Regional v. Top Schools Forum

[09042014]

yeah I'm trying to do my research before I bid at OCI next fall (I know this is a long way away, but right now this thread is a welcomed distraction).

I don't want to bid exclusively on markets that are likely to dismiss me for not having ties and leave me out in the rain with no umbrella (hehe)

If it comes down to no job v. job in TX, I would obviously choose the latter. BUT...I don't want to give up on moving to PNW if I can make it happen, even if it requires a lot of extra leg work...

edit sp

I actually interviewed at OCI for a Seattle firm with zero ties. They weren't having it, and spend at least a minute on why Seattle.

If you want to try, I'd put the PNW firms near the bottom of your bid list. I got a Seattle firm at like 45th bid out of 50 at northwestern. I got a bunch of texas firms in the 40's too. What this means is that you'll get your regular interviews, plus a couple extra ones in Seattle. So even if you don't get them, who cares, it didn't hurt.

[crit_racer]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

[de5igual]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

where do you go to school? your bidding strategy changes significantly depending on if you have pure lottery or some preselect hybrid

edit: typically you want to avoid bidding on two offices with the same firm. it makes your "tie" seem a lot less genuine

[crit_racer]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

where do you go to school? your bidding strategy changes significantly depending on if you have pure lottery or some preselect hybrid

UT

[rayiner]

I just find that hard to understand. I've been around TLS long enough to see people mention ties in any thread related to legal employment, but I've never understood the "why?" of it other than they are afraid that you are going to jump ship to go back home, but it seems like any competent lawyer could convince someone that they are going to stick around. Or is there more to it than that?

Even if you mass mailed lots of small and midsize firms, you really think they would just trash a Texas resume? Is it different for biglaw than small or midsize firms?

Training a lawyer is a big investment, and outside NYC/DC/Chicago, firms aren't hiring 50 people at a time such that they can afford to have people bail on them. People are inherently skeptical of the "I want to work here in some place I've never lived" because: 1) they know you're just trying to get a job; 2) in the period of time between 25-30, there tends to be a strong impetus for people to go back home to settle down, have kids, etc.

[Veyron]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

Its less demanding in the same way that Brooklyn Decker is less demanding than Megan Fox. Bro, without ties, its still not happening unless you're at the tippy top of the class. Even then, its probably not happening, go find a nice 6 to settle down with. Houston isn't that bad, is it?

[de5igual]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

where do you go to school? your bidding strategy changes significantly depending on if you have pure lottery or some preselect hybrid

UT

SF is significantly more tie-conscious than NYC, but probably a lot less so than PNW. I know of a few people at UT w/ no ties whatsoever to California that are going there this summer. I wouldn't bank on it though.

[crit_racer]

Its less demanding in the same way that Brooklyn Decker is less demanding than Megan Fox. Bro, without ties, its still not happening unless you're at the tippy top of the class. Even then, its probably not happening, go find a nice 6 to settle down with. Huston isn't that bad, is it?

story of my life lol. Yeah, H town is that bad actually. At least my ties are Dallas...

[09042014]

OK, so a city like NY is less likely to want ties, but what about SF? I know it's crazy competitive and lots of people gunning for SF, but is it at least less demanding in terms of ties than a place like Seattle or Portland?

EDIT: Thanks DF. Don't know exactly how bidding works, but the strategy you mention seems to be a good one. What about putting a firm like K&L Gates super high on my list? (they have big office in Seattle and also office in Dallas...)

You'll probably have to bid on each city separately. I wouldn't put any Seattle or Dallas firm on your list in any spot that you have chance of getting a firm in NYC, or wherever you ties.

Come and ask TLS about this when bidding. In my school you really only have a shot at getting unselective NYC (ie not V10) or local (in my case chicago) firms in the top 15 bid spots. You had a shot at DC up until 20-25. California top 15. But if you wanted to bid on a small market, you could get it almost all the way up to 50.

I ended up with a crazy number of screeners by playing the system.

[Grizz]

I ended up with a crazy number of screeners by playing the system.

So did I, then I struck out at LOLCI LOLOLOLOL

[Veyron]

Its less demanding in the same way that Brooklyn Decker is less demanding than Megan Fox. Bro, without ties, its still not happening unless you're at the tippy top of the class. Even then, its probably not happening, go find a nice 6 to settle down with. Huston isn't that bad, is it?

story of my life lol. Yeah, H town is that bad actually. At least my ties are Dallas...

Doesn't matter, Texas is Texas. Never heard of someone like you not passing the "ties" test for either city.

[de5igual]

I <3 how this thread's become an offshoot of the 2L No Motivation thread

[de5igual]

Its less demanding in the same way that Brooklyn Decker is less demanding than Megan Fox. Bro, without ties, its still not happening unless you're at the tippy top of the class. Even then, its probably not happening, go find a nice 6 to settle down with. Huston isn't that bad, is it?

story of my life lol. Yeah, H town is that bad actually. At least my ties are Dallas...

Doesn't matter, Texas is Texas. Never heard of someone like you not passing the "ties" test for either city.

at UT, a distinction is drawn between the two

[Veyron]

Its less demanding in the same way that Brooklyn Decker is less demanding than Megan Fox. Bro, without ties, its still not happening unless you're at the tippy top of the class. Even then, its probably not happening, go find a nice 6 to settle down with. Huston isn't that bad, is it?

story of my life lol. Yeah, H town is that bad actually. At least my ties are Dallas...

Doesn't matter, Texas is Texas. Never heard of someone like you not passing the "ties" test for either city.

at UT, a distinction is drawn between the two

I'm not saying no distinction, but kids from Texas at Penn tended to get offers from both.

[Gail]

I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

It is if you have a fake fiance'.

Sweet. Just gotta dump the real one so I can live in a warm weather environment for once in my life.

[holden147]

This thread is very relevant to my interests.

I want to live in Portland (born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, lived in Ohio for the last 10 years) so right now my options are (if accepted of course) a T14 like Duke, NW, Michigan or Georgetown vs Lewis and Clark/Oregon/UW. For someone who wants to live in the PDX area, is L&C the way to go? I saw a link posted earlier and it looks like most of the people in the legal market are T14 or L&C. Choices, choices! lol

[de5igual]

This thread is very relevant to my interests.

I want to live in Portland (born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, lived in Ohio for the last 10 years) so right now my options are (if accepted of course) a T14 like Duke, NW, Michigan or Georgetown vs Lewis and Clark/Oregon/UW. For someone who wants to live in the PDX area, is L&C the way to go? I saw a link posted earlier and it looks like most of the people in the legal market are T14 or L&C. Choices, choices! lol

you're prob not getting portland unless you're from there, T14 or not.

[Grizz]

This thread is very relevant to my interests.

I want to live in Portland (born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, lived in Ohio for the last 10 years) so right now my options are (if accepted of course) a T14 like Duke, NW, Michigan or Georgetown vs Lewis and Clark/Oregon/UW. For someone who wants to live in the PDX area, is L&C the way to go? I saw a link posted earlier and it looks like most of the people in the legal market are T14 or L&C. Choices, choices! lol

you're prob not getting portland unless you're from there, T14 or not.

This. In this economy, many firms in insular markets are suspicious of outsiders EVEN IF they go to the local school.

[booasa]

Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.

*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.

Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.

As a long time observer of the Az legal market I must agree. HYS and CLS and Chicago carry significantly more weight in this corner than the rest of the T14.

[Veyron]

Usually a key factor in this calculus is how much scholly you have at the regional (T1) school. Both U of CO and U of Washington are strong regional schools, so I think 50% or more scholly at either of those could be as good an investment as lower T14 at full price (and full scholly would probably outweigh lower T14 at full price for sure, although if you got full scholly offers from those schools I think you would be looking at some money from lower T14..). T10 could start to change the calculus again (though I think full scholly at those schools v. T10 at full price would be a toss up, probably slightly in favor of regional school though). T6 would probably be credited against anything other than full ride I think.

*Knows nothing about the mountain west*

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.

Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.

As a long time observer of the Az legal market I must agree. HYS and CLS and Chicago carry significantly more weight in this corner than the rest of the T14.

I mean, I've had bigphoenix lawyers who went to Chicago and CLS flat out tell me that there was no distinction between schools in the top 10 (besides HYS obviously). If you have better sources than that, would absolutely love to hear about them. If not, shut yer yapper.

[booasa]

[q

T6 distinction simply does not exist in the mountain west. Actually, it probably doesn't exist anywhere but for sure it doesn't exist in the mountain west.[/quote]

Dude, I lived in CO for three years and attended a SW school that feeds (to some degree into Denver)... But that's true, doesn't mean I know much about Mountain West legal scene...

But I'm not sure how much you know either being an Arizona boy who went to Penn hoping to get back to the Valley lol... Maybe that's how you learned.. fair enough (not saying it can't be done.. but not sure how PHX looks on Penn--it seems to me Berk would have been a better bet)..

In any case, what exactly was your point? Just that it would be worth taking the T1 over a T6 even if only 50% scholly? or 75%? Because, all I was saying is that T6 would prob be credited over the T1 unless full ride at the T1....



Oh, FTR, I mean T6 excluding NYU, simply because Columbia, Chicago, HYS have more cred in other regions I think. And I understand being T7 at Penn must be rough (though your still at a much better school than me), but it doesn't mean there isn't a sig jump from Penn to Columbia bro.[/quote]
As a long time observer of the Az legal market I must agree. HYS and CLS and Chicago carry significantly more weight in this corner than the rest of the T14.[/quote]

I mean, I've had bigphoenix lawyers who went to Chicago and CLS flat out tell me that there was no distinction between schools in the top 10 (besides HYS obviously). If you have better sources than that, would absolutely love to hear about them. If not, shut yer yapper.[/quote]
While I know this may be personally distressing to you given your circumstance the answer is Yes actually I do. I am one of those guys that went to Chicago or CLS and is presently engaged in the practise in Phx. It is not uncommon for people to tell others what they want to hear out of politness. What firms were your bigphoenix lawyers with? In Phoenix not all law firms or schools are created equal. I will be happy to go toe to toe with you on this issue since I have actually been hiring lawyers in Phoenix for many more years than I care to remember and still am. Incidentally I am happy to say that in my experience with UPenn grads has been generally pleasant. i do hope that if we meet during your interview you will prove to be more personable in real life than you are on this forum.

[Veyron]

While I know this may be personally distressing to you given your circumstance the answer is Yes actually I do. I am one of those guys that went to Chicago or CLS and is presently engaged in the practise in Phx. It is not uncommon for people to tell others what they want to hear out of politness. What firms were your bigphoenix lawyers with? In Phoenix not all law firms or schools are created equal. I will be happy to go toe to toe with you on this issue since I have actually been hiring lawyers in Phoenix for many more years than I care to remember and still am. Incidentally I am happy to say that in my experience with UPenn grads has been generally pleasant. i do hope that if we meet during your interview you will prove to be more personable in real life than you are on this forum.

I apologize if I offended you. On this board, a large percentage of people who spout off about the Phoenix market have never even set foot in the Valley.

While obviously I wouldn't discount the idea that they are just telling me what I wanted to hear, so to speak, the fact is that I asked the question before I matriculated anywhere so it would be pretty difficult for them to gauge which response would please me the most (assuming that they would care, in any event, about my feelings). If you make hiring decisions that favor your alma mater Chicago, that is perfectly understandable; the Penn lawyers in the market do the same. As far as my interactions are concerned, it was always impressed upon me that the market was relatively non-hierarchical as far as schools were concerned and firms cared significantly more about grades. As for who those interactions were with, I'd rather not disclose except to say that they were all at excellent firms at which I would feel privileged to work.

[booasa]

Phoenix certainly is less prestige driven that many markets and grades among the T-14 evens the playing field out .I would rather hire the LR guy from Penn than a median from CCN. However if you look at many firms like Snell,Perkins,Osborn Maledon,Fennimore etc you will see that CCN place unusually well particularly if you adjust for class size. The good news is that the Phx market is improving and there should continue to be offers for bright attys. My firm have just hired a number of new associates in the last few months.

[JPrezy87]

I'm getting the picture that law school is not at all a way to relocate across the country. Firms like kids who grew up near their city.

Some markets care more than others. IME, Seattle was brutal, other markets were more open-minded.

so what you're saying is...the less competition there is in a local market, the less likely firm recruiters are to give out of staters the evil eye?

[holden147]

This thread is very relevant to my interests.

I want to live in Portland (born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, lived in Ohio for the last 10 years) so right now my options are (if accepted of course) a T14 like Duke, NW, Michigan or Georgetown vs Lewis and Clark/Oregon/UW. For someone who wants to live in the PDX area, is L&C the way to go? I saw a link posted earlier and it looks like most of the people in the legal market are T14 or L&C. Choices, choices! lol

you're prob not getting portland unless you're from there, T14 or not.

This. In this economy, many firms in insular markets are suspicious of outsiders EVEN IF they go to the local school.

Thanks for the quick reply (even if it is bad news). Do you guys know if the same goes for Seattle? I have a very good chance at going to UW (with $$$). I really love the Pacific NW and want to live there, but not having ties there makes it difficult to live there. That's why I figured if I went to a great law school in the region, employers would be willing to overlook the "lack of roots" aspect of it.