"I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..." Forum

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keg411

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by keg411 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:58 pm

rayiner wrote:At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.
This essentially sums up my experience so far, especially the "luck and tactics" part. When you're hitting the pace, life is good.

I'll say this, though. While I get stressed sometimes (mostly about the giant time-suck that is my non-billable work), I really don't hate BigLaw. But I haven't had to work for Tyrannical Mid-Level/Crazy Partner or had a case that just crushed me in terms of hours, so I'm just generally happy that I've been on the "lucky" side so far.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by jd20132013 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:59 pm

keg411 wrote:
rayiner wrote:At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.
This essentially sums up my experience so far, especially the "luck and tactics" part. When you're hitting the pace, life is good.

I'll say this, though. While I get stressed sometimes (mostly about the giant time-suck that is my non-billable work), I really don't hate BigLaw. But I haven't had to work for Tyrannical Mid-Level/Crazy Partner or had a case that just crushed me in terms of hours, so I'm just generally happy that I've been on the "lucky" side so far.
How many years in are you? Just curious

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by rpupkin » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:59 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
manu6926 wrote: No. Getting a phd in econ and seeking to enter academia, or starting a business or whatever.
oh my god, what on EARTH does working biglaw have to do with getting a PhD in econ and entering academia? You shouldn't be paying for a PhD in anything, anyway.
Thanks, A. Nony, for expressing your exasperation in the form of a post. I feared that thread-locking was imminent.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by jbagelboy » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:00 pm

Lincoln wrote:
NeedAnExit wrote:I worked in consulting prior to law school and still had a lot of difficulty with biglaw.

1. I suspect this is (or will be) true for many of you as well: I always viewed consulting as a temporary thing. I deferred law school to go, so I knew that my time there was limited, and that I was moving onto something else that I wanted to do. I also didn't have any debt. In the difficult weeks I had in consulting, I always took solace in the fact that I could walk away and I'd be fine, both financially and career-wise. I felt very trapped in biglaw because I have lots of debt and it seems very difficult (at least in litigation) and time consuming to get a new, non-biglaw job.

2. I don't actually know what the payoff is, vis-a-vis not going to law school at all. Yes, I get paid a lot, but I still have -90k net worth. In addition, related to (1) I don't know when, if ever, I would have exit options that I would enjoy.

I recognize that (1) and (2) are not specific to the job, but they are specific to the situation that leads you to biglaw. For me, these two have been the two greatest added sources of stress.

3. In consulting, I was always working on one engagement at a time, and worked full-time on that engagement. Even though I had multiple bosses on that engagement, they communicated regularly and knew what I was doing, and appreciated that I couldn't get their task done because I was there until 1am doing something for another part of the project. Now, I'm staffed on 5-6 matters at a time, and sometimes, they all blow up. You can communicate to the partners that you have these deadlines (as they expect you to do), but they really don't care. Their appreciation of the fact that you have other stuff to do is merely theoretical.

4. Related to (3), I used to have end dates. I might be working hard for 5-6 weeks, but then I'd get a week or two of downtime before the next thing. Here, I have only taken Christmas and New Years off since early December. I've averaged 8 hours billed a day since then, and it's only going to stop when I quit.

5. The people really are worse, especially at handling stress and remaining professional in times of stress. I don't know why, but it is definitely true.

6. It's more solitary than my previous job. There's very little sense of camaraderie.

It's not that I ever thought that it would be pleasant. I just thought that it may be worth it. After being in it for half a year, and understanding better both the lifestyle as well as the payoff, I no longer think this.
Quality post. Congrats on the clerkship. Leverage it into something better.
Thank you for posting.

This makes sense, and sounds comparable to my experience - although I was typically tasked on 3 projects coterminously, with more weight going to one some weeks than others (and obviously when at a client office for a week, that project took precedence).

I have yet to experience biglaw as a full time associate, but (3) sounds disturbing. My various project managers would conference each week to discuss how to distribute my hours, and that was crucial to meeting everyone's deadlines. Still, parts of the week did "blow up" as I'm sure they would for you. Example: client monthly reports due the second to last day of each month, which would require 30-40 hours of writing and data analysis - if the data arrived too late from the client, could mean a few very late nights near the deadline to get the reports out. Still, when this happened, my other managers knew and accommodated. It sounds like the situation at your law firm is particularly unforgiving in this area from all your prior descriptions. I'll have to figure out a way to deal with this.

I feel what you're saying about the "end" dates and the sensation of temporariness that helps get you through long days. I knew I was probably headed to law school too during my time in consulting. I can appreciate the relative "Freedom" of being able to quit and just go back to grad school vs. having this be "the career" and literally requiring the salary to make loan payments.

Sucks to be poor in America, folks. Rich parents FTW.

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Post by manu6926 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:01 pm

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Last edited by manu6926 on Sun May 25, 2014 10:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by rpupkin » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:06 pm

manu6926 wrote: I was listing some examples. Clerkship is another one. No 0L, well at least not me and people who I know, considers biglaw their lifetime career that they will enjoy.
By the way, for entering legal academia, an economics phd does help

Way too many people can't really read.
Yeah, I can't really read. If I could, I'd get out of this sweatshop by lateraling into an economics phd program.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by keg411 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:06 pm

jd20132013 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
rayiner wrote:At least in litigation, 8:30 is not an "early night" in general. I worked at an NYC V10 before clerking, and the office was largely cleared out by 7:30 pm. If you don't waste a lot of time, the ideal "2,000 hour" schedule is 165 hours a month, or 9-7 with 75% efficiency 5 days a week. Of course, you'll rarely be lucky enough to have such a steady stream of work as to hit that ideal pace. Happiness in big law is about maneuvering to hit that pace. It involves both luck and tactics.
This essentially sums up my experience so far, especially the "luck and tactics" part. When you're hitting the pace, life is good.

I'll say this, though. While I get stressed sometimes (mostly about the giant time-suck that is my non-billable work), I really don't hate BigLaw. But I haven't had to work for Tyrannical Mid-Level/Crazy Partner or had a case that just crushed me in terms of hours, so I'm just generally happy that I've been on the "lucky" side so far.
How many years in are you? Just curious
I'm only in the first year (a little over 6 months), so I'm not under any delusion that things aren't going to get worse if/when my luck runs out.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by jd20132013 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:07 pm

Oh definitely wasn't trying to rain on your parade...was actually kind of hoping you were 2d or 3rd year :)

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by sublime » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:10 pm

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:11 pm

manu6926 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
manu6926 wrote:No. Getting a phd in econ and seeking to enter academia, or starting a business or whatever.
oh my god, what on EARTH does working biglaw have to do with getting a PhD in econ and entering academia? You shouldn't be paying for a PhD in anything, anyway.
I was listing some examples. Clerkship is another one. No 0L, well at least not me and people who I know, considers biglaw their lifetime career that they will enjoy.
By the way, for entering legal academia, an economics phd does help

Way too many people can't really read.
Way too many people in this thread don't really know what they're talking about. Working biglaw has nothing to do with getting a clerkship, and for the vast majority of people clerking is a term position, not a career. Doing a PhD in econ can help you get into legal academia, but working biglaw has nothing to do with getting a PhD in econ. You suggested that the money from biglaw would give you the financial stability to get an econ PhD and enter academia, but you shouldn't pay for a PhD program and whether you can support yourself financially has nothing to do with whether you'll get an academic job.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by IAFG » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:19 pm

rpupkin wrote:
manu6926 wrote: I was listing some examples. Clerkship is another one. No 0L, well at least not me and people who I know, considers biglaw their lifetime career that they will enjoy.
By the way, for entering legal academia, an economics phd does help

Way too many people can't really read.
Yeah, I can't really read. If I could, I'd get out of this sweatshop by lateraling into an economics phd program.
You should get in on my food truck.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by El Pollito » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:28 pm

IAFG wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
manu6926 wrote: I was listing some examples. Clerkship is another one. No 0L, well at least not me and people who I know, considers biglaw their lifetime career that they will enjoy.
By the way, for entering legal academia, an economics phd does help

Way too many people can't really read.
Yeah, I can't really read. If I could, I'd get out of this sweatshop by lateraling into an economics phd program.
You should get in on my food truck.
Turd vetoed.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by kalvano » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:35 pm

This thread is so fantastic.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by PepperJack » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:40 pm

IAFG wrote:I thought the hours would be the problem. I see people are focusing on that here too.

The problem isn't the hours. It's not. It's not at all. Let go of thinking that's the bad part. Stop trying to rationalize by saying you're fine with the hours. The problem is the work and the people.
Sorry to backtrack but I was wondering about this. What is it about the people relative to other high pressure fields - is this practice group specific? I'm not a 0L - 2L starting an SA. I found people in law school are easier to get along with than outside of law school, but I go to a law school where the majority of people are smart and nice.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by rpupkin » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:48 pm

PepperJack wrote:
IAFG wrote:I thought the hours would be the problem. I see people are focusing on that here too.

The problem isn't the hours. It's not. It's not at all. Let go of thinking that's the bad part. Stop trying to rationalize by saying you're fine with the hours. The problem is the work and the people.
Sorry to backtrack but I was wondering about this. What is it about the people relative to other high pressure fields - is this practice group specific? I'm not a 0L - 2L starting an SA. I found people in law school are easier to get along with than outside of law school, but I go to a law school where the majority of people are smart and nice.
What firms do the smart and nice students go to? Follow them. That way, you have a better chance of working at a smart and nice firm. But irrespective of the particular firm you work at this summer, the important thing is to post in August about how firm life seemed really chill and how you were surprised how substantive and interesting your assignments were. Oh, and also mention how the associates you hung out with loved the firm and seemed really happy. Pay it forward, PepperJack. Pay it forward.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by ChardPennington » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:51 pm

manu6926 wrote:
dead head wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote: Now you're just proving what kind of people work in big law.
Apparently I'm the minority since everyone else seems to have thought it was going to be really enjoyable, and believes that everyone else who would like to put in a few years thinks it's also going to be great fun (even though they only want to have this super-fun experience for a few years, presumably because they don't know if their hearts can take it).

There's a reason the phrase "golden handcuffs" has been around for a while.
No, most 0Ls with some work experience including myself have never thought that working in biglaw would be enjoyable. As others said, biglaw would give me the financial stability with which I can pursue enjoyable, rewarding careers.
If you're doing litigation, I have bad news.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by 84651846190 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:21 am

Desert Fox wrote:
patogordo wrote:contemplating asking the patent pros firm i worked for 1L if they're still interested
I wish I did prosecution.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Tiago Splitter » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:24 am

rayiner wrote: The 0L's are missing the point ITT. Its not about 0L's thinking that big law will be fun. Its 0L's signing up for enough debt where they have to work big law for several years. 0L's are optimistic about the extent to which they will even survive that long.

You see it in the employment stats threads. People treat big law as an outcome that justifies the investment. But its not really true if you burn out within three years, which half of people will do (statistically).
Shit dude you were pushing this as a 3L. Yours is one of the more shocking 180 degree turns you'll see, and should definitely give 0L's pause.
rayiner wrote:
ryemanhattan wrote:Personally, I'm having a hard time making the numbers work. Northwestern is a great school... that will put me a quarter million dollars in debt. If we calculate interest at 7%, that's a bit more than 20k/ year to start with. Even if can count on a starting salary of $160k how the hell does this make any financial sense? It will take me a decade of law school and then 70 hour weeks to break even. Even in the best case scenario (7% interest is a bit kind and BigLaw isn't a certainty, even out of NU) I look at this as voluntarily entering a life of indentured servitude.
For the typical person, who graduates from NU, gets big law, flames out after three years and down-shifts into a corporate job, the investment is still worthwhile. What would be your career trajectory without going to law school? Even most college-educated people will never earn more than $100k without some sort of graduate degree, especially the typical law school applicant who doesn't have an engineering degree. $20k/year in interest is a lot, but the typical law school applicant is going to earn more than $20k/year more post-JD than he would have without the degree.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Old Gregg » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:25 am

it's alright, but you have to like what you do and the people you work with. if you don't, the hours no matter high or low will be intolerable in any industry.

and finding that place that has the work you want to do and the people you'd like to work with is hard, and definitely not decipherable from a 20 minute screener plus a callback interview and follow-up.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Lincoln » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:26 am

IAFG wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
manu6926 wrote: I was listing some examples. Clerkship is another one. No 0L, well at least not me and people who I know, considers biglaw their lifetime career that they will enjoy.
By the way, for entering legal academia, an economics phd does help

Way too many people can't really read.
Yeah, I can't really read. If I could, I'd get out of this sweatshop by lateraling into an economics phd program.
You should get in on my food truck.
I'll take you up on that. Seriously.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Old Gregg » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:30 am

Also, I'm not sure there are many industries that are "superior." If you want to take ownership of your life, be your own boss, etc., that isn't going to happen as an investment banker, or a management consultant.. or radiologist... or private equity dude... or hedge fund dude... or whatever job people here fetishize. they will all have grueling aspects that well make you question any paycheck. If you want to take ownership of your life, be your own boss, etc. you have to be super aggressive, entrepreneurial and pro-actively create the solution on your own: Start your own company.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by 84651846190 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:32 am

zweitbester wrote:it's alright, but you have to like what you do and the people you work with. if you don't, the hours no matter high or low will be intolerable in any industry.
This cannot be repeated enough.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:51 am

Leaving office at 10 pm.

Actually enjoying the project I'm on right now though.

Maybe a bit Stockholm syndromey

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:55 am

NeedAnExit wrote:I worked in consulting prior to law school and still had a lot of difficulty with biglaw.

1. I suspect this is (or will be) true for many of you as well: I always viewed consulting as a temporary thing. I deferred law school to go, so I knew that my time there was limited, and that I was moving onto something else that I wanted to do. I also didn't have any debt. In the difficult weeks I had in consulting, I always took solace in the fact that I could walk away and I'd be fine, both financially and career-wise. I felt very trapped in biglaw because I have lots of debt and it seems very difficult (at least in litigation) and time consuming to get a new, non-biglaw job.

2. I don't actually know what the payoff is, vis-a-vis not going to law school at all. Yes, I get paid a lot, but I still have -90k net worth. In addition, related to (1) I don't know when, if ever, I would have exit options that I would enjoy.

I recognize that (1) and (2) are not specific to the job, but they are specific to the situation that leads you to biglaw. For me, these two have been the two greatest added sources of stress.

3. In consulting, I was always working on one engagement at a time, and worked full-time on that engagement. Even though I had multiple bosses on that engagement, they communicated regularly and knew what I was doing, and appreciated that I couldn't get their task done because I was there until 1am doing something for another part of the project. Now, I'm staffed on 5-6 matters at a time, and sometimes, they all blow up. You can communicate to the partners that you have these deadlines (as they expect you to do), but they really don't care. Their appreciation of the fact that you have other stuff to do is merely theoretical.

4. Related to (3), I used to have end dates. I might be working hard for 5-6 weeks, but then I'd get a week or two of downtime before the next thing. Here, I have only taken Christmas and New Years off since early December. I've averaged 8 hours billed a day since then, and it's only going to stop when I quit.

5. The people really are worse, especially at handling stress and remaining professional in times of stress. I don't know why, but it is definitely true.

6. It's more solitary than my previous job. There's very little sense of camaraderie.

It's not that I ever thought that it would be pleasant. I just thought that it may be worth it. After being in it for half a year, and understanding better both the lifestyle as well as the payoff, I no longer think this.

+1.

I had 9 years W/E in white collar, service work. I would add one thing

In my prior career, during really busy times, my own efficiencies gave me control over my life. During a particularly busy time, I could crank out 60 hours worth of work in about 55 hours. If I knew I needed/wanted to leave early on a Friday because my undergrad happened to be playing in the NCAA tournament just 300 miles away, I worked harder (not necessarily longer) during the week. Can't do that in biglaw. Only way to bill the hours is to bill the hours. Maybe others don't think this is that big of a deal, but I do. I miss the days when I could get a full week's work done in about 32 hours of actual work.

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Re: "I'd like to work in biglaw for a while..."

Post by Lacepiece23 » Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:04 am

I work for what passes for biglaw in a smaller city (pays a market rate but that rate is substantially below $160k, less than 100 attorneys in the firm) and I have to say this thread makes me rethink some of the "midlaw is a flame" conventional wisdom.

Hours wise I agree it seems similar to biglaw, as my average day is about 7:30 to 6:00. But work wise it's totally different. I work on all types of litigation and get a lot of substantive work and almost no doc review, and that's pretty typical here even for first and second years. You sacrifice plenty prestige wise but I can honestly say I'm happy enough here that I'm not giving much thought to exit options.
Glad I decided to go to my secondary market and didn't even do OCI for New York firms. Hopefully the decision is a smart one for me.

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