NY Firms No-Offering Forum

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

A few things that I've seen -

Treating partners like they are friends. TBF, partners foster this but hoo boy they are in for a rude awakening once they start as associates.

Bring too loud/roudy in restaurants. Drinking too much (and bragging about it). Asking for off menu items.

Asking questions about people's religion - in a friendly way but not something you do until you really know someone.

Walking around the office without shoes on.

Getting very flustered by routine assignments / not making deadlines. It's one thing for it to take more time than it would take me, it's another not yo get a response for 3 days for something that should take an hour max. (maybe here I'm being too harsh. But other summers were much more competent)

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

I don’t know what firm you’re at, but some of this seems a bit harsh. God forbid someone wear a sundress of a reasonable length, or use “informal” or “casual language” when speaking to an associate, or (shock) arrive a few minutes late to a probably pointless meeting. We’re not working in a nunnery and things have gotten more relaxed, especially post-pandemic.

[Anonymous User]

One of them went around saying congratulations to female SA's post Dobbs and the other asked a black share partner if he was a diversity hire.

I always wonder how people like this managed to make it through college and a (presumably) good law school without realizing how bad this activity is

Kids who never were in a normal work environment sometimes lack the awareness of what's not OK at work. Also the 100% offer rate + common online refrain that you need to sexually harass someone to lose your offer has I think shifted the way people act. Maybe this will make me sound like a boomer but I've seen a lot of summers behave inappropriately for a work environment. I guess they'll eventually grow up and once the workload hits they won't have time to act up. But maybe scaring summers isn't so bad.

The thing is, college environments --and especially top colleges that most biglaw SA's went to-- are much more sensitive about this type of thing than many work environments. As someone who worked office jobs in Texas for many years, and then went to HYS much later in life (and recently), congratulating women about Dobbs and asking someone if they are a diversity hire is something that I would expect out of a Texas office much moreso than a top university campus. So I dont think the "i didnt know work culture thing" really tracks. Wearing sundresses or whatever, yeah i guess, but i think the young people just dont care rather than dont know.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

I don’t know what firm you’re at, but some of this seems a bit harsh. God forbid someone wear a sundress of a reasonable length, or use “informal” or “casual language” when speaking to an associate, or (shock) arrive a few minutes late to a probably pointless meeting. We’re not working in a nunnery and things have gotten more relaxed, especially post-pandemic.

I'm the poster you're responding to. I'm a woman who wears sundresses pretty often and I've worked at 3 firms as a paralegal and an associate. I'm referring to casual sundresses (short, spaghetti strap) that are clearly not appropriate for a law firm setting, even one more casual because of summer and Covid. I'm not at a stuffy firm and none of the lawyers dress like that.

By informal language, I'm talking about a summer walking into a senior associate's office to discuss a research question and saying "So, like basically, ABC fucked up and..." The senior associate was taken aback enough that he mentioned it to me. And maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I think in a professional setting (not a social event) there are some basic boundaries that should be maintained when you're a summer intern.

And finally, I think walking into a meeting with a partner who's the head of your group 10 minutes late, with no explanation, as the most junior person (again, an intern), and where you're being assigned work, is the height of unprofessionalism. You basically just have to do the bare minimum as a summer and that's not it.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

I don’t know what firm you’re at, but some of this seems a bit harsh. God forbid someone wear a sundress of a reasonable length, or use “informal” or “casual language” when speaking to an associate, or (shock) arrive a few minutes late to a probably pointless meeting. We’re not working in a nunnery and things have gotten more relaxed, especially post-pandemic.

I'm the poster you're responding to. I'm a woman who wears sundresses pretty often and I've worked at 3 firms as a paralegal and an associate. I'm referring to casual sundresses (short, spaghetti strap) that are clearly not appropriate for a law firm setting, even one more casual because of summer and Covid. I'm not at a stuffy firm and none of the lawyers dress like that.

By informal language, I'm talking about a summer walking into a senior associate's office to discuss a research question and saying "So, like basically, ABC fucked up and..." The senior associate was taken aback enough that he mentioned it to me. And maybe it's just a difference of opinion, but I think in a professional setting (not a social event) there are some basic boundaries that should be maintained when you're a summer intern.

And finally, I think walking into a meeting with a partner who's the head of your group 10 minutes late, with no explanation, as the most junior person (again, an intern), and where you're being assigned work, is the height of unprofessionalism. You basically just have to do the bare minimum as a summer and that's not it.

I really don't see the problem in the summer associate saying "ABC fucked up" in the context of a research thing when talking to another associate, in their office, not on email, and away from a client.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

I don’t know what firm you’re at, but some of this seems a bit harsh. God forbid someone wear a sundress of a reasonable length, or use “informal” or “casual language” when speaking to an associate, or (shock) arrive a few minutes late to a probably pointless meeting. We’re not working in a nunnery and things have gotten more relaxed, especially post-pandemic.

All these things just indicate inability to read a room. I personally don’t care if someone wears a sundress, but I can definitely picture sundresses that aren’t work appropriate (like you had to add in “of a reasonable length”), and if you’re wearing them, I’m going to assume either that you’re too oblivious to realize they’re inappropriate or you don’t care about office norms (people can get away with not caring at various points in their career but I don’t think as a SA is one of them). If you’re the only one cursing (or you and other SAs), same thing. And being late is just stupid even if a meeting is pointless (because guess what? the SA doesn’t get to decide the meeting is pointless).

Obviously I’m not talking about if you have a legit reason to be late, or if you’re in a casual office where your sundress and language fits in with everyone. And I’m not saying someone deserves to be dinged for all or any of these things (especially not clothing). But if you stand out for these things at the same time that you’re turning down assignments, not completing assignments, and leaving early for social reasons, your clothes and language and lateness are going to be seen as part of you not getting it.

You can rail against these kinds of professional norms all you like but I don’t think it’s harsh to notice if SAs aren’t meeting them. The norms can be stupid and it’s still to your advantage to follow them.

(And nitpicking individual examples doesn’t really weaken the overall point. If the senior associate was taken aback by “ABC fucked up” then that’s probably an office that doesn’t throw that language around, which a SA should figure out.)

[Anonymous User]

To all those responding to a list of issues with "well #4 is OK imo". There's other stuff on the list! And if someone notices multiple issues, you can be sure there's also intangibles that are harder to articulate.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.
- Cursing and using super informal/casual language during work-related meetings with supervising associates.
- Wearing inappropriate clothes to work (i.e. sundresses)
- Flatly saying no to assignments.
- Sitting on assignments for multiple weeks and then turning in unfinished work product (like less than 10% of the work assigned) during the last week of the summer program.
- Telling associates they need to leave early for non-firm related social events.

I don’t know what firm you’re at, but some of this seems a bit harsh. God forbid someone wear a sundress of a reasonable length, or use “informal” or “casual language” when speaking to an associate, or (shock) arrive a few minutes late to a probably pointless meeting. We’re not working in a nunnery and things have gotten more relaxed, especially post-pandemic.

All these things just indicate inability to read a room. I personally don’t care if someone wears a sundress, but I can definitely picture sundresses that aren’t work appropriate (like you had to add in “of a reasonable length”), and if you’re wearing them, I’m going to assume either that you’re too oblivious to realize they’re inappropriate or you don’t care about office norms (people can get away with not caring at various points in their career but I don’t think as a SA is one of them). If you’re the only one cursing (or you and other SAs), same thing. And being late is just stupid even if a meeting is pointless (because guess what? the SA doesn’t get to decide the meeting is pointless).

Obviously I’m not talking about if you have a legit reason to be late, or if you’re in a casual office where your sundress and language fits in with everyone. And I’m not saying someone deserves to be dinged for all or any of these things (especially not clothing). But if you stand out for these things at the same time that you’re turning down assignments, not completing assignments, and leaving early for social reasons, your clothes and language and lateness are going to be seen as part of you not getting it.

You can rail against these kinds of professional norms all you like but I don’t think it’s harsh to notice if SAs aren’t meeting them. The norms can be stupid and it’s still to your advantage to follow them.

(And nitpicking individual examples doesn’t really weaken the overall point. If the senior associate was taken aback by “ABC fucked up” then that’s probably an office that doesn’t throw that language around, which a SA should figure out.)

Snarky anon. I’m just not one to enforce these sort of utterly meaningless norms on summers. Work product should always be the focus. We have hard enough jobs as is, so to be dinging kids for the little stuff feels like taking our stress out on them just because we have some marginal power over them. If they do work and aren’t blatantly disrespectful / don’t commit actionable harassment, then leave the kids alone. If I can swear to my colleagues, so can they (and I do, and did to my judges too). This is 2022.

And re the clothing: the only basis for objecting should be something patently revealing to the point of being distracting. Unless you’re seeing clients, who cares how people dress in the office. We’ve all been working out of our second bedrooms in sweats for two years and frankly the profession could dress a little more modern and attractive. I’d rather ding the kids for their ugly square toed shoes than spaghetti straps if we’re going to go there… And not for nothing, but some of the soft clothing and language norms are highly exclusionary and most often used to gatekeep and penalize people from less conventional backgrounds.

[Anonymous User]

The associates making partner are the ones who take the summers out to get hammered and order off menu items. The ones who care about how summers are performing are prolly not making it

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

one thing I noticed is, some summers think they are close in status to a junior associate. When in actuality, a great junior (e.g., some star 2nd year) is lightyears more important than a summer. But mostly I ignored the summers and their behavior

[Anonymous User]

one thing I noticed is, some summers think they are close in status to a junior associate. When in actuality, a great junior (e.g., some star 2nd year) is lightyears more important than a summer. But mostly I ignored the summers and their behavior

A great junior is incomprehensibly more important than a summer, but a summer is actually much more important than a meh junior, because the summer could end up being a great junior, and meh juniors are a dime a dozen. All about option value!

[Anonymous User]

Snarky anon. I’m just not one to enforce these sort of utterly meaningless norms on summers. Work product should always be the focus. We have hard enough jobs as is, so to be dinging kids for the little stuff feels like taking our stress out on them just because we have some marginal power over them. If they do work and aren’t blatantly disrespectful / don’t commit actionable harassment, then leave the kids alone. If I can swear to my colleagues, so can they (and I do, and did to my judges too). This is 2022.

And re the clothing: the only basis for objecting should be something patently revealing to the point of being distracting. Unless you’re seeing clients, who cares how people dress in the office. We’ve all been working out of our second bedrooms in sweats for two years and frankly the profession could dress a little more modern and attractive. I’d rather ding the kids for their ugly square toed shoes than spaghetti straps if we’re going to go there… And not for nothing, but some of the soft clothing and language norms are highly exclusionary and most often used to gatekeep and penalize people from less conventional backgrounds.

The anon you responded to. Like I said, I wouldn't ding someone for wearing the wrong clothes, and I don't think I said this, but I don't care if they curse, either. I agree that the clothing/language thing can be highly exclusionary and that that kind of gatekeeping is bad - that's a totally fair point.

But the thing is that it's human to notice things that make people stand out, and when there are also work product issues - which there definitely were, in the list of grievances - the other stuff isn't going to help. Someone in a skimpy sundress who's doing great work? I don't give a shit what they wear. Skimpy sundress + slacking on assignments? The sundress isn't going to help me think they understand what the job requires.

So I was probably overly harsh in terms of assigning blame, but I think the reality is that professional norms exist and aren't going anywhere, even if they can vary by office/industry, and that SAs do need to learn what they are, so as not to hand anyone ammunition that can be used against them. I think there's a difference between "many professional norms for office jobs are dumb and pointless" and "because many professional norms for office jobs are dumb and pointless, people should feel free to ignore them."

(But I'll also acknowledge that I go to court a lot (relatively speaking), so that influences the clothing culture in my office, and my own personal neuroses mean that I'm obsessed with figuring out norms and trying to meet them, so that's my bias.)

I would definitely put being late in the work product bucket, though (assuming no legit reason/it's consistent enough to notice).

[BLPartner]

Totally agree that being late is a different creature than some of this other stuff. "Wanna be on time? See you 10 minutes early. Wanna be late? See you sauntering in at the stoke of eight."

[Anonymous User]

The associates making partner are the ones who take the summers out to get hammered and order off menu items. The ones who care about how summers are performing are prolly not making it

I'm the one who made the off menu comment. I wasn't the one who took them out and if I had it probably wouldn't have been a problem. I don't want to give more details but in the context it definitely raised eyebrows (by partners, fwiw). Definitely failure to read the room. But whatever if you wanna argue, fine. They're all getting offers.

Re drinking - idk I guess I'm fine with having alcoholic beverages but getting plastered at every work event is strange to me. Especially when you aren't making deadlines. Just a general mindset that the summer is for partying. Which I guess it is, idk.

[Anonymous User]

Snarky anon. I’m just not one to enforce these sort of utterly meaningless norms on summers. Work product should always be the focus. We have hard enough jobs as is, so to be dinging kids for the little stuff feels like taking our stress out on them just because we have some marginal power over them. If they do work and aren’t blatantly disrespectful / don’t commit actionable harassment, then leave the kids alone. If I can swear to my colleagues, so can they (and I do, and did to my judges too). This is 2022.

And re the clothing: the only basis for objecting should be something patently revealing to the point of being distracting. Unless you’re seeing clients, who cares how people dress in the office. We’ve all been working out of our second bedrooms in sweats for two years and frankly the profession could dress a little more modern and attractive. I’d rather ding the kids for their ugly square toed shoes than spaghetti straps if we’re going to go there… And not for nothing, but some of the soft clothing and language norms are highly exclusionary and most often used to gatekeep and penalize people from less conventional backgrounds.

The anon you responded to. Like I said, I wouldn't ding someone for wearing the wrong clothes, and I don't think I said this, but I don't care if they curse, either. I agree that the clothing/language thing can be highly exclusionary and that that kind of gatekeeping is bad - that's a totally fair point.

But the thing is that it's human to notice things that make people stand out, and when there are also work product issues - which there definitely were, in the list of grievances - the other stuff isn't going to help. Someone in a skimpy sundress who's doing great work? I don't give a shit what they wear. Skimpy sundress + slacking on assignments? The sundress isn't going to help me think they understand what the job requires.

So I was probably overly harsh in terms of assigning blame, but I think the reality is that professional norms exist and aren't going anywhere, even if they can vary by office/industry, and that SAs do need to learn what they are, so as not to hand anyone ammunition that can be used against them. I think there's a difference between "many professional norms for office jobs are dumb and pointless" and "because many professional norms for office jobs are dumb and pointless, people should feel free to ignore them."

(But I'll also acknowledge that I go to court a lot (relatively speaking), so that influences the clothing culture in my office, and my own personal neuroses mean that I'm obsessed with figuring out norms and trying to meet them, so that's my bias.)

I would definitely put being late in the work product bucket, though (assuming no legit reason/it's consistent enough to notice).

I come from the kind of background that you both think you're defending and while gatekeeping can be real, I disagree that we should lower dress code standards to be inclusive. It's really not that hard to dress professionally. The definition of what's professional may have changed and that's fine. But we are professionals.

I think what we're saying is that a lot of summers have been acting unprofessional. That doesn't mean that they can never learn how to become professionals. Just means they aren't there yet.

[Anonymous User]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Many internships are unpaid, low paid, or require connections to get. Prior office experience is therefore a privilege, and the most socially inexperienced summers are victims of societal forces outside their control.

Right - agree about many internships. But fancy internships are not all that is out there and I was talking about about jobs. I worked part time throughout college to earn money (full-time in the summer) in office jobs, not internships, and I was not unusual among my peers, so was wondering if this is just not the norm now.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Many internships are unpaid, low paid, or require connections to get. Prior office experience is therefore a privilege, and the most socially inexperienced summers are victims of societal forces outside their control.

Right - agree about many internships. But fancy internships are not all that is out there and I was talking about about jobs. I worked part time throughout college to earn money (full-time in the summer) in office jobs, not internships, and I was not unusual among my peers, so was wondering if this is just not the norm now.

Today’s summers have been borrowing money from Uncle Sam interest free for over two years now. Why would they work when they have free money?

[BLPartner]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Many internships are unpaid, low paid, or require connections to get. Prior office experience is therefore a privilege, and the most socially inexperienced summers are victims of societal forces outside their control.

Right - agree about many internships. But fancy internships are not all that is out there and I was talking about about jobs. I worked part time throughout college to earn money (full-time in the summer) in office jobs, not internships, and I was not unusual among my peers, so was wondering if this is just not the norm now.

Today’s summers have been borrowing money from Uncle Sam interest free for over two years now. Why would they work when they have free money?

[Anonymous User]

I’m older too, but I think it depends on where you are and what you have access to. Even when I was in college, a lot of people still worked jobs like painting or retail or bartending/serving or lifeguarding in the summers. Of course, you can learn a lot of professionalism in some of those jobs as well, but it’s not office work, and it’s often shifts more than M-F 9-5.

Much more recently, when I clerked, my successor was a K-JD. They got hired the spring before they worked at a firm in town 2L summer and came by chambers during their SA to say hi. We all asked about how their SA was going and they talked about how tiring it was and how it was unlike anything they’d ever done before and the rest of us in chambers realized they were VERY K-JD and had never worked a full time office job before. I want to be clear that this person was extremely smart and was a good clerk and not at all unprofessional, but it just kind of reminded us how much it is to learn the first time you go through that experience.

[Res Ipsa Loquitter]

Serious question - I am an older associate and I also have noticed more cluelessness about professional norms in the recent summer classes and when I mention it, people say well for K-JD's, it's their first job. This surprises me, though, because don't people work in college anymore? Either during the year or in the summers? I worked in various office settings all through college so by the time I had my first full-time, non-summer job it was by no means my "first job." Granted, I went to college in a major city so there were lots of office job opportunities, but what are college doing in the summers now?

Many internships are unpaid, low paid, or require connections to get. Prior office experience is therefore a privilege, and the most socially inexperienced summers are victims of societal forces outside their control.

Right - agree about many internships. But fancy internships are not all that is out there and I was talking about about jobs. I worked part time throughout college to earn money (full-time in the summer) in office jobs, not internships, and I was not unusual among my peers, so was wondering if this is just not the norm now.

Today’s summers have been borrowing money from Uncle Sam interest free for over two years now. Why would they work when they have free money?

Hey there

[Anonymous User]

Saw a tiktok of someone getting no offered seemingly out of the blue so there's that. Maybe firms are being ever more slightly selective with their SA classes as they may have overhired. Although, fwiw, I'm a DPW SA and Neil Barr said we all got offers (of course that doesn't necessarily exclude cold offers I guess).

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.

Funny you listed these as your first two.

When I was a summer a long time ago, I had a 3:00 meeting with a senior scheduled. A midlevel called me at 2:30 and asked me to come to his office to talk about some Second Circuit scienter bullshit for "5, 10 minutes tops." You guessed it, he went on and on and fucking on, uninterrupted the whole time. When I felt like it was about 2:57, I pulled my phone out so I could confirm the time and hopefully get a single word in edgewise to tell him I had to email the senior about being late. Before I could say a word he saw me peep my phone and went "oH i'M soRrY, aM i bOrInG YoU?" and I tried to *calmly* explain that I just wanted to let the senior know. He snarled and went on for another 15 minutes. I then ran--ran--up to the senior's office where she looked thoroughly displeased about it being 3:15 and apologized about the previous meeting running way, way over.

This was like, two days before first half summer evaluations were due. Turns out he wrote about how insulted he was that I pulled out my phone, and she wrote about how insulted she was that I was late. My mid-summer review was the following week--two reviewers instead of one (the telltale sign of "we want a witness for this"). I was told of "multiple accusations of unprofessionalism that make us seriously doubt you as a full-time candidate." I tried to explain the situation in the middle of the biggest panic of my life. They said okay, blah blah, we'll need to see improvement. The next five weeks had enough stress for five years, convinced my career was dead in the womb if any toe was out of line or any work product was less than spotless.

I got the offer, and made it all the way to being a senior myself, promising forever to emulate the people who had supported me and be the opposite of the ones who were ready to throw me in the garbage. If I'm ever driving along and happen to see the funeral of that midlevel or that senior, I promise to take a shit on their casket.

I don't know the merits of what anyone ITT has said, and I am not attacking anyone in particular (including and especially the post I quoted), but a whole lot mentioned so far sounds like self-important horseshit from uptight mids/seniors who are way too stressed all the time to really evaluate how unpleasant they are day to day. Like a rancid Biglaw cocktail of "that's to be expected from someone who might be in their first office job", a dash of "wildly unfounded assumptions", and garnished with a few drops of "Honestly, who gives a fuck?" (Summers/0Ls: This is, if anything, a *nicer* cross-section of potential superiors than you will statistically find in the wild. That's why we're always talking about finding 2-3 people you get along with and really sticking with them as a sanity tactic.)

I promise you, formerly pleasant and amiable juniors often turn into wretched apparatchiks who forget what it's like to be 23 (query whether it's because they get beaten down or because you usually have to be pretty broken to do this for more than 3-4 years in the first place). And I promise you, sometimes you'll just run into the wrong egg. I've seen maybe 4 or 5 summers/juniors no-offered/fired for the Biglaw equivalent of a speeding ticket--catch the wrong psycho on the wrong day and you're an easy outlet for ire who can't defend yourself. It's not common, but it does happen.

Anyways, I hope everyone in this profession becomes more considerate. And I also hope I win the Mega Millions tonight.

[Anonymous User]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.

Funny you listed these as your first two.

When I was a summer a long time ago, I had a 3:00 meeting with a senior scheduled. A midlevel called me at 2:30 and asked me to come to his office to talk about some Second Circuit scienter bullshit for "5, 10 minutes tops." You guessed it, he went on and on and fucking on, uninterrupted the whole time. When I felt like it was about 2:57, I pulled my phone out so I could confirm the time and hopefully get a single word in edgewise to tell him I had to email the senior about being late. Before I could say a word he saw me peep my phone and went "oH i'M soRrY, aM i bOrInG YoU?" and I tried to *calmly* explain that I just wanted to let the senior know. He snarled and went on for another 15 minutes. I then ran--ran--up to the senior's office where she looked thoroughly displeased about it being 3:15 and apologized about the previous meeting running way, way over.

This was like, two days before first half summer evaluations were due. Turns out he wrote about how insulted he was that I pulled out my phone, and she wrote about how insulted she was that I was late. My mid-summer review was the following week--two reviewers instead of one (the telltale sign of "we want a witness for this"). I was told of "multiple accusations of unprofessionalism that make us seriously doubt you as a full-time candidate." I tried to explain the situation in the middle of the biggest panic of my life. They said okay, blah blah, we'll need to see improvement. The next five weeks had enough stress for five years, convinced my career was dead in the womb if any toe was out of line or any work product was less than spotless.

I got the offer, and made it all the way to being a senior myself, promising forever to emulate the people who had supported me and be the opposite of the ones who were ready to throw me in the garbage. If I'm ever driving along and happen to see the funeral of that midlevel or that senior, I promise to take a shit on their casket.

I don't know the merits of what anyone ITT has said, and I am not attacking anyone in particular (including and especially the post I quoted), but a whole lot mentioned so far sounds like self-important horseshit from uptight mids/seniors who are way too stressed all the time to really evaluate how unpleasant they are day to day. Like a rancid Biglaw cocktail of "that's to be expected from someone who might be in their first office job", a dash of "wildly unfounded assumptions", and garnished with a few drops of "Honestly, who gives a fuck?" (Summers/0Ls: This is, if anything, a *nicer* cross-section of potential superiors than you will statistically find in the wild. That's why we're always talking about finding 2-3 people you get along with and really sticking with them as a sanity tactic.)

I promise you, formerly pleasant and amiable juniors often turn into wretched apparatchiks who forget what it's like to be 23 (query whether it's because they get beaten down or because you usually have to be pretty broken to do this for more than 3-4 years in the first place). And I promise you, sometimes you'll just run into the wrong egg. I've seen maybe 4 or 5 summers/juniors no-offered/fired for the Biglaw equivalent of a speeding ticket--catch the wrong psycho on the wrong day and you're an easy outlet for ire who can't defend yourself. It's not common, but it does happen.

Anyways, I hope everyone in this profession becomes more considerate. And I also hope I win the Mega Millions tonight.

I'm one of the associates complaining about summers and I just want to make it clear that I would never make a peep about any individual summer, let alone put anything in a formal review. I've been careful to avoid specifics that could identify anyone. Maybe I'm uptight but I'm not the asshole those associates were.

[BLPartner]

What are some examples of cluelessness about professional norms y'all are seeing? Not talking about racist, sexist etc. types of egregious comments and behavior.

From my firm and stories from friends at other firms:
- Being late to meetings with partners and supervising associates.
- Going on their phone during the above meetings.

Funny you listed these as your first two.

When I was a summer a long time ago, I had a 3:00 meeting with a senior scheduled. A midlevel called me at 2:30 and asked me to come to his office to talk about some Second Circuit scienter bullshit for "5, 10 minutes tops." You guessed it, he went on and on and fucking on, uninterrupted the whole time. When I felt like it was about 2:57, I pulled my phone out so I could confirm the time and hopefully get a single word in edgewise to tell him I had to email the senior about being late. Before I could say a word he saw me peep my phone and went "oH i'M soRrY, aM i bOrInG YoU?" and I tried to *calmly* explain that I just wanted to let the senior know. He snarled and went on for another 15 minutes. I then ran--ran--up to the senior's office where she looked thoroughly displeased about it being 3:15 and apologized about the previous meeting running way, way over.

This was like, two days before first half summer evaluations were due. Turns out he wrote about how insulted he was that I pulled out my phone, and she wrote about how insulted she was that I was late. My mid-summer review was the following week--two reviewers instead of one (the telltale sign of "we want a witness for this"). I was told of "multiple accusations of unprofessionalism that make us seriously doubt you as a full-time candidate." I tried to explain the situation in the middle of the biggest panic of my life. They said okay, blah blah, we'll need to see improvement. The next five weeks had enough stress for five years, convinced my career was dead in the womb if any toe was out of line or any work product was less than spotless.

I got the offer, and made it all the way to being a senior myself, promising forever to emulate the people who had supported me and be the opposite of the ones who were ready to throw me in the garbage. If I'm ever driving along and happen to see the funeral of that midlevel or that senior, I promise to take a shit on their casket.

I don't know the merits of what anyone ITT has said, and I am not attacking anyone in particular (including and especially the post I quoted), but a whole lot mentioned so far sounds like self-important horseshit from uptight mids/seniors who are way too stressed all the time to really evaluate how unpleasant they are day to day. Like a rancid Biglaw cocktail of "that's to be expected from someone who might be in their first office job", a dash of "wildly unfounded assumptions", and garnished with a few drops of "Honestly, who gives a fuck?" (Summers/0Ls: This is, if anything, a *nicer* cross-section of potential superiors than you will statistically find in the wild. That's why we're always talking about finding 2-3 people you get along with and really sticking with them as a sanity tactic.)

I promise you, formerly pleasant and amiable juniors often turn into wretched apparatchiks who forget what it's like to be 23 (query whether it's because they get beaten down or because you usually have to be pretty broken to do this for more than 3-4 years in the first place). And I promise you, sometimes you'll just run into the wrong egg. I've seen maybe 4 or 5 summers/juniors no-offered/fired for the Biglaw equivalent of a speeding ticket--catch the wrong psycho on the wrong day and you're an easy outlet for ire who can't defend yourself. It's not common, but it does happen.

Anyways, I hope everyone in this profession becomes more considerate. And I also hope I win the Mega Millions tonight.

Ugh. This is awful.