How bad is straight P's at H? Forum

[Starships]

K-JD, prestigious undergrad, law firm intern in college, and a good 1L summer job lined up (not at a big firm/ potential 2L employer). I was told by OCS that I would be a very good interviewer.

I wondering what kind of outcome someone with my profile my expect to have at EIP. Planning on bidding exclusively NY.

I am obviously focusing on doing better next semester, but given that I really felt like I gave it my all last time/ the professor's comments on my last semester exams in meetings have spanned the BS range from "Nothing missing substantively, only presentational issues" to "Everything was correct, it just didn't really stand out " (not kidding), I am convinced grading is somewhat arbitrary and feel like I need to look at what a worst case scenario of 10 P's would end up getting me.

Thanks for the input in advance.

[ph14]

K-JD, prestigious undergrad, law firm intern in college, and a good 1L summer job lined up (not at a big firm/ potential 2L employer). I was told by OCS that I would be a very good interviewer.

I wondering what kind of outcome someone with my profile my expect to have at EIP. Planning on bidding exclusively NY.

I am obviously focusing on doing better next semester, but given that I really felt like I gave it my all last time/ the professor's comments on my last semester exams in meetings have spanned the BS range from "Nothing missing substantively, only presentational issues" to "Everything was correct, it just didn't really stand out " (not kidding), I am convinced grading is somewhat arbitrary and feel like I need to look at what a worst case scenario of 10 P's would end up getting me.

Thanks for the input in advance.

1. Grading isn't random or arbitrary. Read some model answers and compare them to yours.
2. You most likely won't be screwed, though EIP won't be a walk in the park. Make sure to bid strategically. Talk to OCS.
3. Focus on pulling your grades up this semester.

[Starships]

On the first point, I took every available practice exam under timed conditions and had them looked over by others in my study group. I may very well have been overlooking things in the model answers, but it was certainly not due to not pouring over them. (Had access to DS's and H's for every class).

On the second part- could you specify what a non-walk in the park looks like? Do people like me a) strike out or b) get callbacks but not offers? What range of firms do they end up working at/ what kinds of firms would a conservative bidlist for someone like me center around (I supposed vault is somewhat useful here as a selectivity metric). Are people with straight P's supposed to mass-mail?

I spoke with OCS, and they were obviously sugar-coating things because their main concern was making sure I don't drop out. They made it sound like not a big deal at all.

[ph14]

On the first point, I took every available practice exam under timed conditions and had them looked over by others in my study group. I may very well have been overlooking things in the model answers, but it was certainly not due to not pouring over them. (Had access to DS's and H's for every class).

On the second part- could you specify what a non-walk in the park looks like? Do people like me a) strike out or b) get callbacks but not offers? What range of firms do they end up working at/ what kinds of firms would a conservative bidlist for someone like me center around (I supposed vault is somewhat useful here as a selectivity metric). Are people with straight P's supposed to mass-mail?

I spoke with OCS, and they were obviously sugar-coating things because their main concern was making sure I don't drop out. They made it sound like not a big deal at all.

1. That's good but obviously not working for you. I get that it is a tough situation, but you should not have an attitude that you did everything right and the reason that you didn't do well was because of arbitrary grading, etc. That's just not true and will inhibit you from identifying the issues you had and working towards addressing those issues.
2. I think it is relatively rare to strike out if you bid conservatively, though I wasn't in this position so I can't say for sure. I would worry about EIP after this semester, personally. I would mass mail too, since that can't hurt. I do know a couple people who had straight Ps who had V20 positions, but i'm not sure if their other stuff on their resume that might make them especially attractive candidates or not. It's not out of the question, at least.
3. OCS can help you out with a bid list. It's not necessarily just lower ranked Vault firms, because some of the higher ranked Vault firms have large class sizes.

[patogordo]

if you're targeting NYC exclusively i don't think you have anything to be freaked out about. just work on getting better grades this semester and then bid strategically come EIP.

[Starships]

I'm certainly not picky about prestige - I just want to know what the chances are that I will/ will not be able to get some V-100 in NY.

Definitely focused on grade improvement, attempted to take the easiest classes I could, and got an LRW partner who did much better than me first semester.

[ph14]

I'm certainly not picky about prestige - I just want to know what the chances are that I will/ will not be able to get some V-100 in NY.

Definitely focused on grade improvement, attempted to take the easiest classes I could, and got an LRW partner who did much better than me first semester.

Chances are reasonably high that you will be able to get some V-100 in NYC, though it is certainly not guaranteed. I think that's about the best answer anyone could possibly give you at this point.

[patogordo]

i think your chances of getting some NYC biglaw are pretty good, especially if you get some Hs in the spring. there are V100 firms with very large summer programs that aren't super grade-picky. i mean i wouldn't bet my life on it and i'd probably mass mail too. people w/ better grades than you strike out and people w/ straight Ps get selective firms. it's not an exact science. if OCS told you not to worry then i wouldn't worry.

[Shooter]

I think ph14 is generally correct. Overall, you will be fine. Even with 10 P's, you will be fine.

To be more specific, a walk in the park is when you're targeting NYC with more than 5 H's. You can do all sorts of ridiculous things during your interviews and callbacks and still end up at a top firm. A non-walk in the park is when you're targeting NYC with less than 2 H's. Your margin for error is much lower, meaning that you need to bid conservatively and nail your interviews (not by memorizing every fact about every firm, but by being as confident, professional and personable as possible).

To be even more specific, 10 P's is not likely to get you v10. With a strong interview, I would say it could land you somewhere in the top 25-50 firms. I have seen people with 2 H's get v10 in NY with your credentials. They were very polished during interviews. Your bidlist, assuming your transcript has fewer than 2 H's by year's end, should span the v100, concentrating on the 25-75 range.

Regarding exams, the responses from your professors indicate that your writing skills might be holding you back. Before you take your next round of finals, think seriously about structure and organization. Then, swing for the fences in terms of innovative (borderline crazy) legal analysis.

[Anonymous User]

Not to freak you out, but I was below median at HYS (not all P's) and had a single non-Vault offer after signing up for as many screeners as possible and mass mailing dozens of firms. I obviously landed on my feet, but if you have straight P's you cannot be complacent. There are people with straight P's who got V20 offers, but there are also people who struck out. Bidding conservatively in NYC goes without saying, but I would also start mass mailing like crazy beginning around July. And keep mass mailing and following up until you have an offer in hand. Most likely you will be okay, but nothing is guaranteed.

[Starships]

Wow- I am actually quite a bit freaked out. Were you in an especially tough recruiting year (relatively, like 2010)?

The disparity in answers here is especially disconcerting. The difference in essentially fine and what anonymous poster had to say seems extremely large.

Anybody else have experiences/ friends with experiences like this recently? Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

Wow- I am actually quite a bit freaked out. Were you in an especially tough recruiting year (relatively, like 2010)?

The disparity in answers here is especially disconcerting. The difference in essentially fine and what anonymous poster had to say seems extremely large.

Anybody else have experiences/ friends with experiences like this recently? Thanks in advance.

I am the earlier anon, and I did OCI last fall. As I said, don't freak out, but also don't be complacent. OCI is largely a crap shoot. Most likely you will get offers out of OCI if you bid very conservatively, but there is a chance that you won't. Hence I recommend that you mass mail/network/all that other stuff like your life depended on it until you have an offer in hand. It may very well be overkill, but this is one time where you don't want to take chances.

[Anonymous User]

Wow- I am actually quite a bit freaked out. Were you in an especially tough recruiting year (relatively, like 2010)?

The disparity in answers here is especially disconcerting. The difference in essentially fine and what anonymous poster had to say seems extremely large.

Anybody else have experiences/ friends with experiences like this recently? Thanks in advance.

I am the earlier anon, and I did OCI last fall. As I said, don't freak out, but also don't be complacent. OCI is largely a crap shoot. Most likely you will get offers out of OCI if you bid very conservatively, but there is a chance that you won't. Hence I recommend that you mass mail/network/all that other stuff like your life depended on it until you have an offer in hand. It may very well be overkill, but this is one time where you don't want to take chances.

Just as a counterpoint to the earlier anon, I was below median at one of H/S and had ~20 callbacks (across 4 separate markets and obviously didn't accept all) and ultimately 5+ offers. Outside of a few firms that are grade sensitive, the variation in OCI outcomes at HYS will often not be about grades. Know your resume and strengths/weaknesses and adjust accordingly. If you are K-JD with nothing special on your resume, mediocre to bad interviewing skills, and mediocre grades then you should be as proactive as you possibly can and really work hard. If you have even one year solid work experience and decent to good interview skills then you shouldn't really worry too much at all even if you get mediocre grades (obviously don't take things for granted, however).

[Mista Bojangles]

Average is a great place to be at HLS.

[ph14]

Edited upon request.

I disagree. It's not unheard of for someone to have a dramatic grade increase in spring semester. Keep your head down and keep working hard OP. Maybe you can decide to take your foot off the gas later, but don't do so until at least after 1L.

[094320]

..

[thuglyfe]

.

[ph14]

Edited upon Request.

I'm not sure that using an outlier, such as Professor Nesson, is a strong rebuttal to the proposition that grades are not arbitrary.

[thuglyfe]

.

[Mista Bojangles]

K-JD, prestigious undergrad, law firm intern in college, and a good 1L summer job lined up (not at a big firm/ potential 2L employer). I was told by OCS that I would be a very good interviewer.

I wondering what kind of outcome someone with my profile my expect to have at EIP. Planning on bidding exclusively NY.

I am obviously focusing on doing better next semester, but given that I really felt like I gave it my all last time/ the professor's comments on my last semester exams in meetings have spanned the BS range from "Nothing missing substantively, only presentational issues" to "Everything was correct, it just didn't really stand out " (not kidding), I am convinced grading is somewhat arbitrary and feel like I need to look at what a worst case scenario of 10 P's would end up getting me.

Thanks for the input in advance.

1. Grading isn't random or arbitrary. Read some model answers and compare them to yours.

this is bullshit, actually. the model answers are cream of the crop. if you really want to see the arbitrariness, go through the various outline banks showing H answers versus P answers. There are clearly H answers (of which there are few) and answers that are shit pure shit (of which there are few, if any) but the vast majority are fungible. lol at nesson's grading not being arbitrary.

also, http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/grading- ... ularities/

Sweet first post bro. What outline banks are you looking at anyway that display P exams? I've never seen a P exam on an outline bank.

[BelugaWhale]

.

[Mista Bojangles]

Huh? I stand by what I wrote here. As someone who definitely belongs in that non-brilliant generic mass, I'm pretty familiar with how it looks and feels. I'm just giving a straight picture of my experience with it, because I feel like that's what anonymous internet forums are for

[thuglyfe]

.

[thuglyfe]

.

[soj]

if you're gonna call someone a creep, don't say things like

i don't have bad grades. i got good grades without even trying. it should be clear to you that i know you.

do you realize how much you've outted yourself on this board?