Penn State / Dickinson. What to think?! Forum

[iChaseH16]

So recently Penn State Law and Dickinson have decided to become two separate law schools all operating under Penn State's name. The question here is what happens to both Dickinson and Penn State Law's ranking? In 2014 Penn State Dickinson was ranked pretty well at 51. However, what happens now? The rankings aren't going to be out in time for me have before I have to make a decision. I know rankings aren't everything, but I just want to know what in the hell happens now?! Do they both go down in rankings? If so, by how much? Does one go down and the other stay around 51? Really, I'm deciding between Temple and Dickinson...and it's tough. Please answer my question about the rankings then you can rant about choosing Temple over Dickinson or vice versa. I really appreciate your answers!

[BigZuck]

Why do you care about rankings so much?

[03152016]

op, your post encapsulates everything wrong with law school admissions
rankings should have literally no bearing on your decision

of the utmost importance:
full-time, long-term, jd-required employment, excluding solos
short-term, part-time, or non-professional employment, or outright unemployment
biglaw + a3 fed clerkship
geography: where the school places, where you're targeting, your existing ties
true cost of attendance
scholarship retention rate
mandatory repayment of scholarships upon drop-out/transfer

very important:
health of job market in area/competitiveness/number of feeder schools/class size
tuition cost inflation
lrap program
school-funded rate
placement in your practice area/availability of those jobs in area
financial viability of institution (only applies to a handful of schools, but a crucial factor where it does apply)
pi institutional support (summer funding, job fairs, et al) for pi gunners
transparency/level of disclosure/percentage of grads unknown
elite firm/pi placement
significant other

somewhat important:
administration/bureaucracy
lgbt-friendliness
availability of dual degree/accelerated/part-time programs
school's reputation among your targeted employers
what firms come to oci and mechanics of oci
quality of office of career services
source of job (oci/mass mail/referral/pre-law school job)
degree portability
acceptance to named program offering summer position

of non-negligible importance:
facilities
lifestyle in area
"fit"/campus culture
availability of housing
clinics offered
courses/concentrations offered, form of curriculum
journals and process of getting on them
graded vs p/f lrw
curve and grading system
course load
profs

not important
campus aesthetics
library size (lol usnwr just fucking lol)
scotus clerks (lol atl rankings just fucking lol)
all measures of student selectivity (including, but not limited to lsat 25/50/75, gpa 25/50/75, offer rate, bar pass rates), except where a significant downward trend is indicative of a problem relating to a relevant factor
yield
lay prestige
superlawyers
self-reported salary data
non 509/nalp/lst employment data
placement in "education/academia", "business", or other nebulous categories
where your non-lawyer parents/friends/mentors want you to go
name brand of ug

of negative importance:
rankings
specialty rankings

[banjo]

I pretty much agree with that list of selection factors. I'd move OCI mechanics (average # of screeners, preselect/lottery, etc.) up a category for people considering T14s, but that's about it.

[Sheriff]

Doesn't matter. You need to retake.

[phillywc]

Unless you are going to one of them for free and want to work in Philly (Temple) or Central PA (Penn State) don't go to either.

[FutureSuperLawyer]

I've looked at the websites for both Penn State and Dickinson and it certainly looks like all the prestigious programs are going to be at Penn State. In addition, I think applicants will prefer Penn State's location, surrounded by 100,000 other students, to Dickinson which is isolated. All Dickinson has to offer is "experiential" learning. But every law school, including penn state, offers this. In fact they've been offering it for years, they just called it clinics. So I expect Dickinson's rating to drop dramatically.

Dickinson also claims to offer students great training in "international law" but all this really does is show how out of touch Dickinson is with reality. A quick look at the school's employment outcomes (which overstates their success since it includes Penn State) shows they are not sending students to the kind of jobs with big law firms or the gov't where international law is relevant. You can see the data here: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

In fact there has been speculation that the university is planning to let Dickinson whither and die. There is a thoughtful analysis by a U. of Colorado law school professor here: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... -dickinson

[sublime]

..

[mvp99]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UthMHjoNyjA

[FSK]

Carlisle, where the one is, is such an incredibly boring town.

[BigZuck]

I've looked at the websites for both Penn State and Dickinson and it certainly looks like all the prestigious programs are going to be at Penn State. In addition, I think applicants will prefer Penn State's location, surrounded by 100,000 other students, to Dickinson which is isolated. All Dickinson has to offer is "experiential" learning. But every law school, including penn state, offers this. In fact they've been offering it for years, they just called it clinics. So I expect Dickinson's rating to drop dramatically.

Dickinson also claims to offer students great training in "international law" but all this really does is show how out of touch Dickinson is with reality. A quick look at the school's employment outcomes (which overstates their success since it includes Penn State) shows they are not sending students to the kind of jobs with big law firms or the gov't where international law is relevant. You can see the data here: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

In fact there has been speculation that the university is planning to let Dickinson whither and die. There is a thoughtful analysis by a U. of Colorado law school professor here: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... -dickinson

There's nothing prestigious at/about either

So this Dickinson place is going for the experiential AND international angles?

lol

[FutureSuperLawyer]

So this Dickinson place is going for the experiential AND international angles?

lol

Yes, although they seem to de-emphaizing the international angle these days on their website. Perhaps even they realized how ridiculous it was.

[thereelfeels]

I'm pretty sure PSU's old dean was really into pushing the international angle. He left a few years ago to start some sort of dual US/Chinese law school in Beijing, so maybe the focus on international stuff went with him.

[timbs4339]

It's likely that the Dickinson campus will be kept around because (1) Boomers get emotional about their law schools, (2) it's yummy fedgov pork for whatever state senator is in that district.

[Manhattan]

OP, just in case you weren't aware, prestigious experiential/international programs aren't the only thing that Penn State has going for it.

[NonTradLawHopeful]

I've looked at the websites for both Penn State and Dickinson and it certainly looks like all the prestigious programs are going to be at Penn State. In addition, I think applicants will prefer Penn State's location, surrounded by 100,000 other students, to Dickinson which is isolated. All Dickinson has to offer is "experiential" learning. But every law school, including penn state, offers this. In fact they've been offering it for years, they just called it clinics. So I expect Dickinson's rating to drop dramatically.

Dickinson also claims to offer students great training in "international law" but all this really does is show how out of touch Dickinson is with reality. A quick look at the school's employment outcomes (which overstates their success since it includes Penn State) shows they are not sending students to the kind of jobs with big law firms or the gov't where international law is relevant. You can see the data here: http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

In fact there has been speculation that the university is planning to let Dickinson whither and die. There is a thoughtful analysis by a U. of Colorado law school professor here: http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/201 ... -dickinson

Here are just my two cents. I lived in Carlisle when Dickinson first became apart of Penn State and have applied to both campuses this cycle.

The article cited by the Colorado professor is full of inaccuracies. Dickinson has a great reputation across PA and in DC. Penn State would have never spent $50 million doubling the size of Dickinson's law building if it was going to let it "whither and die". Dickinson chooses to limit its class to 75 students per year, which it has had every year. I don't know where the professor got 36 students from for last year, which is just false.

Splitting into two schools is not a very wild idea. Rutgers, Indiana, and UC (5 law schools) all have multiple, independently operating law schools. They will both be fine, and to answer the OPs question, will be ranked separately. But like everyone else said, the rankings should not be a factor in deciding between two schools to attend.

In my opinion, Dickinson's reputation across the state, and the fact it is the oldest law school in PA, I predict it will be the one with the stronger track record long term.