IBR discussion Forum

[vanwinkle]

The question is whether the amount owed at the ten years would be comprised of proportionate parts private and federal loans, or whether it would just be the federal loans left by operation of application of your loan payments during those 10 years.

IBR only covers federal loans, not private loans. However, with the broad availability of GradPlus loans, there is no reason to be taking out private loans to pay for law school for 99% of students.

[ps494]

I don't think IBR is a very compelling reason to stop considering scholarships.

I think it is in a very specific set of circumstances (when choosing between a T14 and a much lower-ranked school, and when you're sure you want to do PI when you graduate). The T14 will give you much better chances at the most desirable PI jobs and the IBR will make your debt manageable for 10yr and then forgive the rest.

I wouldn't recommend IBR as a solution in all circumstances, but there is at least one scenario where I did use it to justify turning down big scholarships at lower-ranked schools, and where I would recommend the same strategy to others.

I'm also reading, on less reputable sites, of the difficulty of getting a government job even from a T14. It just seems like a reall hard thing to bank on all around. Also, by my calculation, best case scenario was you save 37k. It doesn't exactly slam the scales down to one side in a cost-benefit analysis. You may turn down a 1/2 tuition scholarship with that in mind, I guess.

Really? I assume that it's difficult to get a position at the U.S. Attorney's Office or Manhattan's DA's office, but I heard that it's not that hard to land a job at a DA's office in mid-size cities in the Midwest (i.e., Cleveland, Indianapolis, St. Louis, etc.) with a degree even from a tier 2. And it certainly can't be too difficult to get a job at a DA's office some of the more rural towns. You just need to demonstrate to the office (through clinics, internships/externships, and moot court) that you're passionate about this area of law. Am I being too optimistic?

[YCrevolution]

..

[OperaSoprano]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

[emilybeth]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

Good, less competition for those of us who would still do it if it paid half of what it does now.

[The Brainalist]

Really? I assume that it's difficult to get a position at the U.S. Attorney's Office or Manhattan's DA's office, but I heard that it's not that hard to land a job at a DA's office in mid-size cities in the Midwest (i.e., Cleveland, Indianapolis, St. Louis, etc.) with a degree even from a tier 2. And it certainly can't be too difficult to get a job at a DA's office some of the more rural towns. You just need to demonstrate to the office (through clinics, internships/externships, and moot court) that you're passionate about this area of law. Am I being too optimistic?

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

I qualified my statement later by recognizing that these are people who tried to pursue these things as back-up plans once biglaw failed. I don't know how hard it would be otherwise, but you may have a hard time convincing a place that usually hires from the local bread and butter school to take a Harvard grad seriously. You could get home-towned, is what I'm getting at.

[The Brainalist]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

You'll probably be sending a lot more people to jail as a public defender. That's pretty badass, though.

[ps494]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

Good, less competition for those of us who would still do it if it paid half of what it does now.

+1000000

[OperaSoprano]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

Good, less competition for those of us who would still do it if it paid half of what it does now.

I mean no disparagement toward the prosecutors themselves, as my favorite law school professor took that path before coming to academia. I just would not be able to do it personally. I am also a PI hopeful, however. Fingers crossed for all of us.

[OperaSoprano]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

You'll probably be sending a lot more people to jail as a public defender. That's pretty badass, though.

Everyone wants to go the DA route. I don't know whether I'd be effective at it, but I'd much sooner be a public defender. I guess I have strong feelings about this.

[emilybeth]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

Good, less competition for those of us who would still do it if it paid half of what it does now.

I mean no disparagement toward the prosecutors themselves, as my favorite law school professor took that path before coming to academia. I just would not be able to do it personally. I am also a PI hopeful, however. Fingers crossed for all of us.

That's fair. I used to think I couldn't ever be a PD, but teaching in Oakland's juvenile hall certainly made me consider just how crucial the job can be sometimes. The criminal justice system in theory is an entirely different animal in practice.

[ps494]

No, although you sometimes will need to show why you want to live in an area you have no discernable ties to. The thing that drives a lot of people away is that it's often long hours, with sometimes less-than-pleasant clientele, and with pretty low pay (for a lawyer).

And there is always the fact that you have to prosecute people. I wouldn't do it if it paid more than biglaw. Public defense FTW.

You'll probably be sending a lot more people to jail as a public defender. That's pretty badass, though.

Everyone wants to go the DA route. I don't know whether I'd be effective at it, but I'd much sooner be a public defender. I guess I have strong feelings about this.

No, everyone wants biglaw.

[OperaSoprano]

No, everyone wants biglaw.

argh, credited.

[ps494]

Does anyone have any idea how much can law students typically take our in federal loans? Also, can federal loans only be used for specific school related items (i.e. books, tuition, etc.) or can you spend on anything you want?

[vanwinkle]

Does anyone have any idea how much can law students typically take our in federal loans? Also, can federal loans only be used for specific school related items (i.e. books, tuition, etc.) or can you spend on anything you want?

The amount you can qualify for will depend on your school. Essentially, you should qualify for federal loans (even if you don't qualify for Stafford, you should still qualify for GradPlus for as much as is appropriate) up to an amount determined by your school to be the total costs of tuition/fees + estimated cost-of-living (COL) expenses.

The COL estimate will be calcuated by the school based on the costs of living in the area around the school, so for places with a higher COL your total loan amounts will be larger. This money should be sufficient to cover everything you need while you're in school (rent, food, transportation, books, student health insurance, etc.) but it's a fixed amount and you can decide how to spend it as you see fit. If you can find a really cheap place to live then that gives you more money for food, if you eat really cheap that gives you more money for other things, etc. It's just a lump sum and you're supposed to make it last until the end of the semester as you see fit, or cover any shortfall yourself.

You can spend it on anything you want, but keep in mind this is money you're borrowing at up to 8.5% interest, so you shouldn't just go randomly blowing it on things.

[ps494]

Does anyone have any idea how much can law students typically take our in federal loans? Also, can federal loans only be used for specific school related items (i.e. books, tuition, etc.) or can you spend on anything you want?

The amount you can qualify for will depend on your school. Essentially, you should qualify for federal loans (even if you don't qualify for Stafford, you should still qualify for GradPlus for as much as is appropriate) up to an amount determined by your school to be the total costs of tuition/fees + estimated cost-of-living (COL) expenses.

The COL estimate will be calcuated by the school based on the costs of living in the area around the school, so for places with a higher COL your total loan amounts will be larger. This money should be sufficient to cover everything you need while you're in school (rent, food, transportation, books, student health insurance, etc.) but it's a fixed amount and you can decide how to spend it as you see fit. If you can find a really cheap place to live then that gives you more money for food, if you eat really cheap that gives you more money for other things, etc. It's just a lump sum and you're supposed to make it last until the end of the semester as you see fit, or cover any shortfall yourself.

You can spend it on anything you want, but keep in mind this is money you're borrowing at up to 8.5% interest, so you shouldn't just go randomly blowing it on things.

Are you sure this is right? During my undergrad, I would qualified for a certain amount of federal loans, but they did not cover my entire tuition. However, the amount I could barrow did increase each year, because I think it was determined that I was less of a risk to default.

[YCrevolution]

..

[ps494]

Ok I get it, but something about IBR that still doesn't make sense is that the monthly payments are based on income and not how much you owe. For example, someone with a 50k salary and 80k in debt has the exact same monthly payments as someone with a 50k salary and 150k in debt. It seems like it would be prudent to take out as much debt as possible, because you will still have the same monthly payments and all your debt will all be wiped clean at 10 years (25 years for non-government). Also, why would you even care about a 20k scholarship, because again, you will still have the same monthly payments. Am I missing something?

[09042014]

Ok I get, but something about IBR that doesn't make sense is that the monthly payments are based on income and not how much you owe. For example, someone with a 50k salary and 80k in debt has the exact same monthly payments as someone with a 50k salary and 150k in debt. It seems like it would be prudent to take out as much debt as possible, because you will still have the same monthly payments and all your debt will all be wiped clean at 10 years (25 years for non-government).

If you know for sure you want PI why not. But it takes a really crappy salary for life to rely on IBR for the 25 year non-gov option. If you aren't going government, you better plan on paying it all back.

[bluejayk]

Pfft, 10 years is nothing!

[vanwinkle]

Are you sure this is right? During my undergrad, I would qualified for a certain amount of federal loans, but they did not cover my entire tuition. However, the amount I could barrow did increase each year, because I think it was determined that I was less of a risk to default.

GradPlus loans are loans specifically created for graduate students (such as law students) that 1) are federal loans and 2) cover the difference between any other financial aid you receive (such as scholarships or Stafford loans) and the total cost of tuition/fees + COL.

As long as you do not have any current defaults on any debts, you should be eligible for GradPlus loans to the full necessary amount.

[Veritas]

soooo if you know going in that you want gov't (maybe after doing a clerkship, if that's an option) would it be suggested that you take the best school without as much concern for the debt. "Better" schools meaning ones in the 15-20 range - maybe a T14 if I sneak in.

[vanwinkle]

soooo if you know going in that you want gov't (maybe after doing a clerkship, if that's an option) would it be suggested that you take the best school without as much concern for the debt. "Better" schools meaning ones in the 15-20 range - maybe a T14 if I sneak in.

I would certainly agree with this and it's what I'm doing. T14 at near-sticker (I got them to give me token $, but it really doesn't make much of a dent) and using the school's massive public service resources to make connections while I'm attending.

You can certainly do a clerkship and use IBR while you're in it; however, the time you're doing it won't count toward the 10 years of PI work from what I understand. The clock on that will just start after you're out of the clerkship and into the PI job.

[Veritas]

soooo if you know going in that you want gov't (maybe after doing a clerkship, if that's an option) would it be suggested that you take the best school without as much concern for the debt. "Better" schools meaning ones in the 15-20 range - maybe a T14 if I sneak in.

I would certainly agree with this and it's what I'm doing. T14 at near-sticker (I got them to give me token $, but it really doesn't make much of a dent) and using the school's massive public service resources to make connections while I'm attending.

You can certainly do a clerkship and use IBR while you're in it; however, the time you're doing it won't count toward the 10 years of PI work from what I understand. The clock on that will just start after you're out of the clerkship and into the PI job.

Right, I would take the 1 year for the clerkship though - hopefully launch a better gov't career.

IBR is comforting and nauseating at the same time.

[Anonymous Loser]

soooo if you know going in that you want gov't (maybe after doing a clerkship, if that's an option) would it be suggested that you take the best school without as much concern for the debt. "Better" schools meaning ones in the 15-20 range - maybe a T14 if I sneak in.

I would certainly agree with this and it's what I'm doing. T14 at near-sticker (I got them to give me token $, but it really doesn't make much of a dent) and using the school's massive public service resources to make connections while I'm attending.

You can certainly do a clerkship and use IBR while you're in it; however, the time you're doing it won't count toward the 10 years of PI work from what I understand. The clock on that will just start after you're out of the clerkship and into the PI job.

No. What gave you the idea that a clerkship was not a qualifying public service position?

To be eligible, a borrower must be employed full-time by a "public service organization." The definition of public service organization includes "a federal, state, local, or Tribal government organization." Being directly employed by the judiciary of the federal government (or a state government) clearly qualifies. See Federal Perkins Loan Program, Federal Family Education Loan Program, and William D. Ford Federal Direct Loan Program; Final Rule, 73 Fed. Reg. 63,231, 63,242 (Oct. 23, 2008) (clarifying definition of public service organization).