3.0 from Dartmouth versus 3.0 from state school Forum

[soj]

These threads seethe with posts like "I went to a good school and think it should/might/will make up for my lower GPA for law school admissions!!!" and "I went to a crappy UG and think it should/might/will never matter again now that I go to a good law school...EVER!" Neither's correct.

Your UG's not going to make up for a lackluster GPA when applying to law school. That said, I can't see a situation where it'll hurt you, in LS admissions or life in general. Get over the superiority complex and move on.

Your UG will be on your big law bio and resume for the rest of your career. Even if you go to YLS, people will always wonder why you decided to go to Eastern Mountain State Junior College. That's just the way humans work. Get over the inferiority complex and move on.

For the record, I think this is probably TCR. I can lol at the butthurt on both sides and still take the middle ground.

[Curious1]

These threads seethe with posts like "I went to a good school and think it should/might/will make up for my lower GPA for law school admissions!!!" and "I went to a crappy UG and think it should/might/will never matter again now that I go to a good law school...EVER!" Neither's correct.

Your UG's not going to make up for a lackluster GPA when applying to law school. That said, I can't see a situation where it'll hurt you, in LS admissions or life in general. Get over the superiority complex and move on.

Your UG will be on your big law bio and resume for the rest of your career. Even if you go to YLS, people will always wonder why you decided to go to Eastern Mountain State Junior College. That's just the way humans work. Get over the inferiority complex and move on.

For the record, I think this is probably TCR. I can lol at the butthurt on both sides and still take the middle ground.

I INVENTED taking the middle ground ITT.

[paratactical]

I read your posts in Stewie's voice.

[Curious1]

I read your posts in Stewie's voice.

They're written to be read that way.

[badfish]

Five pages on this? REALLY?

[metaphobe]

I went to Stanford, and the law school advisor there provided me with a list of alumni admitted to various law schools and the average GPA/LSAT of admitted students for each school. The average numbers for Stanford grads who were admitted to HYSC were definitely lower than the officially released medians for these schools.

Shifting the focus away from strictly numbers in this discussion:
Having attended a prestigious undergrad also affords one a lot of opportunities to build up impressive softs. Having that school's name on your resume helps you land that competitive internship, which helps you get that impressive job, which helps you get that selective fellowship, etc. In this case, the name of the school itself may not be the deciding factor for adcoms, but great softs certainly don't hurt, especially with the whole holistic approach that top schools seem to have adopted.

Also, the faculty review process at some of the top six law schools might come into play here. Law professors tend to be alumni of prestigious undergrad and grad schools, and I imagine that their association or positive feelings towards some schools might contribute to at least some bias.

[LeBronBBall]

I went to a lower tier Ivy for UG. I have to say, there are certain jobs available to you because of the rank of UG: such as investment banking, sales and trading, and management consulting.

If someone is dead-set on breaking into high finance, one of the few options that individual has is to get into a top UG or transfer into it. One of my friends transferred into my college from a T 100 institution as a junior transfer, did pretty well at my college for one year, and got that coveted S & T analyst job during beginning of the senior year as a fixed income trader at a bulge bracket, with 130k starting out. He told me he wouldn't have had access to even the first round interviews had he not transferred to our school. (I know 2 more individuals who did this essentially same thing at my UG)

That said, going to top UG, from my experience, doesn't help you much outside of finance/ consulting placement, including graduate school admissions. (med or law school admissions) Not to mention that even at an Ivy, you better bust your as$ to land that sweet spot at Goldman IBD or S&T because the competition for those jobs are fierce at even top schools. One important thing my friend told me is the internship experience. He told me that he got an internship after sophomore year at a small hedge fund via heavy networking, and everything else from then was a cake. Just going to a top UG won't get you anything. You have to work for everything. (getting good GPA, networking, working on interviewing skills, etc)

[HeavenWood]

I went to a lower tier Ivy for UG. I have to say, there are certain jobs available to you because of the rank of UG: such as investment banking, sales and trading, and management consulting.

If someone is dead-set on breaking into high finance, one of the few options that individual has is to get into a top UG or transfer into it. One of my friends transferred into my college from a T 100 institution as a junior transfer, did pretty well at my college for one year, and got that coveted S & T analyst job during beginning of the senior year as a fixed income trader at a bulge bracket, with 130k starting out. He told me he wouldn't have had access to even the first round interviews had he not transferred to our school. (I know 2 more individuals who did this essentially same thing at my UG)

That said, going to top UG, from my experience, doesn't help you much outside of finance/ consulting placement, including graduate school admissions. (med or law school admissions) Not to mention that even at an Ivy, you better bust your as$ to land that sweet spot at Goldman IBD or S&T because the competition for those jobs are fierce at even top schools. One important thing my friend told me is the internship experience. He told me that he got an internship after sophomore year at a small hedge fund via heavy networking, and everything else from then was a cake. Just going to a top UG won't get you anything. You have to work for everything. (getting good GPA, networking, working on interviewing skills, etc)

We're talking about law school admissions, brah.

[LeBronBBall]

^

Yeah, but there has been debate about whether attending a top UG is helpful to one's future... and it is helpful if you want to go into finance/consulting, but not too much helpful if you are applying to law school.

Bottom line: 3.0 from Dartmouth - not looking too good for top law school admissions.

[Samara]

Does anything about this graph suggest that the degree-conferring institution matters?

Yes, indeed it does. I clicked on that graph and found these people:

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/utilitystepstool/jd - below medians but top 10 undergrad and PhD. Maybe it helped?
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/babayaga/jd - borderline stats for CCN, but got into NYU off waitlist. top 20 undergrad.
http://lawschoolnumbers.com/ilovemulch/jd - also borderline stats, top 15 undergrad and into NYU

case in point: I wonder if it DOES matter a bit for borderline candidates...??

All three of those have 2-4 years WE, so it's hard to say that UG prestige was the deciding factor there.

[Yaaaas2013]

Definitely a boost, but how big depends on a number of factors (in roughly the order of importance):

1. How elite is the law school? HYS will give far bigger boosts than regional schools. Why? They have to worry far less about their GPA ranges and are much more just looking for the best students.

2. How elite is your undergrad? You'll get a boost from HYP and Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore just about anywhere, and are likely to get *some* boost from the other ivies/top 10-20 liberal arts colleges + Unis ...but once you start dipping below that level your school quality may not make much of a difference. E.g. Cal State Fullerton may not be as prestigious as UC Davis, but don't expect to see much of a boost if you're attending the latter over the former. Factored into this is how known for grade inflation is your undergrad. Williams and Swarthmore--known for having deflated grades--will probably help you out on the margins a bit more than Stanford or Princeton--known for having inflated grades.

3. How high is your LSAT? Schools are more willing to forgive a low GPA from an elite institution if you have a high LSAT. If your LSAT is unimpressive, don't expect to see your GPA doing you many favors.

4. What was your major? What classes did you take? A low GPA in polisci isn't going to help nearly as much as a low GPA in engineering.

5. Do you have any GPA trends? If your freshman GPA was 1 point lower than your senior GPA, schools are more likely to forgive a low overall GPA and assume that your senior GPA is more indicative of your abilities.

Gaawd...I hope this is true.

[HeavenWood]

Oh boy, this thread needed to be revived.

[top30man]

Oh boy, this thread needed to be revived.

Necro ftw

[Ludo!]

Gaawd...I hope this is true.

It's not really but it is hilarious that you searched for this thread and necroed it

[justicefishy]

Definitely a boost, but how big depends on a number of factors (in roughly the order of importance):

1. How elite is the law school? HYS will give far bigger boosts than regional schools. Why? They have to worry far less about their GPA ranges and are much more just looking for the best students.

2. How elite is your undergrad? You'll get a boost from HYP and Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore just about anywhere, and are likely to get *some* boost from the other ivies/top 10-20 liberal arts colleges + Unis ...but once you start dipping below that level your school quality may not make much of a difference. E.g. Cal State Fullerton may not be as prestigious as UC Davis, but don't expect to see much of a boost if you're attending the latter over the former. Factored into this is how known for grade inflation is your undergrad. Williams and Swarthmore--known for having deflated grades--will probably help you out on the margins a bit more than Stanford or Princeton--known for having inflated grades.

3. How high is your LSAT? Schools are more willing to forgive a low GPA from an elite institution if you have a high LSAT. If your LSAT is unimpressive, don't expect to see your GPA doing you many favors.

4. What was your major? What classes did you take? A low GPA in polisci isn't going to help nearly as much as a low GPA in engineering.

5. Do you have any GPA trends? If your freshman GPA was 1 point lower than your senior GPA, schools are more likely to forgive a low overall GPA and assume that your senior GPA is more indicative of your abilities.

Gaawd...I hope this is true.

tl;dr version: If you're on the margins, it helps. I speak from personal experience here. I doubt I'd have been admitted to 2 of MVP (and waitlisted at 2 of CCN) if I hadn't gone to my undergrad (Swarthmore) given my numbers (in the profile, yo). That said, difficulty of major and undergrad prestige almost never matter in any other circumstance (exceptions exist, of course, but are rare and often require excellent recommendations to bring about). For the OP, find some good job to do between now and law school, kick the LSAT's ass, and ED to UVA.

[Bildungsroman]

lolol at Swarttthmore being preftigious. Here's a little tip: nobody is going to be impressed by how hard you claim your liberal arts college is.

"but grade deflation!"
Nobody.

[Blessedassurance]

lolol at Swarttthmore being preftigious. Here's a little tip: nobody is going to be impressed by how hard you claim your liberal arts college is.

"but grade deflation!"
Nobody.

Why are you so angry, man? Ease up, take up yoga or something, it's really not that serious. Laugh a little, go stick-up-your-anus-free for a while, it can be liberating.

[HeavenWood]

Definitely a boost, but how big depends on a number of factors (in roughly the order of importance):

1. How elite is the law school? HYS will give far bigger boosts than regional schools. Why? They have to worry far less about their GPA ranges and are much more just looking for the best students.

2. How elite is your undergrad? You'll get a boost from HYP and Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore just about anywhere, and are likely to get *some* boost from the other ivies/top 10-20 liberal arts colleges + Unis ...but once you start dipping below that level your school quality may not make much of a difference. E.g. Cal State Fullerton may not be as prestigious as UC Davis, but don't expect to see much of a boost if you're attending the latter over the former. Factored into this is how known for grade inflation is your undergrad. Williams and Swarthmore--known for having deflated grades--will probably help you out on the margins a bit more than Stanford or Princeton--known for having inflated grades.

3. How high is your LSAT? Schools are more willing to forgive a low GPA from an elite institution if you have a high LSAT. If your LSAT is unimpressive, don't expect to see your GPA doing you many favors.

4. What was your major? What classes did you take? A low GPA in polisci isn't going to help nearly as much as a low GPA in engineering.

5. Do you have any GPA trends? If your freshman GPA was 1 point lower than your senior GPA, schools are more likely to forgive a low overall GPA and assume that your senior GPA is more indicative of your abilities.

Gaawd...I hope this is true.

tl;dr version: If you're on the margins, it helps. I speak from personal experience here. I doubt I'd have been admitted to 2 of MVP (and waitlisted at 2 of CCN) if I hadn't gone to my undergrad (Swarthmore) given my numbers (in the profile, yo). That said, difficulty of major and undergrad prestige almost never matter in any other circumstance (exceptions exist, of course, but are rare and often require excellent recommendations to bring about). For the OP, find some good job to do between now and law school, kick the LSAT's ass, and ED to UVA.

Not trying to burst your bubble, but I have the feeling your other soft factors (which really are quite good) are far more likely to credit for your cycle.

[thexfactor]

law school admissions is like college football rankings. You are rewarded for playing an easy schedule and winning your games. IE shitty UG easy major but 4.0.

You might get a very small boost, a tie breaker of sorts, for going to a good school or a "hard major."

Some say it s unfair, but that s the game!

[EdgarWinter]

To be fair, Swarthmore is really hard. I have a good friend who does very well there but he definitely has to bust his ass.

But yeah, thanks for necro'ing this thread because it was a lot of fun to lol at prestige-whores who shelled out for shiny "T20" undergrad diplomas. Especially if they spent $150,000 for the unemployable-regardless-of-school English/Sociology/Underwater Basketweaving degrees that we know they went for. If you're going to lawl school then TTT 4.0 UG with $$$ FTW.

[Elston Gunn]

I think UG prestige is definitely a significant boost at Yale, fwiw. There was a time when the Facebook group was me, a couple of people from solid state schools, and like 25 people from ivies/top liberal arts.

ETA: which is to say, I think Curious1 has been completely accurate ITT.

[FlanAl]

geez i had no idea this thing was 5 pages long, I want no part of it.

[09042014]

Come back when you have a 3.0 from a real Ivy.

The 3.0 from a real ivy is better than a 3.92 from a shitty state university from the mountain region.

No it's not. You gotta be retarded or have fucked multiple professors wives to get a C in an Ivy.