Michigan's outstanding reputation tested by time Forum

[Bronte]

Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?

I find this amusing coming from a Duke student. Many choose not to attend Michigan because of its location, but many also like Ann Arbor. Durham is in the same boat, it doesn't have the wide spread appeal of New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago or DC.

Duke's in a small town and a state with no legal market, Virginia's in a small town and state with no legal market, Cornell's in a small, miserably cold town, and Penn's in a disliked city with no legal market. He's just a troll, and he knows it quite well, as do all frequent posters. He probably got dinged at Michigan or for whatever other reason has it out for the school. Why else would one constantly post about the decline of a school that everyone else thinks is properly ranked?

[Kabuo]

The fate of the school is tied to the state of Michigan. In twenty years, things are probably going to look a lot worse than they do now.

The state has been in serious decay for at least the past decade, if not the past two. If anything, its situation will probably improve. You often posit this absurd notion, but its obvious fallacy is the fact that the school receives negligible funding from the state and places a negligible quantity of self-selecting students into the state. Thus, it's prospects are only tied to the state in the most negligible way.

It's not funding that's the problem, it's attracting students and faculty. Michigan's faculty has taken a big hit in the last 20 years, and you can see the difficult time its had attracting students in its entering class numbers. What's going to happen once Chrysler and GM are allowed to implode? Ann Arbor isn't 40 miles from the heart of Detroit and 10-20 minutes from other decaying areas. How many world-class universities can hang on when the area around them declines with no end in sight?

Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?

I'm sorry, but isn't this the choice everyone makes when they attend Penn?

[3ThrowAway99]

I keep hearing (veiled or otherwise) references to how Michigan is in decline, it's reputation is foundering, etc., often from Michigan Law alumni themselves.

To what does this refer, is it true, and should it be something that a prospective student should take into account?

(I don't really think it's going into TTTdom--I just need a catchy thread title--so please no knee-jerk responses. Tyia.)

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of transferring there?

[bdubs]

Correct. It's general ignorance, not general knowledge, that the school "went from HY to where it is now." Michigan was #3 the first year the rankings came out, and due to a change in methodology, it went to where it is now now, a solid T10, which is where it's always been, and likely always will be.

Look, I said 40 years ago, not 25. I was referring to this quote from Brian Leiter:

"Reputations die hard and are long in being born-especially among attorneys. In 1970, the top five law schools were Harvard, Yale, and Michigan, with Columbia, Stanford, and Chicago fighting it out for the remaining two spots. Penn was just on the cusp of the "top five," Virginia was clearly top ten, and then some mix of Duke, Northwestern, Texas, and Berkeley fought it out for the remaining top ten spots. Cornell was surely top 15, NYU might have been top 15, Vanderbilt was surely top 20, and Georgetown might have been top 20. UCLA was a brand new law school, just a half-dozen years old."

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2003 ... onal.shtml

I was NOT referring to a one-year blip on USNews.

I actually agree with Leiter here that there are two (or more) cohorts of people here:

Those whose opinions were established before USNEWS took over the reputation game. They think that Michigan is among the best in the country and is right up there with HYS, Columbia and Chicago (since they tend to also see Chicago as an elite tier school).

Those whose opinions have been established or influenced by the proliferation of data from USNEWS and other sources (ABA data reporting). They see Michigan as a top school, but not in a class above Penn, NYU or others.

Because the overall reputation of Michigan is an amalgam of both old and new I think it is generally "declining" although not in the sense that TLS generally uses.

[beachbum]

Think about it like this: would you attend Ole Miss if it were a top school?

I find this amusing coming from a Duke student. Many choose not to attend Michigan because of its location, but many also like Ann Arbor. Durham is in the same boat, it doesn't have the wide spread appeal of New York, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago or DC.

I was wondering when someone was going to jump on that. Durham, Charlottesville, Ithaca, and Ann Arbor aren't exactly bustling metropolises. Hell, even Yale isn't quite sitting in an urban utopia. But these schools still seem to do all right.

[Bronte]

I actually agree with Leiter here that there are two (or more) cohorts of people here:

Those whose opinions were established before USNEWS took over the reputation game. They think that Michigan is among the best in the country and is right up there with HYS, Columbia and Chicago (since they tend to also see Chicago as an elite tier school).

Those whose opinions have been established or influenced by the proliferation of data from USNEWS and other sources (ABA data reporting). They see Michigan as a top school, but not in a class above Penn, NYU or others.

Because the overall reputation of Michigan is an amalgam of both old and new I think it is generally "declining" although not in the sense that TLS generally uses.

Maybe you're right, but that would tend to indicate that it were only "declining" towards its well-established position in the T10. In other words, it's not "declining" in any appreciable sense.

[NZA]

The fact that I will be at MLaw in the fall is an obvious sign of its decay.

[Bronte]

The fact that I will be at MLaw in the fall is an obvious sign of its decay.

The fact that you have a Rainier beer cap tar is an obvious sign that you're wrong.

Edit: for egregious misspelling.

[NZA]

The fact that I will be at MLaw in the fall is an obvious sign of its decay.

The fact that you have a Rainier beer cap tar is an obvious sign that you're wrong.

[Bronte]

The fact that I will be at MLaw in the fall is an obvious sign of its decay.

The fact that you have a Rainer beer cap tar is an obvious sign that you're wrong.

If you would just edit that Rainier misspelling in that quote so I'm not damned to eternal hell...

[NZA]

The fact that I will be at MLaw in the fall is an obvious sign of its decay.

The fact that you have a Rainer beer cap tar is an obvious sign that you're wrong.

If you would just edit that Rainier misspelling in that quote so I'm not damned to eternal hell...

What misspelling?

[Bronte]

If you would just edit that Rainier misspelling in that quote so I'm not damned to eternal hell...

What misspelling?

Lol, I'm just goofing around, but Rainier not Rainer (in my post, not yours). Haven't had a Rainier in a while.

[die Zauberflote]

I'm a 0L who will be attending Michigan this Fall. I'd like go off on two disconnected rants:

(1) I was admitted to other schools ranked higher than Mich. Ann Arbor seems pretty lame to me and I suspect that three years from now it will seem even lamer. Even so, I ultimately chose Michigan because it was the best fit for my personality. I think that "personality fit" isn't given its due on TLS. From speaking with lawyers and 3Ls who have been through OCI I know that prospective associates and lawyers alike realize the value of finding a firm that is a good fit. How can the minutia that gets Chicago ranked higher than Michigan, or Michigan higher than Virginia, outweigh the significance of the personality of the institution to which you will be enslaved for three years?

Every time I met a Michigan student or another prospective at ASW I thought: "I'd like to have a beer with this guy," or "What an interesting person." I didn't get that feeling at some other schools, and I do not think that a slightly higher supreme court clerkship placement rate or the possibility of an OCI with Wachtell should outweigh that feeling. So, OP, you should be spending more time visiting schools so you can find the best fit, and less time splitting hairs regarding ranking. Michigan may not be the best fit for you, but some other school is. Your focus should be on finding it.

(2) Through my job, I've had the privilege of meeting 1L and 2L clerks, as well as new associates, from nearly every top-14. There is no noticeable difference in general intelligence between any of these schools' students or graduates. Even comparing Harvard to Cornell the difference seems negligible. The skills that make one a good lawyer (or a rich one) are not necessarily the skills that will gain one admittance into the number 2 school over the number 6 school. So again, I think that this TLS makes a mountain of a mole hill when it comes to rankings.

[NZA]

If you would just edit that Rainier misspelling in that quote so I'm not damned to eternal hell...

What misspelling?

Lol, I'm just goofing around, but Rainier not Rainer (in my post, not yours). Haven't had a Rainier in a while.

I edited it and was making a joke.

Well, I'll be sure to drink one for you tonight!

[Bronte]

I'm a 0L who will be attending Michigan this Fall. I'd like go off on two disconnected rants:

(1) I was admitted to other schools ranked higher than Mich. Ann Arbor seems pretty lame to me and I suspect that three years from now it will seem even lamer. Even so, I ultimately chose Michigan because it was the best fit for my personality. I think that "personality fit" isn't given its due on TLS. From speaking with lawyers and 3Ls who have been through OCI I know that prospective associates and lawyers alike realize the value of finding a firm that is a good fit. How can the minutia that gets Chicago ranked higher than Michigan, or Michigan higher than Virginia, outweigh the significance of the personality of the institution to which you will be enslaved for three years?

Every time I met a Michigan student or another prospective at ASW I thought: "I'd like to have a beer with this guy," or "What an interesting person." I didn't get that feeling at some other schools, and I do not think that a slightly higher supreme court clerkship placement rate or the possibility of an OCI with Wachtell should outweigh that feeling. So, OP, you should be spending more time visiting schools so you can find the best fit, and less time splitting hairs regarding ranking. Michigan may not be the best fit for you, but some other school is. Your focus should be on finding it.

(2) Through my job, I've had the privilege of meeting 1L and 2L clerks, as well as new associates, from nearly every top-14. There is no noticeable difference in general intelligence between any of these schools' students or graduates. Even comparing Harvard to Cornell the difference seems negligible. The skills that make one a good lawyer (or a rich one) are not necessarily the skills that will gain one admittance into the number 2 school over the number 6 school. So again, I think that this TLS makes a mountain of a mole hill when it comes to rankings.

Good post. With regard to Ann Arbor, I think it's a regular college town with below average food and weather and above average sports. It's fun, and it completely suffices to keep a person entertained while spending the majority of their time on school.

I think TLS does a decent job emphasizing fit. (I'm about as much of a TLS defender as I am a Michigan defender though, so take it as you will.) I think you can take the "fit," as perceived from short visits to the school, into account if you have the luxury of choosing between peer schools. But I don't think as a general rule fit should play much when you're looking at schools in different subtiers, especially with different money.

[Bronte]

If you would just edit that Rainier misspelling in that quote so I'm not damned to eternal hell...

What misspelling?

Lol, I'm just goofing around, but Rainier not Rainer (in my post, not yours). Haven't had a Rainier in a while.

I edited it and was making a joke.

Well, I'll be sure to drink one for you tonight!

Ha my bad. Cheers to that. Go blue, and good luck at Michigan.

[flcath]

I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.

*I have already gotten into Michigan.
*Thank you.
*The deadline has passed / I heard that UVA prefers in-state transfers / I only felt I needed to apply to 2 of MVP.

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of transferring there?

Yeah, I'm heavily considering it. I don't think I'll make LR at ND (are you an ND student? I have trouble keeping track of handles on here), though my scholarship is very generous.


I think the location / state of Michigan decline / difficulty of attracting faculty arguments are interesting. The LSAT median (169) seems low for a T10 to me, though I dunno.

I'm not Michigan bashing. I'm playing devil's advocate on what would be an enormous investment of $$$$.

[Bronte]

I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.

*I have already gotten into Michigan.
*Thank you.
*The deadline has passed / I heard that UVA prefers in-state transfers / I only felt I needed to apply to 2 of MVP.

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of transferring there?

Yeah, I'm heavily considering it. I don't think I'll make LR at ND (are you an ND student? I have trouble keeping track of handles on here), though my scholarship is very generous.


I think the location / state of Michigan decline / difficulty of attracting faculty arguments are interesting. The LSAT median (169) seems low for a T10 to me, though I dunno.

I'm not Michigan bashing. I'm playing devil's advocate on what would be an enormous investment of $$$$.

It's great to consider your investment carefully, wise in fact. What is not wise is to, even for a moment, consider seriously anything that Quakeroats says about Michigan. Here are Leiter's most recent faculty rankings:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... tion.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml

I'll let you decide for yourself. Keep in mind that quality of faculty (in terms of "prestige" of scholarship and controlling for employment prospects) only matters ... I don't even know to whom it matters, presumably to Quakeroats and to those pursuing academia, in which case HYS are your best options and Michigan is as good as its peers. I can attest with confidence that the professors I had 1L were great. Many of them were geniuses and luminaries in their fields. There's no decline or faculty deficiency at Michigan.

Congrats on your acceptance. Hope to see you in the fall.

[quakeroats]

I'd be more worried about getting into Michigan rather than pissing my panties about ranking rumors. Nice picture of yourself. I'd recommend applying to UVA, Broseph.

*I have already gotten into Michigan.
*Thank you.
*The deadline has passed / I heard that UVA prefers in-state transfers / I only felt I needed to apply to 2 of MVP.

Out of curiosity, are you thinking of transferring there?

Yeah, I'm heavily considering it. I don't think I'll make LR at ND (are you an ND student? I have trouble keeping track of handles on here), though my scholarship is very generous.


I think the location / state of Michigan decline / difficulty of attracting faculty arguments are interesting. The LSAT median (169) seems low for a T10 to me, though I dunno.

I'm not Michigan bashing. I'm playing devil's advocate on what would be an enormous investment of $$$$.

It's great to consider your investment carefully, wise in fact. What is not wise is to, even for a moment, consider seriously anything that Quakeroats says about Michigan. Here are Leiter's most recent faculty rankings:

http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... tion.shtml
http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2 ... ship.shtml

I'll let you decide for yourself. Keep in mind that quality of faculty (in terms of "prestige" of scholarship and controlling for employment prospects) only matters ... I don't even know to whom it matters, presumably to Quakeroats and to those pursuing academia, in which case HYS are your best options and Michigan is as good as its peers. I can attest with confidence that the professors I had 1L were great. Many of them were geniuses and luminaries in their fields. There's no decline or faculty deficiency at Michigan.

Congrats on your acceptance. Hope to see you in the fall.

There are two different arguments going on here. One is is over whether Michigan won't be as esteemed tomorrow as it is today. The other is whether it's a good idea to go to Michigan over, say, Duke. On this second argument, here are some things you may want to consider:

1. Michigan has a very large class. It's almost twice the size of Duke, especially this year when the word is we've pared back to 190 or so. Large classes tend to be a liability in this economy.
2. Michigan had the worst OCI performance of any top school in 2009. The most popular explanation is that the CSO told everyone to bid on Chicago, but who knows? If you go to Michigan you may well find out.
3. Michigan doesn't release its career stats to applicants except in aggregated 5-year form. We still don't know how well they've done this year. Duke's stats have been up for months and compare favorably to Columbia's.
4. Duke takes care of its graduates at the bottom of the class and our LRAP is better than Michigan's.

Also, Durham has an average of 8 inches of snow annually to Ann Arbor's 52.

[Bronte]

There are two different arguments going on here. One is is over whether Michigan won't be as esteemed tomorrow as it is today. The other is whether it's a good idea to go to Michigan over, say, Duke. On this second argument, here are some things you may want to consider:

1. Michigan has a very large class. It's almost twice the size of Duke, especially this year when the word is we've pared back to 190 or so. Large classes tend to be a liability in this economy.
2. Michigan had the worst OCI performance of any top school in 2009. The most popular explanation is that the CSO told everyone to bid on Chicago, but who knows? If you go to Michigan you may well find out.
3. Michigan doesn't release its career stats to applicants except in aggregated 5-year form. We still don't know how well they've done this year. Duke's stats have been up for months and compare favorably to Columbia's.
4. Duke takes care of its graduates at the bottom of the class and our LRAP is better than Michigan's.

Also, Durham has an average of 8 inches of snow annually to Ann Arbor's 52.

There are not two different arguments going on here. You're continuing to make the same wild speculation that Michigan is going to be a lesser school in 20 years that you've been making since you first developed your personal grudge against them when they dinged you. The question is whether there's any evidence of their decline, and there is none. Regarding your tired assertions, which I've refuted before:

1. Michigan has a medium size class. Same size as Virginia's, smaller than Harvard's, Columbia's, NYU's, and Georgetown's. The extent to which class size is a "liability" in this economy is disputed, but if it is, Michigan shares that liability with a substantial portion of the top schools.

2. Source? Michigan has continued to post stats commensurate with its ranking. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.

3. This is not a thread about comparing Michigan to Duke. Somehow, you think every thread is about that. I don't know why. Sure, Duke gave you guys better stats. Other top 10 schools have received worse stats. I don't see how this is evidence of a decline.

4. I don't know much about LRAPs, other than to say I know Michigan's is not shabby. I don't know what it means that Duke "takes care of its lower ranked students," and I don't really care, because this is not a compare Michigan to Duke thread, especially not a compare Michigan to Duke based on extremely nuanced and inconsequential distinctions--distinctions that could be made between Duke and any other school.

Oh, yes, the snow. You always bring that one out when you lose this argument don't you?

[flcath]

There are two different arguments going on here. One is is over whether Michigan won't be as esteemed tomorrow as it is today. The other is whether it's a good idea to go to Michigan over, say, Duke. On this second argument, here are some things you may want to consider:

1. Michigan has a very large class. It's almost twice the size of Duke, especially this year when the word is we've pared back to 190 or so. Large classes tend to be a liability in this economy.
2. Michigan had the worst OCI performance of any top school in 2009. The most popular explanation is that the CSO told everyone to bid on Chicago, but who knows? If you go to Michigan you may well find out.
3. Michigan doesn't release its career stats to applicants except in aggregated 5-year form. We still don't know how well they've done this year. Duke's stats have been up for months and compare favorably to Columbia's.
4. Duke takes care of its graduates at the bottom of the class and our LRAP is better than Michigan's.

Also, Durham has an average of 8 inches of snow annually to Ann Arbor's 52.

There are not two different arguments going on here. You're continuing to make the same wild speculation that Michigan is going to be a lesser school in 20 years that you've been making since you first developed your personal grudge against them when they dinged you. The question is whether there's any evidence of their decline, and there is none. Regarding your tired assertions, which I've refuted before:

1. Michigan has a medium size class. Same size as Virginia's, smaller than Harvard's, Columbia's, NYU's, and Georgetown's. The extent to which class size is a "liability" in this economy is disputed, but if it is, Michigan shares that liability with a substantial portion of the top schools.

2. Source? Michigan has continued to post stats commensurate with its ranking. http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1.

3. This is not a thread about comparing Michigan to Duke. Somehow, you think every thread is about that. I don't know why. Sure, Duke gave you guys better stats. Other top 10 schools have received worse stats. I don't see how this is evidence of a decline.

4. I don't know much about LRAPs, other than to say I know Michigan's is not shabby. I don't know what it means that Duke "takes care of its lower ranked students," and I don't really care, because this is not a compare Michigan to Duke thread, especially not a compare Michigan to Duke based on extremely nuanced and inconsequential distinctions--distinctions that could be made between Duke and any other school.

Oh, yes, the snow. You always bring that one out when you lose this argument don't you?

I agree this isn't a Duke v. Mich thread. It's a "after UG, it took me two years to pay off a measly $15K in debt, and when I think about six-figure debt, it makes me have to stand up and exhale deeply" thread. Call it due diligence.

I wish I could link you to the little references I'm talking about: they're disparate, and they don't go into anymore detail than I have. If there's genuinely no feeling of dread at U of M among its students (as there is at, say, Emory, which I personally believe to be undergoing a purely temporary crisis), then I guess that's all I'm asking for.

[Bronte]

I agree this isn't a Duke v. Mich thread. It's a "after UG, it took me two years to pay off a measly $15K in debt, and when I think about six-figure debt, it makes me have to stand up and exhale deeply" thread. Call it due diligence.

I wish I could link you to the little references I'm talking about: they're disparate, and they don't go into anymore detail than I have. If there's genuinely no feeling of dread at U of M among its students (as there is at, say, Emory, which I personally believe to be undergoing a purely temporary crisis), then I guess that's all I'm asking for.

There's no feeling of dread. If you told someone at Michigan about a "decline," they'd look at you like you were nuts. In general, there's a sense of urgency, which I'm quite confident is felt at all schools, given the economy. As for the stuff with quakeroats, this is just an old routine. He posts unfounded assertions about Michigan in any thread wherein the school's reputation is even tangentially mentioned, and others (Michigan and non Michigan students alike) shoot him down. I consider it a civic duty to do my part.

[starchinkilt]

I agree this isn't a Duke v. Mich thread. It's a "after UG, it took me two years to pay off a measly $15K in debt, and when I think about six-figure debt, it makes me have to stand up and exhale deeply" thread. Call it due diligence.

I wish I could link you to the little references I'm talking about: they're disparate, and they don't go into anymore detail than I have. If there's genuinely no feeling of dread at U of M among its students (as there is at, say, Emory, which I personally believe to be undergoing a purely temporary crisis), then I guess that's all I'm asking for.

I'm choosing to attend Michigan as a transfer this fall. I'm going to incur more debt, but I believe my career options will be stronger coming out of Michigan. Other than increased career opportunities, the one thing about Michigan that is alleviating my fear of six-figure debt is their new LRAP (which transfers this year are a part of and no, I'm not trying to compare it to Duke's). If your salary is under $88,000 for any law-related (jd required) job, they help you out for 10 years. If it's under $50,000, they pay everything for ten years. If you're in PI/Gov, everything is forgiven after those 10 years. If you're in private practice, 10 years is enough time to save $$ for future payments under IBR/tax on the amount forgiven after 25 years.

hth

[Slevin Kelevra 2011]

Michigan is an outstanding law school. The career prospects have declined due to Michigan's failing economy, which doesn't look to bounce back any time soon. The Chicago market is still littered with Michigan alums though. It is hard for Michigan to compete with the T14s that have their own major markets to feed into. Even BU/BC, UCLA/USC and Texas have stronger markets they feed into. Still, I don't think Michigan is hurting as much as your post makes it seem. The NLJ250 stats continue to be strong.

[Verity]

Anyone who idolized DPW will tend to enjoy amplifying miniscule/dubious issues.