Berkeley Law or Columbia Forum

[LawandOrder]

Berkeley -> Hippies
Columbia -> Professionals

[chris0805]

How is Columbia's LRAP better?

At Columbia you start making a pro-rated payment if you earn more than 50k, whereas at Berkeley that happens when you earn more than 65k. At Columbia you have to return all the monetary help you received if you leave the program before the first three years are up. I don't think this happens at Berkeley.

Am I missing something?

Yes, at Berkeley you can take a traditional LRAP or take the IBR path (which has its own problems/risks), but traditional LRAP vs. traditional LRAP, columbia is stronger if you're paying sticker. Berkeley's LRAP covers only the loans you take out up to 100K. Most public interest students have significantly more than 100K in loans so...

while you pay $0 on your loans under 100K while making 40K, 50K, or 60K, Berkeley requires you to pay ~4K (if you have 130K in loans) or ~10K (if you have 180K in loans). At Columbia, you pay 0$ at 40K or 50K and 3,400 at 60K no matter what.

[86revolt]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

[Dignan]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

I was with you until the last two sentences. NYC COL is higher than Berkeley's, but it's not much higher. In terms of cost of living, Berkeley is a lot closer to Morningside Heights than it is to Charlottesville, Ann Arbor, or Ithica. As for your "living in Harlem would suck" sentiment, have you even been to Manhattan? Have you visited Morningside Heights? I can see how someone would like Berkeley better, but it's going to be a close call for most people. Both areas are a lot of fun.

[im_blue]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

Not really, it'll be virtually the same. Berkeley's in-state tuition is projected to total $145k (LinkRemoved) from 2010 to 2013, while Columbia's tuition over those 3 years will be about $147k, assuming 3% annual increases. And saying Columbia is in Harlem would be like saying Berkeley is in Oakland.

[Dignan]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

Not really, it'll be virtually the same. Berkeley's in-state tuition is projected to total $145k (LinkRemoved) from 2010 to 2013, while Columbia's tuition over those 3 years will be about $147k, assuming 3% annual increases.

Not that it makes a huge difference, but most schools, including Columbia, have been jacking up tuition at a 5% annual rate.

[86revolt]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

I was with you until the last two sentences. NYC COL is higher than Berkeley's, but it's not much higher. In terms of cost of living, Berkeley is a lot closer to Morningside Heights than it is to Charlottesville, Ann Arbor, or Ithica. As for your "living in Harlem would suck" sentiment, have you even been to Manhattan? Have you visited Morningside Heights? I can see how someone would like Berkeley better, but it's going to be a close call for most people. Both areas are a lot of fun.

yes, i've visited manhattan, but the problem isn't the city of new york (which is actually my favorite city, by the way). the problem is that columbia is situated in harlem. once you get past 112th st, i don't think i would include in that the nicer areas of manhattan. NYU would not have this problem for obvious reasons.

as for cost of living: as long as we agree that berkeley is cheaper than new york, we can disagree about the extent. it remains something for the OP to consider nonetheless.

OP: in the end, the heck with it. just join me in the class of 13 at cal and enjoy your next 3 yrs. do i seriously need to remind you of saturday gamedays and beat the clock at bears lair?

[86revolt]

And saying Columbia is in Harlem would be like saying Berkeley is in Oakland.

that's a good analogy...since columbia and harlem are in different cities (sarcasm intended)

[Dignan]

And saying Columbia is in Harlem would be like saying Berkeley is in Oakland.

that's a good analogy...since columbia and harlem are in different cities (sarcasm intended)

I don't get the sarcasm. Columbia is in the Morningside Heights neighborhood, which borders Harlem. If Harlem scares you for some reason, then go a couple subway stops south and get an apartment on in the Upper West Side. Yeah, that'll be more expensive, just like it's more expensive to live in the nice parts of Berkeley instead of getting an apartment in Oakland.

[86revolt]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

Not really, it'll be virtually the same. Berkeley's in-state tuition is projected to total $145k (LinkRemoved) from 2010 to 2013, while Columbia's tuition over those 3 years will be about $147k, assuming 3% annual increases. And saying Columbia is in Harlem would be like saying Berkeley is in Oakland.

can you tell me how you got CLS at 147? assuming the 2009-10 costs stay the same without ANY increase, just the tuition and fees would be $148,926 based on the site you directed me to.

[im_blue]

Cal alumni here in the boalt class of 2013. i obviously voted for berkeley! it seems that presumption, for you, lies with berkeley and you need incontrovertible evidence that columbia is a better choice. well, one more thing to consider is cost. since you're a CA resident, you'll get in-state tuition. even though berkeley's tuition is rising, it will not be as high as CLS. plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley. finally, i think living in Harlem would suck...especially when you have the option of berkeley.

Not really, it'll be virtually the same. Berkeley's in-state tuition is projected to total $145k (LinkRemoved) from 2010 to 2013, while Columbia's tuition over those 3 years will be about $147k, assuming 3% annual increases. And saying Columbia is in Harlem would be like saying Berkeley is in Oakland.

can you tell me how you got CLS at 147? assuming the 2009-10 costs stay the same without ANY increase, just the tuition and fees would be $148,926 based on the site you directed me to.

$46,332 * (1.03 + 1.06 + 1.09) = $147,336
$46,332 * (1.03+1.03^2+1.03^3) = $147,504

If you add fees the total would be about $153k. I mean, we can argue about 3% or 4% or 5% increases, but my point is that Berkeley and CLS will cost about the same for tuition (within several thousand), so that's not a clear win for Berkeley.

[86revolt]

$46,332 * (1.03 + 1.06 + 1.09) = $147,336
$46,332 * (1.03+1.03^2+1.03^3) = $147,504

If you add fees the total would be about $153k. I mean, we can argue about 3% or 4% or 5% increases, but my point is that Berkeley and CLS will cost about the same for tuition (within several thousand), so that's not a clear win for Berkeley.

tuition and fees at 5% is $156,496. sure, $10k can't be the only reason to pick one school over the other. but it can be the icing on the cake. if you read my earlier post, i wasn't saying OP should go to berkeley only b/c it's cheaper. but nicer weather, better connections in CA, a good sports program, and said girl. add to that $10k in savings and why NOT? cause you get a ivy name on your degree?

[fortissimo]

plus NY cost of living is much higher than berkeley.

Agree with the others that COL is not much lower in Berkeley than in NYC. Rent for a studio in Berkeley easily costs 1000 to 1200 a month if you want it within 0.5-1 mile of the school. COL is very similar.

I'd go to Columbia if both are at sticker.

[Dignan]

$46,332 * (1.03 + 1.06 + 1.09) = $147,336
$46,332 * (1.03+1.03^2+1.03^3) = $147,504

If you add fees the total would be about $153k. I mean, we can argue about 3% or 4% or 5% increases, but my point is that Berkeley and CLS will cost about the same for tuition (within several thousand), so that's not a clear win for Berkeley.

tuition and fees at 5% is $156,496. sure, $10k can't be the only reason to pick one school over the other. but it can be the icing on the cake.

Actually, the difference is probably more than $9K. The Berkeley tuition covers health insurance; this is a separate expense at most schools, including Columbia. That's another $5-$6K of savings right there. And, not that this would have a big impact on anyone's choice, but Berkeley gives you a free bus pass for the entire year, which is nice.

[im_blue]

$46,332 * (1.03 + 1.06 + 1.09) = $147,336
$46,332 * (1.03+1.03^2+1.03^3) = $147,504

If you add fees the total would be about $153k. I mean, we can argue about 3% or 4% or 5% increases, but my point is that Berkeley and CLS will cost about the same for tuition (within several thousand), so that's not a clear win for Berkeley.

tuition and fees at 5% is $156,496. sure, $10k can't be the only reason to pick one school over the other. but it can be the icing on the cake. if you read my earlier post, i wasn't saying OP should go to berkeley only b/c it's cheaper. but nicer weather, better connections in CA, a good sports program, and said girl. add to that $10k in savings and why NOT? cause you get a ivy name on your degree?

I agree with this for the most part, except that "better connections in CA" may be closer than you think. One could make the argument that Columbia matches or beats Berkeley in California, especially for the LA and SD markets. But that small difference may not be enough to give up being close to the girl.

[iamthewalrus]

Yes, at Berkeley you can take a traditional LRAP or take the IBR path (which has its own problems/risks), but traditional LRAP vs. traditional LRAP, columbia is stronger if you're paying sticker. Berkeley's LRAP covers only the loans you take out up to 100K. Most public interest students have significantly more than 100K in loans so...

while you pay $0 on your loans under 100K while making 40K, 50K, or 60K, Berkeley requires you to pay ~4K (if you have 130K in loans) or ~10K (if you have 180K in loans). At Columbia, you pay 0$ at 40K or 50K and 3,400 at 60K no matter what.

As far as I understand, there are no longer two options for the Class of 2013 and beyond. There is also no longer a cap under Berkeley's new LRAP.

What risks or problems exist under Berkeley's LRAP that don't exist under Columbia's?

[fortissimo]

Yes, at Berkeley you can take a traditional LRAP or take the IBR path (which has its own problems/risks), but traditional LRAP vs. traditional LRAP, columbia is stronger if you're paying sticker. Berkeley's LRAP covers only the loans you take out up to 100K. Most public interest students have significantly more than 100K in loans so...

while you pay $0 on your loans under 100K while making 40K, 50K, or 60K, Berkeley requires you to pay ~4K (if you have 130K in loans) or ~10K (if you have 180K in loans). At Columbia, you pay 0$ at 40K or 50K and 3,400 at 60K no matter what.

As far as I understand, there are no longer two options for the Class of 2013 and beyond. There is also no longer a cap under Berkeley's new LRAP.

What risks or problems exist under Berkeley's LRAP that don't exist under Columbia's?

There is still technically a 100k cap. It's just that they merged Berkeley's LRAP with IBR so IBR is supposed to help pay off the remaining debt beyond 100k. But, IBR can help pay off your loans at ANY school, so I don't think it's really that much of an advantage.

[chris0805]

As far as I understand, there are no longer two options for the Class of 2013 and beyond. There is also no longer a cap under Berkeley's new LRAP.

What risks or problems exist under Berkeley's LRAP that don't exist under Columbia's?

Using the IBR has a lot of risks with which I, personally, am not that comfortable. Let's say you took out 150K in loans. Your loan payment is ~20K/ yr.

With a traditional LRAP program, you make 50K, school pays 20K and covers your loan payment. Adjusted for interest, you now have (about) 139K left in loans. If you do this for five years, you have about 90K left in loans (about 100K paid and ~40K of it was interest). Then, if you switch careers, stay home for year, leave the country, etc. etc., you have 90K left.

With the IBR program, you make 50K, IBR requires only that you pay about 4K. School pays 4K, interest is about 9K AND... at the end of the year you now have (about)154K in loans. After five years, you'll have about 170K in loans. Now, if you stay in for 10 years in federally eligible employment, it all gets forgiven. But, it's tying you down significantly longer and you better pray that congress doesn't change it's mind or put stricter limitations on the program because after ten years, your loans will likely be significantly larger than when you started.

P.S. all of these numbers are estimates, but they give you an idea of how things work.

[CalorColumbiaGuy]

...all thing's considered, I'm on the verge of picking Berkeley... any last words, TLS community?