Early Decision W&M

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Ferrisjso

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Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:30 am

Well I'm expecting my third and final LSAT score back on Monday and I've been working on my applications. During the process, I've decided to apply to William and Mary early decision. I have a better chance of getting in there, then my other two top choices(UMich and Vandy) and if I get in Early Decision I would get a full scholarship whereas even If I got in RD, I almost certainly wouldn't receive enough money to go. I love William and Mary, it really seems like a good fit and the Northern Virginia area seems to be a nice area to practice in. Is giving up the (admittedly slim, don't worry I don't need a reality check on that)chance to go to Vandy and UMich (almost certainly at sticker) worth it? I'm also applying to Wash U because I heard wonderful things about scholarships from them on here (and they gave me a fee waiver while most T20 schools are pretty strict on that).

To put things in perspective my stats are a 3.51/156(155 first take) currently. I believe my new LSAT score will be an improvement but I'd be shocked if it was much more than a 160(I'm predicting a 158 or 159). I am also Hispanic of non Mexican heritage. What do you guys think my chances are of getting in via ED? Is it a pipe dream or did I make the right decision?

In case anyone's wondering the other schools I'm applying to are UCONN, Kentucky, Cardozo, Brooklyn and CUNY(with in state tuition). Since I'll probably have no new score in 48 hours and I'm going through pre Grey Day anxiety I thought there wouldn't be harm in posting this thread without knowing my third score. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it comes in! Also to the rest of the September LSAT takers, best of luck, that test IMO was abnormally hard so I hope we get a curve that reflects that!

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:30 am

What kind of law do you want to practice in VA? That's a pretty key detail to leave out.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Bob loblaw law blog » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:13 am

Ferrisjso wrote:Well I'm expecting my third and final LSAT score back on Monday and I've been working on my applications. During the process, I've decided to apply to William and Mary early decision. I have a better chance of getting in there, then my other two top choices(UMich and Vandy) and if I get in Early Decision I would get a full scholarship whereas even If I got in RD, I almost certainly wouldn't receive enough money to go. I love William and Mary, it really seems like a good fit and the Northern Virginia area seems to be a nice area to practice in. Is giving up the (admittedly slim, don't worry I don't need a reality check on that)chance to go to Vandy and UMich (almost certainly at sticker) worth it? I'm also applying to Wash U because I heard wonderful things about scholarships from them on here (and they gave me a fee waiver while most T20 schools are pretty strict on that).

To put things in perspective my stats are a 3.51/156(155 first take) currently. I believe my new LSAT score will be an improvement but I'd be shocked if it was much more than a 160(I'm predicting a 158 or 159). I am also Hispanic of non Mexican heritage. What do you guys think my chances are of getting in via ED? Is it a pipe dream or did I make the right decision?

In case anyone's wondering the other schools I'm applying to are UCONN, Kentucky, Cardozo, Brooklyn and CUNY(with in state tuition). Since I'll probably have no new score in 48 hours and I'm going through pre Grey Day anxiety I thought there wouldn't be harm in posting this thread without knowing my third score. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it comes in! Also to the rest of the September LSAT takers, best of luck, that test IMO was abnormally hard so I hope we get a curve that reflects that!


Ed isn't gonna make up for stats that far below median probably. That said, retaking is always an option and your only around 7 questions away from being a solid candidate. Wait til scores come out and evaluate then.

Just a heads up: William and Mary is in Williamsburg, not northern Virginia. I don't doubt that you could get to Nova with a degree from W and M, but my (completely subjective) experience has been that most of thier grads end up in central va (Richmond) or the Hampton roads area.

do you live in VA/could you establish residency here fairly easily? In state tuition is a relatively good deal at W and M and there's a few other decent schools that could get you to NOVA with solid scholarships if you can raise your LSAT 4 points or so (gmu, W and L). Due to the way admissions/scholarships are tilted in favor of residents Getting residency might be worth it youre set on w and m enough to apply early (but only if you get your LSAT up)

Unfortunately, some of the schools you listed are near impossible with those scores. As a rule, unless you're above one median you're unlikely to get in.

Fair warning:northern Virginia has a certain reputation for being kind of suburban hell... But hey, obviously plenty of people don't mind that and maybe you're one of them!

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:04 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:What kind of law do you want to practice in VA? That's a pretty key detail to leave out.


I'm open to several kinds, although tax right now is far and away in the lead. Part of what attracted me to W+M is they have seem to have more focus on federal taxation than any other schools do I'm applying to do.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:21 pm

Bob loblaw law blog wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Well I'm expecting my third and final LSAT score back on Monday and I've been working on my applications. During the process, I've decided to apply to William and Mary early decision. I have a better chance of getting in there, then my other two top choices(UMich and Vandy) and if I get in Early Decision I would get a full scholarship whereas even If I got in RD, I almost certainly wouldn't receive enough money to go. I love William and Mary, it really seems like a good fit and the Northern Virginia area seems to be a nice area to practice in. Is giving up the (admittedly slim, don't worry I don't need a reality check on that)chance to go to Vandy and UMich (almost certainly at sticker) worth it? I'm also applying to Wash U because I heard wonderful things about scholarships from them on here (and they gave me a fee waiver while most T20 schools are pretty strict on that).

To put things in perspective my stats are a 3.51/156(155 first take) currently. I believe my new LSAT score will be an improvement but I'd be shocked if it was much more than a 160(I'm predicting a 158 or 159). I am also Hispanic of non Mexican heritage. What do you guys think my chances are of getting in via ED? Is it a pipe dream or did I make the right decision?

In case anyone's wondering the other schools I'm applying to are UCONN, Kentucky, Cardozo, Brooklyn and CUNY(with in state tuition). Since I'll probably have no new score in 48 hours and I'm going through pre Grey Day anxiety I thought there wouldn't be harm in posting this thread without knowing my third score. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it comes in! Also to the rest of the September LSAT takers, best of luck, that test IMO was abnormally hard so I hope we get a curve that reflects that!


Ed isn't gonna make up for stats that far below median probably. That said, retaking is always an option and your only around 7 questions away from being a solid candidate. Wait til scores come out and evaluate then.

Just a heads up: William and Mary is in Williamsburg, not northern Virginia. I don't doubt that you could get to Nova with a degree from W and M, but my (completely subjective) experience has been that most of thier grads end up in central va (Richmond) or the Hampton roads area.

do you live in VA/could you establish residency here fairly easily? In state tuition is a relatively good deal at W and M and there's a few other decent schools that could get you to NOVA with solid scholarships if you can raise your LSAT 4 points or so (gmu, W and L). Due to the way admissions/scholarships are tilted in favor of residents Getting residency might be worth it youre set on w and m enough to apply early (but only if you get your LSAT up)

Unfortunately, some of the schools you listed are near impossible with those scores. As a rule, unless you're above one median you're unlikely to get in.

Fair warning:northern Virginia has a certain reputation for being kind of suburban hell... But hey, obviously plenty of people don't mind that and maybe you're one of them!


I do not live in Virginia, I live in NYC. I've taken the test three times and I'm not waiting a year to retake a fourth time. If T1 schools I'm applying to don't work out, I will either go to the T2 school that offers me the most money or CUNY if no T2 school offers me enough. With instate tuition and a scholarship, I could end up going to CUNY for 5,000 a year. However the school is almost entirely focused on PI and I would have no future in tax. PI is my second choice for practice area so I'm more than open to the idea, but I'd still rather pursue tax law at W+M. W+M also has a very historical focus, which as a history buff is something I'd enjoy greatly while CUNY is in an environment I'm not fond of to say the least. LIC might get better in the future but as of this moment it resembles a game of the sims when everything is a construction site. I've heard nothing but positive things about NOVA and after NYC, I'm of the opinion anything would be an improvement. I've also heard that the median lawyer salary in NOVA is considerably higher than nationwide from another poster I was talking to on here. I wouldn't mind Richmond/Williamsburg/Hampton Roads either, but I'd heard that the main area W+M places in(from years of lurking on here before becoming a 0L) in is NOVA(rather than DC like some other people thought it might). It's proximity to DC and the historical sites in Virginia also make it appealing(not professionally per say but rather in terms of living in the area so I can visit all the museums etc) Besides that I either want to practice in TN/KY or stay in NYC/Connecticut. One school I was considering starting a last minute application to was the University of Richmond. You seem quite knowledgeable on VA, what is your opinion of them? GMU and W+L seem a little to conservative for me(I'm very politically liberal) and don't seem to be as good a fit for me as W+M, nor as highly regarded(W+M was ranked 24th a few years ago).

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Bob loblaw law blog » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:24 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
Bob loblaw law blog wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Well I'm expecting my third and final LSAT score back on Monday and I've been working on my applications. During the process, I've decided to apply to William and Mary early decision. I have a better chance of getting in there, then my other two top choices(UMich and Vandy) and if I get in Early Decision I would get a full scholarship whereas even If I got in RD, I almost certainly wouldn't receive enough money to go. I love William and Mary, it really seems like a good fit and the Northern Virginia area seems to be a nice area to practice in. Is giving up the (admittedly slim, don't worry I don't need a reality check on that)chance to go to Vandy and UMich (almost certainly at sticker) worth it? I'm also applying to Wash U because I heard wonderful things about scholarships from them on here (and they gave me a fee waiver while most T20 schools are pretty strict on that).

To put things in perspective my stats are a 3.51/156(155 first take) currently. I believe my new LSAT score will be an improvement but I'd be shocked if it was much more than a 160(I'm predicting a 158 or 159). I am also Hispanic of non Mexican heritage. What do you guys think my chances are of getting in via ED? Is it a pipe dream or did I make the right decision?

In case anyone's wondering the other schools I'm applying to are UCONN, Kentucky, Cardozo, Brooklyn and CUNY(with in state tuition). Since I'll probably have no new score in 48 hours and I'm going through pre Grey Day anxiety I thought there wouldn't be harm in posting this thread without knowing my third score. I'll be sure to let everyone know when it comes in! Also to the rest of the September LSAT takers, best of luck, that test IMO was abnormally hard so I hope we get a curve that reflects that!


Ed isn't gonna make up for stats that far below median probably. That said, retaking is always an option and your only around 7 questions away from being a solid candidate. Wait til scores come out and evaluate then.

Just a heads up: William and Mary is in Williamsburg, not northern Virginia. I don't doubt that you could get to Nova with a degree from W and M, but my (completely subjective) experience has been that most of thier grads end up in central va (Richmond) or the Hampton roads area.

do you live in VA/could you establish residency here fairly easily? In state tuition is a relatively good deal at W and M and there's a few other decent schools that could get you to NOVA with solid scholarships if you can raise your LSAT 4 points or so (gmu, W and L). Due to the way admissions/scholarships are tilted in favor of residents Getting residency might be worth it youre set on w and m enough to apply early (but only if you get your LSAT up)

Unfortunately, some of the schools you listed are near impossible with those scores. As a rule, unless you're above one median you're unlikely to get in.

Fair warning:northern Virginia has a certain reputation for being kind of suburban hell... But hey, obviously plenty of people don't mind that and maybe you're one of them!


I do not live in Virginia, I live in NYC. I've taken the test three times and I'm not waiting a year to retake a fourth time. If T1 schools I'm applying to don't work out, I will either go to the T2 school that offers me the most money or CUNY if no T2 school offers me enough. With instate tuition and a scholarship, I could end up going to CUNY for 5,000 a year. However the school is almost entirely focused on PI and I would have no future in tax. PI is my second choice for practice area so I'm more than open to the idea, but I'd still rather pursue tax law at W+M. W+M also has a very historical focus, which as a history buff is something I'd enjoy greatly while CUNY is in an environment I'm not fond of to say the least. LIC might get better in the future but as of this moment it resembles a game of the sims when everything is a construction site. I've heard nothing but positive things about NOVA and after NYC, I'm of the opinion anything would be an improvement. I've also heard that the median lawyer salary in NOVA is considerably higher than nationwide from another poster I was talking to on here. I wouldn't mind Richmond/Williamsburg/Hampton Roads either, but I'd heard that the main area W+M places in(from years of lurking on here before becoming a 0L) in is NOVA(rather than DC like some other people thought it might). It's proximity to DC and the historical sites in Virginia also make it appealing(not professionally per say but rather in terms of living in the area so I can visit all the museums etc) Besides that I either want to practice in TN/KY or stay in NYC/Connecticut. One school I was considering starting a last minute application to was the University of Richmond. You seem quite knowledgeable on VA, what is your opinion of them? GMU and W+L seem a little to conservative for me(I'm very politically liberal) and don't seem to be as good a fit for me as W+M, nor as highly regarded(W+M was ranked 24th a few years ago).


I may be letting my personal distain for NOVA show haha. I'd certainly agree that the jobs there are well paying and many enjoy living there, but keep in mind that the area also has a massive cost of living difference from the rest of the state. I personally have sworn to never end up there, but thats mostly because I don't fit in there in the slightest. I wouldn't mind NYC so we may just be very different people haha.

Williamsburg is close to DC as Ithaca is close to NYC. It's "close" in relative terms but it's also a hellish 4 hour drive up 95.

U of R is absolutely worth an app if you want to live in Richmond long term. If you don't want that, I wouldn't bother. If I rep my home town a bit, Richmond is by far the place I'd want to be if I was living in VA (C-ville is a close second) W and L was also ranked much higher recently as well, and I'd expect them to come back faster than W and M (though I also prefer the latter school) just due to thier ability to toss money at applicants.

I've been to about every corner of the state and I'd be glad to talk more about VA with you, but would prefer to do so by pm to keep at least a bit if anonymity on this board. Feel free to message me.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:36 pm

I'm still a little confused. Where do you want to practice tax law? A big firm in DC? A mid-sized firm in Richmond?

But yeah, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your numbers. You absolutely can wait a year and retake, and you owe it to yourself to do that (or to change your goals).

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:I'm still a little confused. Where do you want to practice tax law? A big firm in DC? A mid-sized firm in Richmond?

But yeah, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your numbers. You absolutely can wait a year and retake, and you owe it to yourself to do that (or to change your goals).


Well I'm not sure where exactly I'll practice yet. It depends on how good my cycle is. Basically I'll go to Tennessee, NOVA or Kentucky or I'll stay at home in NYC. I have a short list of places I'll practice but where I practice will be determined by my cycle. If I go to Vandy I'll be looking to stay in Nashville, if I go to W+M I'll be looking to practice in Northern Virginia otherwise I probably plan on staying in New York or Connecticut(which is where I go to school and am open to staying). I love Nashville, NOVA seems like a good fit and in NYC I'd prefer to practice in either the outer boroughs or the part of Manhattan where Cardozo is located(Southstreet seaport etc) Rest of Manhattan isn't really appealing to me as it's a little too urban.

Again I have a back up plan if I don't get into one of the T1 schools, I'll either go to the T2 that gives the most money or if they don't give me enough I'll go to CUNY which is an incredible bargain and a good fit for me ideologically(the surrounding environment is horrible though). So I guess I will chance my goals based on my new score and where I get in/receive money. I understand the whole retaking school of thought that many on TLS subscribe to, I've retaken twice myself already but I can't understand putting off your life another year to retake a test for a fourth time, unless you either have no good options or are certain that you can do considerably better. I don't expect a dramatic increase if I were to retake a fourth time the same way I don't expect a gigantic increase from my third retake(3-5 points is probably where I'm at). I put my best effort forward for this last LSAT and I'm totally comfortable with that. Yeh the test was the hardest one I took but at the end of the day I feel like that will be mostly reflected in the curve and that doing it a fourth time just won't yield enough points to be worth it. I've taken dozens of practice tests and I've never scored higher than a 164(which I only did once) so If I get a few points off of this retake I'll be perfectly satisfied.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby BobBoblaw » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:25 am

IIRC, some schools only ask whether you are Latino, and not whether you are Mexican. These schools are more likely to consider you An URM, and so you may be able to outperform your numbers there. Best of luck on your upcoming score!

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:05 am

BobBoblaw wrote:IIRC, some schools only ask whether you are Latino, and not whether you are Mexican. These schools are more likely to consider you An URM, and so you may be able to outperform your numbers there. Best of luck on your upcoming score!


Thanks, I really appreciate it!

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:04 am

Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm still a little confused. Where do you want to practice tax law? A big firm in DC? A mid-sized firm in Richmond?

But yeah, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your numbers. You absolutely can wait a year and retake, and you owe it to yourself to do that (or to change your goals).


Well I'm not sure where exactly I'll practice yet. It depends on how good my cycle is. Basically I'll go to Tennessee, NOVA or Kentucky or I'll stay at home in NYC. I have a short list of places I'll practice but where I practice will be determined by my cycle. If I go to Vandy I'll be looking to stay in Nashville, if I go to W+M I'll be looking to practice in Northern Virginia otherwise I probably plan on staying in New York or Connecticut(which is where I go to school and am open to staying). I love Nashville, NOVA seems like a good fit and in NYC I'd prefer to practice in either the outer boroughs or the part of Manhattan where Cardozo is located(Southstreet seaport etc) Rest of Manhattan isn't really appealing to me as it's a little too urban.


But that didn't answer my question at all. I didn't just ask where you wanted to practice in terms of region. I asked what kind of firm you want to practice in.

You should also look at your employment chances at one of the T2-4 schools in New York. Cardozo may end up being cheap, but they give you a 33% chance of not even being employed as a lawyer on graduation. CUNY is great for staying in local NY public interest work, but if your primary interest is tax law, switching to a strictly PI calling is not going to be as easy as you appear to think it will be.

As your score currently stands, you don't have the numbers to get in to W&M, let along Vanderbilt. It also seems like you haven't done enough legwork researching what tracks tax attorneys take, since your focus is entirely on region. Yes, it's good to be aware that schools are tied to regions, but if you want to practice corporate tax law, W&M is not likely to be able to set you up with a job there. If you want to hang out a shingle and do tax law for the local general store in Anywhere, USA, then their local school will be fine, as long as you understand that your income will not be the median income for lawyers in the region.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:18 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
cavalier1138 wrote:I'm still a little confused. Where do you want to practice tax law? A big firm in DC? A mid-sized firm in Richmond?

But yeah, you're shooting yourself in the foot with your numbers. You absolutely can wait a year and retake, and you owe it to yourself to do that (or to change your goals).


Well I'm not sure where exactly I'll practice yet. It depends on how good my cycle is. Basically I'll go to Tennessee, NOVA or Kentucky or I'll stay at home in NYC. I have a short list of places I'll practice but where I practice will be determined by my cycle. If I go to Vandy I'll be looking to stay in Nashville, if I go to W+M I'll be looking to practice in Northern Virginia otherwise I probably plan on staying in New York or Connecticut(which is where I go to school and am open to staying). I love Nashville, NOVA seems like a good fit and in NYC I'd prefer to practice in either the outer boroughs or the part of Manhattan where Cardozo is located(Southstreet seaport etc) Rest of Manhattan isn't really appealing to me as it's a little too urban.


But that didn't answer my question at all. I didn't just ask where you wanted to practice in terms of region. I asked what kind of firm you want to practice in.

You should also look at your employment chances at one of the T2-4 schools in New York. Cardozo may end up being cheap, but they give you a 33% chance of not even being employed as a lawyer on graduation. CUNY is great for staying in local NY public interest work, but if your primary interest is tax law, switching to a strictly PI calling is not going to be as easy as you appear to think it will be.

As your score currently stands, you don't have the numbers to get in to W&M, let along Vanderbilt. It also seems like you haven't done enough legwork researching what tracks tax attorneys take, since your focus is entirely on region. Yes, it's good to be aware that schools are tied to regions, but if you want to practice corporate tax law, W&M is not likely to be able to set you up with a job there. If you want to hang out a shingle and do tax law for the local general store in Anywhere, USA, then their local school will be fine, as long as you understand that your income will not be the median income for lawyers in the region.


I'm open to firms of all different sizes. I'm also open to government work. I don't really want to box myself in yet. I don't think I'm going to go solo though. While I'm going into law school with an idea of the things I'm more interested in, I am far from committed to any type of law. I just love taxes. PI also sounds good. I'm not closing the door on health law either.

In terms of the other schools in NY, I have various reasons for not applying to them. For the other T3-T4 schools, I'd just rather go to CUNY and get the in state tuition. For SJU(which looks like the seventh best law school in the state) it would be really convenient location wise and I could even stay home but apparently they are brutal with eliminating scholarships, so even if I got a good deal the odds I would lose it are quite good. Brooklyn is slightly better(employment number wise not USN) and they didn't reduce a single person's scholarship last year. Also with their USN plunge last year this seems like an oppurtune moment to punch higher than my numbers with them in terms of scholarship money. For SUNY, according to their 509's they give out virtually no scholarship money and their instate tuition is considerably higher than CUNY's. For Syracuse, apparently the curve is really bad and same as SJU they have to many stipulations on scholarships. SUNY and Syracuse are also both upstate so skipping out on dorming is also out of the question. Both Brooklyn and Cardozo are commutable and are more highly regarded than any of the schools I just mentioned(in terms of non Big law employment they are competitive with Fordham). Out of curiosity what did you mean by General Store, USA?

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:54 pm

Okay I have finished my law school applications. My stats are still a 3.51 and a 156. I am non URM Hispanic.

Here are the 8 schools I have applied to. Chances, and how much money do you think I can recieve in my best case scenario? I also know I have almost no chance at Michigan and Vandy, I'm mainly enquiring about the rest. So what are my chances?

Michigan
Vandy
William and Mary(early decision)
Washington and Lee
UCONN
Cardozo
Brooklyn Law
CUNY

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby ml2srosie » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:27 pm

Michigan (slim chance, unlikely $)
Vandy (slim chance, unlikely $)
William and Mary(early decision) (you will most likely get waitlisted and put into the RD pool)
Washington and Lee (50/50 chance, probably offered $15-20g)
UCONN you will get in and probably be offered a decent scholarship, unsure of range
Cardozo you will get in and probably be offered between 60-80g
Brooklyn Law you will get in and probably be offered the same as Cardozo
CUNY you will get in, doubt you will be offered much money since in-state tuition is already super low....CUNY is a very risky choice though unless you are 100% committed to public interest law

I put my tentative thoughts above but I need to know more. Your answers to the questions below may sway my opinions.
First off, did any of those schools offer to waive your app fee? You would know by either seeing "waived" on the front page of the application site or "waived (CRS)" when you go to check out.
Secondly, do you have a solid PS? DS?
Do you have any work experience?

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:44 am

ml2srosie wrote:Michigan (slim chance, unlikely $)
Vandy (slim chance, unlikely $)
William and Mary(early decision) (you will most likely get waitlisted and put into the RD pool)
Washington and Lee (50/50 chance, probably offered $15-20g)
UCONN you will get in and probably be offered a decent scholarship, unsure of range
Cardozo you will get in and probably be offered between 60-80g
Brooklyn Law you will get in and probably be offered the same as Cardozo
CUNY you will get in, doubt you will be offered much money since in-state tuition is already super low....CUNY is a very risky choice though unless you are 100% committed to public interest law

I put my tentative thoughts above but I need to know more. Your answers to the questions below may sway my opinions.
First off, did any of those schools offer to waive your app fee? You would know by either seeing "waived" on the front page of the application site or "waived (CRS)" when you go to check out.
Secondly, do you have a solid PS? DS?
Do you have any work experience?


Okay, here are the answers to your above questions!

Of the schools above, both Brooklyn and Washington and Lee didn't charge application fees. I received fee waivers from all the other schools above except CUNY(they do not offer fee waivers). However if you are asking what schools offered to waive my app fee unsolicited(which I get the sense you are) ,that would be only Michigan and Cardozo. Both those schools actually offered to waive my application fee last year, despite me being a junior in college and not a 0L. I then solicited a fee waiver for Cardozo, this application cycle. Michigan, however sent me another unsolicited fee waiver. It is very possible that the reason for the Michigan fee waivers is because I filled out my information for them at a law school fair several years ago. Then again, I haven't received unsolicited fee waivers from any of the other schools that I showed interest in at that law school fair.

I believe I have a solid personal statement. I wrote about my favorite racehorse and how he inspired me to never give up. I was told by my pre law advisors, that adcoms were looking for "different" and I believed that was a pretty unique topic. The only school I filled out a diversity statement for was Vanderbilt, where I focused on the difference between growing up in a diverse environment and the overwhelmingly white, wealthy undergrad I attended. I also filled out an explanation for my poor LSAT results for Michigan, which I feel like I did extremely well.

I have alot of work experience but almost none of it is paid. I have a long resume of unpaid work on political campaigns, however. Some of this was tied to my political science coursework in undergrad, and the rest was local.

Your predictions were actually more generous than I expected! I was always operating under the belief that I would be receiving considerably less money from Cardozo than Brooklyn. Maybe I will be able to go to Cardozo after all(Cardozo is a commutable school for me)! Also what do you think my chances are in the W&M RD pool, assuming I don't get in ED like you predicted?

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:01 am

Ferrisjso wrote:Your predictions were actually more generous than I expected! I was always operating under the belief that I would be receiving considerably less money from Cardozo than Brooklyn. Maybe I will be able to go to Cardozo after all(Cardozo is a commutable school for me)! Also what do you think my chances are in the W&M RD pool, assuming I don't get in ED like you predicted?


Unless they've changed their policies recently, Cardozo's scholarships are generally conditional. So be careful about that. You don't want to take any size scholarship with a stipulation attached.

I am also much less confident about your chances at Michigan and Vanderbilt than the prior poster. Your LSAT alone takes you out of the running for both schools, and I'm more than a little confused by Michigan's fee waiver because of how low your numbers are for their medians.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby ml2srosie » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:47 pm

I agree that Mich and Vandy are highly unlikely, but there is always the 2-3% chance. Sometimes URM cycles are completely unpredictable (I believe you did say you are a URM, but I could be mixing you up with 10000 other posts). As for the Mich fee waiver, one of my best friends has a 3.63, 155 (URM) and Mich waived her fee (totally unsolicited). Maybe they waive fees for every URM with a 60th percentile score or above? I know 155 equals a 63rd percentile rank for the Sept 2016 LSAT. In any case, fee waivers are auspicious but they certainly do not guarantee admission.

As for Cardozo and Bklyn, I would actually pick Bklyn over Cardozo if presented with equal scholarships. Cardozo is, as cavalier mentioned, notorious for conditional scholarships (scholarships that carry a bunch of stipulations and are often not renewed for 2L or 3L if you do not meet those stipulations). Bklyn does not do conditionals and actually, has a better big law placement rate than Cardozo. Though again, I am NOT saying either of those schools guarantee you big law, you do have a better shot coming from Bk than Cardozo. If you don't believe me, there is an Above the Law article about it from spring 2016. I am too lazy to find the exact link now, but if you search "new york law schools" "big law" it comes up.

I would not go to UConn personally because I think it is a dead end school in a lot of ways. I can elaborate more if you'd like. W&M and W&L are great places, but as someone else said, their reach is very, very limited. You will likely be pigeonholed to southern VA and possibly parts of WV/NC if you're lucky. If you're in the top 10%, DC might be possible, but you never can forecast how you'll do once you get to LS.

As for W&M RD, I would say your chance is 15% or so and you probably wouldn't find out until June. W&M can be pretty snobby about their preference for mid 160s (or at the very least, low 160s) LSAT scores.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:23 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:Your predictions were actually more generous than I expected! I was always operating under the belief that I would be receiving considerably less money from Cardozo than Brooklyn. Maybe I will be able to go to Cardozo after all(Cardozo is a commutable school for me)! Also what do you think my chances are in the W&M RD pool, assuming I don't get in ED like you predicted?


Unless they've changed their policies recently, Cardozo's scholarships are generally conditional. So be careful about that. You don't want to take any size scholarship with a stipulation attached.

I am also much less confident about your chances at Michigan and Vanderbilt than the prior poster. Your LSAT alone takes you out of the running for both schools, and I'm more than a little confused by Michigan's fee waiver because of how low your numbers are for their medians.


Yeah, I will not go to a school that offers me a scholarship with stipulations(unless it's Michigan or Vandy and I would have probably went for sticker anyway) unless that stipulation is academic good standing. The reasons I applied to all these schools is that they either didn't do conditional scholarships, or gave out conditional scholarships that they almost never took away. According to Cardozo's 509, they gave out 160 conditional scholarships but only 16 were reduced or eliminated both times. So that to me didn't seem too bad. I understand my chances at Michigan and Vandy are slim. The main reason I applied to Michigan is because it looks wonderful and I'll never know if the waiver meant anything if I don't, apply, right? Vandy is my dream school so I feel like I owed myself to apply unless admission was impossible.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:39 am

ml2srosie wrote:I agree that Mich and Vandy are highly unlikely, but there is always the 2-3% chance. Sometimes URM cycles are completely unpredictable (I believe you did say you are a URM, but I could be mixing you up with 10000 other posts). As for the Mich fee waiver, one of my best friends has a 3.63, 155 (URM) and Mich waived her fee (totally unsolicited). Maybe they waive fees for every URM with a 60th percentile score or above? I know 155 equals a 63rd percentile rank for the Sept 2016 LSAT. In any case, fee waivers are auspicious but they certainly do not guarantee admission.

As for Cardozo and Bklyn, I would actually pick Bklyn over Cardozo if presented with equal scholarships. Cardozo is, as cavalier mentioned, notorious for conditional scholarships (scholarships that carry a bunch of stipulations and are often not renewed for 2L or 3L if you do not meet those stipulations). Bklyn does not do conditionals and actually, has a better big law placement rate than Cardozo. Though again, I am NOT saying either of those schools guarantee you big law, you do have a better shot coming from Bk than Cardozo. If you don't believe me, there is an Above the Law article about it from spring 2016. I am too lazy to find the exact link now, but if you search "new york law schools" "big law" it comes up.

I would not go to UConn personally because I think it is a dead end school in a lot of ways. I can elaborate more if you'd like. W&M and W&L are great places, but as someone else said, their reach is very, very limited. You will likely be pigeonholed to southern VA and possibly parts of WV/NC if you're lucky. If you're in the top 10%, DC might be possible, but you never can forecast how you'll do once you get to LS.

As for W&M RD, I would say your chance is 15% or so and you probably wouldn't find out until June. W&M can be pretty snobby about their preference for mid 160s (or at the very least, low 160s) LSAT scores.


I am a non Mexican Hispanic(South American). I am also half white but I identify as Hispanic. I know that's technically not URM, but I've been told it gives a smaller boost(someone on here a few months ago called it soft URM?).

In regards to Brooklyn and Cardozo, financially Brooklyn has always looked like the better choice. I actually applied to the two year program so if I commute it could end up being cheaper than CUNY! Cardozo is appealing to me because it would be a far easier commute than Brooklyn Law. With Brooklyn, I might end up having to dorm if the commute ends up being undoable. However, according to the standard 509's I think you're mistaken about Cardozo, Brooklyn and conditional scholarships, at least currently. Cardozo the last two years has apparently offered 160 conditional scholarships and reduced or eliminated 16 both years(the year before they offered 146 and reduced or eliminated 14). Brooklyn on the other hand has offered 272 and 270 the last two years and reduced or eliminated 32 and 45 respectively. So I actually think Brooklyn is more risky in that regard. Either way, I will try to negotiate the conditions off. I think this is more likely with Brooklyn because I am above both medians where with Cardozo I am above only one. Brooklyn also had a serious rankings slide the last year, so I'm hopeful they will be more generous with money than they were the previous two years. I am hopeful for the same reason with W&L.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with you on UCONN. However, I attended UG in Connecticut and if I stay with a friend and they offer me serious money, it could end up making sense.

When should I figure out if I am getting into W+M ED or not? If I do not get into W&M ED it will make no(financial) sense to attend and a June acceptance wouldn't change that(unless they gave me a scholarship but I doubt they'd have any money left by then, would they?). Also what would you think my chances are for W+M ED? 5%, 10%? For W+M/ W+L i was thinking more of practicing in NOVA, or bringing the degree back to NYC.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby toplaw01 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:37 pm

OP, I think you have a good chance in W&L . W&L employment's outcome of 2015 class was good. They placed #3 around VA,DC,MD in employment. I think you better off apply both W&M and W&L. W&L seems to get back their ranking faster than W&M since the LSAT average of W&M 2019 class was 162 (-1) comparing to the last year. Both schools places well in VA,DC,MD and somewhat in NYC :o

Michigan: Out
Vandy: Out
William and Mary(early decision): you will probably be put in the waitlist
Washington and Lee : 30% I think. They try to boost their average GPA and LSAT this year.
UCONN: probably in
Cardozo : 80% in with small scholarship
Brooklyn Law: 80% in with marginal scholarship
CUNY: 99% in with small scholarship

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:12 pm

toplaw01 wrote:OP, I think you have a good chance in W&L . W&L employment's outcome of 2015 class was good. They placed #3 around VA,DC,MD in employment. I think you better off apply both W&M and W&L. W&L seems to get back their ranking faster than W&M since the LSAT average of W&M 2019 class was 162 (-1) comparing to the last year. Both schools places well in VA,DC,MD and somewhat in NYC :o

Michigan: Out
Vandy: Out
William and Mary(early decision): you will probably be put in the waitlist
Washington and Lee : 30% I think. They try to boost their average GPA and LSAT this year.
UCONN: probably in
Cardozo : 80% in with small scholarship
Brooklyn Law: 80% in with marginal scholarship
CUNY: 99% in with small scholarship


I hope Rosies predictions are a little more close to being true, under your scenario the only school ill be able to afford is CUNY! Also, yeah the schools on the list are the ones I've applied to. The only other ones I'm considering sending apps to(but probably won't) are Richmond, Quinnipiac and WUSTL.
Last edited by Ferrisjso on Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:15 pm

Ferrisjso wrote:
toplaw01 wrote:OP, I think you have a good chance in W&L . W&L employment's outcome of 2015 class was good. They placed #3 around VA,DC,MD in employment. I think you better off apply both W&M and W&L. W&L seems to get back their ranking faster than W&M since the LSAT average of W&M 2019 class was 162 (-1) comparing to the last year. Both schools places well in VA,DC,MD and somewhat in NYC :o

Michigan: Out
Vandy: Out
William and Mary(early decision): you will probably be put in the waitlist
Washington and Lee : 30% I think. They try to boost their average GPA and LSAT this year.
UCONN: probably in
Cardozo : 80% in with small scholarship
Brooklyn Law: 80% in with marginal scholarship
CUNY: 99% in with small scholarship


I hope Rosies predictions are a little more close to being true, under your scenario the only school ill be able to afford is CUNY!


Huh. If only there were something you could do to not only increase your chances at getting in to these (and better) schools but also decrease the amount of money you'd likely have to spend there...

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Ferrisjso

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby Ferrisjso » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:40 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Ferrisjso wrote:
toplaw01 wrote:OP, I think you have a good chance in W&L . W&L employment's outcome of 2015 class was good. They placed #3 around VA,DC,MD in employment. I think you better off apply both W&M and W&L. W&L seems to get back their ranking faster than W&M since the LSAT average of W&M 2019 class was 162 (-1) comparing to the last year. Both schools places well in VA,DC,MD and somewhat in NYC :o

Michigan: Out
Vandy: Out
William and Mary(early decision): you will probably be put in the waitlist
Washington and Lee : 30% I think. They try to boost their average GPA and LSAT this year.
UCONN: probably in
Cardozo : 80% in with small scholarship
Brooklyn Law: 80% in with marginal scholarship
CUNY: 99% in with small scholarship


I hope Rosies predictions are a little more close to being true, under your scenario the only school ill be able to afford is CUNY!


Huh. If only there were something you could do to not only increase your chances at getting in to these (and better) schools but also decrease the amount of money you'd likely have to spend there...


I'd like to request that this thread stay focused on my choices given my current numbers. I have retaken the LSAT twice now and have decided not to wait another year to retake it again. I don't believe the LSAT plays to my academic strengths(something I wrote a great deal about in several LSAT addendum's) and I honestly like my chances of killing my first semester better than my chances of getting an LSAT score in the 160s. I know that is not the case for everyone, but for me it is. I already retook the test twice, with improved studying methods each time (and received a grand total of one point from that effort) and retaking another time to me simply isn't worth staying home doing nothing for a year. From my years lurking, I've seen to many question threads taken down by retake badgering. I've read all those threads, I'm well aware of the arguments(which is why I retook the test twice) for retaking. I don't want to get into an endless debate about the merit of LSAT retaking, I want to discuss my chances to get into these schools and how much money they are likely to give me. Therefore, I ask that this thread be kept on the subject of my chances for the 8 schools I applied to.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby cavalier1138 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:20 am

Fair enough. The only thing I'll add is that an addendum complaining about how the LSAT doesn't "play to your strengths" isn't going to help, and it's likely going to hurt. The adcomms will be able to figure out that the LSAT isn't your strong suit, and since this is a numbers game, they aren't going to care very much at all.

Drop the addendum, and enjoy paying sticker.

Edit: I also feel ethically obliged to remind you that you are going to be graded on a curve in law school, and the skills the LSAT tests are precisely the skills that you'll be using on law school exams. I don't know how you've convinced yourself that you're going to outdo an entire class of people who are at least as smart as (if not smarter than) you, but you owe it to yourself to dunk your head in a reality bath. You aren't going to be at the top of the class at any of the schools you listed, assuming you get in.
Last edited by cavalier1138 on Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Early Decision W&M

Postby guynourmin » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:35 am

cavalier1138 wrote:an addendum complaining about how the LSAT doesn't "play to your strengths" isn't going to help, and it's likely going to hurt....

Drop the addendum, and enjoy paying sticker.



Sounds like they already submitted it to everyone! I agree, though, an addendum saying the lsat doesn't play to your academic strengths sounds like something adcoms might see as a red flag and could hurt an application.

If any apps have not been submitted, I strongly agree with Cavalier and the addendum should be dropped!



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