Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam Forum
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- Pleasye
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
A particular level of scientific certainty isn't the same as a reasonable degree of certainty.kjartan wrote:Explanation to MBE Question says: "Answer choice B is incorrect because an expert does not need to reach a particular level of scientific certainty in order for his testimony to be admissible."
Themis lecture outline says: "Experts must also possess a reasonable degree of certainty in their opinion."
And naturally...The foregoing NCBE MBE question has been modified to reflect current NCBE stylistic approaches; the NCBE has not reviewed or endorsed this modification.
Agree that the modified questions generally suck though.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Just had a minor heart palpitation when I looked at the date and realized in exactly one month this stupid thing starts.
- UnamSanctam
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- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:17 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
I hated Crim, too, and it has turned out to be my best area. I think you might start slow on Con Law but the rules start making sense just by drilling PQs. Evidence and Civ Pro can be a little daunting too with esoteric intricacies, but I think understanding the underlying policies that drive those help you get to the right answer (or at least eliminate the wrong) when you're in a pinch. Crim Pro though. That messes with me. I have no advice.somuchbooty wrote:thanks all, yeah i am worried because constitutional law still confuses me and i hated crim law so I needed a pick me up to prepare me for the next few weeks.UnamSanctam wrote:Score brother.Beware, I got railed by the next few topics.somuchbooty wrote:I know I'm embarrassingly behind, but a Milestone 1 of 68 is good, right?
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
I found the MPT videos really confusing as well but a friend who was farther along told me to stick with it and use the method. I distilled his method into own document:lost in translation wrote:Hi folks
Lurking for a while. Foreign student here trying desperately to catch up to your curve;) Feeling alone (hence posting on a Sunday instead of studying). While I am really excited and feel privileged to be able to go to the US to sit this test (never been before!), I also feel I'm on the brink of madness.
Anyway I wanted to share this amazing hearsay lecture on you tube. I know you all have so much at stake and the lectures weren't terribly helpful (to me anyway). It's a well spent hour (if you don't get hearsay). Don't let the guitar at the beginning put you off. This guy should have taught the whole MBE. I think I love him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNeFsjTfs2s
May I ask you guys for any advice:
1. re NY materials - I'm watching/reading family, wills, NY prac, Corps, and just going to read the rest. Did you find it worthwhile watchig all the lectures? It's been a bit hit and miss so far.
2. PRACTICAL tactics for handwriting an MPT (or just practical tactics for outlining an answer effectively, full stop?) I watched the lectures - seems like a clever guy - but freaked out because by the time I would have finished crafting his structure (and I just got confused honestly by the handout) I would run out of time to write the thing - would seem to be very difficult even with a computer. Anyway, now I have a big ole case of MPT analysis - paralysis and I panic when I try to start one.
ps - I am finding a lot of comfort in this board, so thanks to all
Cheers peeps
How to Write a MPT Answer:
1. Read Task Memo
a. What is the POV? Objective OR Persuasive
b. Who is the audience? Legal OR Laypeople
c. What type of assignment is it?
2. Read the Library (UNLESS the question is a problem-solving question)
a. Read the oldest cases first
b. Read shorter factual things first (like police statements)
c. Note jurisdiction and chronology as you read—controlling or not?
d. Pay attention to footnotes and quotes
e. Pay attention to relationship between cases
f. Note policy concerns
g. Note which cases are good and bad—note whether you want to be similar or different.
h. Note whether a policy will apply to you.
i. Note where it is important to differentiate your situation from controlling law.
3. Make Rules and Tests (Note: have found this step not always necessary--sometimes it means re-writing a test from materials you receive)
a. Focus on grey areas of law
b. Read cases with an eye to determining why the case is included
c. Craft a test that addresses those grey areas and the materials
d. Add the elements of the test under a heading
4. Read the File
a. Focus on finding relevant facts that prove or disprove the elements in your working outline
b. Characterize relationships and insert into your outline
c. Some facts will be irrelevant
d. Add facts into your working outline under the headings
e. Create an ATTACK outline that determines the order of arguments
5. Write
a. IRAC for objective writing
b. CRAC for persuasive writing
Sorry formatting is weird.
Keep this list by you on practice MPTs and religiously follow it. By the time you get to 5, you should be able to do it in about 20-30 minutes if you type reasonably fast. Good luck!
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
I've found the MPT to be the one big area of this exam that you need to be cognizant of your personal style of analysis. I tried the first two practices following the Themis method and did horribly and had no time to write my response. It's trial and error. I now read the memo, read the statutes, read the file, read the cases, and then come up with my topic titles and subtopic titles and attack each one step by step. I have abandoned the whole outline before you write process because it just doesn't work for me I try to make my outline too perfect. I've done three since I've changed my process and it's drastically improved. You just need to play around with different approaches and eventually you will find the one that works for you.collegewriter wrote:I found the MPT videos really confusing as well but a friend who was farther along told me to stick with it and use the method. I distilled his method into own document:lost in translation wrote:Hi folks
Lurking for a while. Foreign student here trying desperately to catch up to your curve;) Feeling alone (hence posting on a Sunday instead of studying). While I am really excited and feel privileged to be able to go to the US to sit this test (never been before!), I also feel I'm on the brink of madness.
Anyway I wanted to share this amazing hearsay lecture on you tube. I know you all have so much at stake and the lectures weren't terribly helpful (to me anyway). It's a well spent hour (if you don't get hearsay). Don't let the guitar at the beginning put you off. This guy should have taught the whole MBE. I think I love him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNeFsjTfs2s
May I ask you guys for any advice:
1. re NY materials - I'm watching/reading family, wills, NY prac, Corps, and just going to read the rest. Did you find it worthwhile watchig all the lectures? It's been a bit hit and miss so far.
2. PRACTICAL tactics for handwriting an MPT (or just practical tactics for outlining an answer effectively, full stop?) I watched the lectures - seems like a clever guy - but freaked out because by the time I would have finished crafting his structure (and I just got confused honestly by the handout) I would run out of time to write the thing - would seem to be very difficult even with a computer. Anyway, now I have a big ole case of MPT analysis - paralysis and I panic when I try to start one.
ps - I am finding a lot of comfort in this board, so thanks to all
Cheers peeps
How to Write a MPT Answer:
1. Read Task Memo
a. What is the POV? Objective OR Persuasive
b. Who is the audience? Legal OR Laypeople
c. What type of assignment is it?
2. Read the Library (UNLESS the question is a problem-solving question)
a. Read the oldest cases first
b. Read shorter factual things first (like police statements)
c. Note jurisdiction and chronology as you read—controlling or not?
d. Pay attention to footnotes and quotes
e. Pay attention to relationship between cases
f. Note policy concerns
g. Note which cases are good and bad—note whether you want to be similar or different.
h. Note whether a policy will apply to you.
i. Note where it is important to differentiate your situation from controlling law.
3. Make Rules and Tests (Note: have found this step not always necessary--sometimes it means re-writing a test from materials you receive)
a. Focus on grey areas of law
b. Read cases with an eye to determining why the case is included
c. Craft a test that addresses those grey areas and the materials
d. Add the elements of the test under a heading
4. Read the File
a. Focus on finding relevant facts that prove or disprove the elements in your working outline
b. Characterize relationships and insert into your outline
c. Some facts will be irrelevant
d. Add facts into your working outline under the headings
e. Create an ATTACK outline that determines the order of arguments
5. Write
a. IRAC for objective writing
b. CRAC for persuasive writing
Sorry formatting is weird.
Keep this list by you on practice MPTs and religiously follow it. By the time you get to 5, you should be able to do it in about 20-30 minutes if you type reasonably fast. Good luck!
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
i still feel like it's a ton of time. i think i'll reserve my freak outs until the 2 week mark.adevine39 wrote:Just had a minor heart palpitation when I looked at the date and realized in exactly one month this stupid thing starts.
- lacrossebrother
- Posts: 7150
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:15 pm
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
- anon sequitur
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- Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:14 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Good to know you're out there, taking it easy for all us sinners.lacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Man, and I thought I cut myself short by only leaving 8 weeks to study! I'm on the way to 50% with four weeks left and still feel like I'm going to be buried for 12 hours a day for the next month.lacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
- somuchbooty
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:15 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
lol i hope this is a trolllacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
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- Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:28 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Heads up to New Yorkers, I don't know how substantially we will be tested on Administrative Law, but the NY lectures and handout leave out a TON of information that's contained within the large outline and is probably pertinent. So if you haven't given that large outline at least a look, I'd breeze through it quickly and familiarize yourself.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Some help please on a civ pro Q (shocker)
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
EDIT: Nevermind, he just covered stuff out of order.MrBriggs360 wrote:Heads up to New Yorkers, I don't know how substantially we will be tested on Administrative Law, but the NY lectures and handout leave out a TON of information that's contained within the large outline and is probably pertinent. So if you haven't given that large outline at least a look, I'd breeze through it quickly and familiarize yourself.
- annapach
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:24 pm
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
seems this guy has made his troll status obvious on a variety of boardssomuchbooty wrote:lol i hope this is a trolllacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
You're basically caught up! 4 weeks out and I'm on schedule and at 55%.MrBriggs360 wrote:Man, and I thought I cut myself short by only leaving 8 weeks to study! I'm on the way to 50% with four weeks left and still feel like I'm going to be buried for 12 hours a day for the next month.lacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
- somuchbooty
- Posts: 4192
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:15 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
yeah, suppose he is. I'm at 32% right now, which guarantees I won't have time to do anything else for the next month, which I'm cool with. I'm almost ashamed to be that far behind as is, I can't imagine down at 8%.annapach wrote:seems this guy has made his troll status obvious on a variety of boardssomuchbooty wrote:lol i hope this is a trolllacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
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- kjartan
- Posts: 1554
- Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:49 am
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
I realize that. I shouldn't have truncated Themis's rule statement. My point was that Themis gives an incomplete rule statement in the explanation. Themis says all that's required is: (1) qualified expert; (2) testimony based on sufficient facts and data; (3) testimony is product of reliable principles and methods; and (4) expert applied principles and methods reliable. Themis completely omits the reasonable degree of certainty requirement.Pleasye wrote:A particular level of scientific certainty isn't the same as a reasonable degree of certainty.kjartan wrote:Explanation to MBE Question says: "Answer choice B is incorrect because an expert does not need to reach a particular level of scientific certainty in order for his testimony to be admissible."
Themis lecture outline says: "Experts must also possess a reasonable degree of certainty in their opinion."
And naturally...The foregoing NCBE MBE question has been modified to reflect current NCBE stylistic approaches; the NCBE has not reviewed or endorsed this modification.
Agree that the modified questions generally suck though.
- lacrossebrother
- Posts: 7150
- Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:15 pm
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
ya i trolled you. not actually at 8%
- annapach
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:24 pm
Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Question re: crim pro.
Here is the question:
Answer: Answer Explanation: Excerpt from long outline:
My problem with this:
Here is the question:
Answer: Answer Explanation: Excerpt from long outline:
My problem with this:
- kjartan
- Posts: 1554
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Ugh, I was so close to hitting 90% on my last conlaw MBE set. Two Themis modified questions fucked me.
Last edited by kjartan on Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
I think (and someone jump in if I am misunderstanding) that the waiver would only apply if the court ordered a reply to the answer outside of a response/answer to the countercliam. Since employer only responded to the counterclaim, and there would not otherwise be a reply required to the answer/defenses, the 21 day rule would still apply? That seems attenuated, but its the best I can come up with.smalogna wrote:Some help please on a civ pro Q (shocker)
- UnamSanctam
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
Lax rarely outright lies. Especially outside the Lounge.annapach wrote:seems this guy has made his troll status obvious on a variety of boardssomuchbooty wrote:lol i hope this is a trolllacrossebrother wrote:ya im still at like 8%. not impressed by the difficulty of this thing. july 11 gonna start studying.
- annapach
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
lacrossebrother wrote:ya i trolled you. not actually at 8%
[img]http://i.imgur.com/TJXfMWv.png
I stand corrected. Respect.
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Re: Themis Bar Review Hangout - July 2015 Exam
My scores SUCK. I have never done so poorly and I am ready to give up. I hate VA and there are so many sections. I work full time right now and hope July 1st I'll be able to take the month of July off. I don't know why I can't recall like I used to. I'm guessing my cardiac arrest/coma didn't help though that was in November 2013.
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
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