I wouldn't be surprised if the Chambers methodology favors the latter.