3.65 (or 3.7)/179 - Chances for HYS? Forum

[lyla12]

Hi guys! First post here, so I apologize in advance if I'm doing something wrong.

I'm currently an undergrad (just finished my junior year) at HYS. I really screwed up my freshman year (with a sub 3.0 GPA), but pulled a 4.0 over my sophomore & junior years to bring my GPA back to where it is now: 3.65. Assuming that I continue pulling good grades over senior year (which should be doable), I could graduate with ~3.7ish GPA (maybe a little higher; I'm not sure exactly). So it would make a difference, but not a huge difference. Basically, I'm wondering whether my admissions chances would be drastically affected by whether I apply this cycle or wait one more year.

other factors:

I have NO interest in going into biglaw -- I want to eventually go into academia. I am a psych major and am interested in applying to PhD programs in Psychology/Neuroscience as well as applying to law schools. I am pretty confident about my chances at psych PhD programs... but law school admissions are a different story. I've heard that it is pointless to pursue legal academia unless one graduates from HYS law, so I'm really aiming primarily at those schools. However, I've been told that my GPA is too low, and even if I wait one more year to apply, a 3.7 GPA is not high enough to be competitive at HYS.

Basically, I'm wondering how my chances are for HYS NEXT year, with a (presumably) 3.7 GPA and 179 LSAT. If my chances are not high, I might as well apply to psych PhD programs this year and just forget about law school altogether - but if my chances are decent, I'd consider waiting one more year to apply to Psych PhD programs, and hope for JD and PhD acceptances.

Also - I was wondering how much value (if any) my extracurricular activities will hold. I have one very good EC (completely NOT related to law, though) -- I'm ranked 10th in the country in my division in a particular competitive activity (I'd rather not disclose the details, since I'm trying to aim for SOME anonymity). I don't know how much stuff like that helps, though.

Additionally, any information on JD/PhD in general would be very appreciated! Thank you!

EDIT: originally had this in the title but forgot to include it in the main post --- my LSAT score is a 179.

[lawls]

You might consider Chicago, as they aren't far removed from Harvard or Stanford for academia; the tiers are really Yale, then HSC, then others, for academia (though I think Michigan placed exceptionally well last cycle of hires...).

A 3.7/179 gives you an outside shot at Harvard, very unlikely at Yale/Stanford. HYS degree will help, but GPAs keep moving up so I suspect it won't cut it by the time you apply. My advice is that if you want academia, just do the PhD. Also, if you are a Harvard grad, they seem to do better for HLS admissions.

If you can pull up the GPA to a 3.75 or higher, you'll stand a much better shot.

[jtemp320]

I'd apply to all - seems like you can be very confident about Columbia, Chicago ect. and $$ at Michigan - the GPA is a bit of an issue for HYS but if your softs are good I wouldn't be surprised at all to see you get into Harvard. Congrats on the 179 - thats awesome

[094320]

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[jtemp320]

I second the UChicago suggestion.

Also, not sure which HYS you're attending, but one of my best friends is at H and she kindly typed up the admissions stats of their undergrads for me. If you go to H, then in past years (though maybe not with the new admissions dean), the GPA standard for H undergrads was decently lower for HLS--With a 177+LSAT, only a 3.5GPA was necessary. I think it's H-specific, though, so if you're at either Y or S for undergrad, you might not get quite the same leeway. Have you tried looking up the stats at your school? (I did for my undergrad, but they were annoyingly aggregated). If they provide what happened to individuals (like H does), then you might glean a bit there.

How do you look up school specific stats?

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[EijiMiyake]

Each one of HYS law has a home-field advantage for their UGs. In some cases, it's very significant - you should apply to all 3 of them and see what happens.

[lyla12]

I do go to Harvard undergrad, actually, so it's great to know that I may have a slightly better chance at HLS. Thanks!

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[lyla12]

I do go to Harvard undergrad, actually, so it's great to know that I may have a slightly better chance at HLS. Thanks!

Yeah, in that case just go to your office in the Fall. They have this binder there full of the stats of individual students with their LSAT & GPA and their results everywhere they applied. You should look it up for this past year, since the admissions dean changed for this past year, to see if anything changed. If it hasn't, then HLS looks golden.

Awesome - thanks again!

[KibblesAndVick]

I have very similar numbers. Based on LSN there seems to be about a 50/50 chance for applicants with those numbers in general. If you read this thread you should get a pretty good idea of how things stand.

Harvard takes care of its own so you should be in real good shape.

[jtemp320]

I second the UChicago suggestion.

Also, not sure which HYS you're attending, but one of my best friends is at H and she kindly typed up the admissions stats of their undergrads for me. If you go to H, then in past years (though maybe not with the new admissions dean), the GPA standard for H undergrads was decently lower for HLS--With a 177+LSAT, only a 3.5GPA was necessary. I think it's H-specific, though, so if you're at either Y or S for undergrad, you might not get quite the same leeway. Have you tried looking up the stats at your school? (I did for my undergrad, but they were annoyingly aggregated). If they provide what happened to individuals (like H does), then you might glean a bit there.

How do you look up school specific stats?

At your undergrad's prelaw admissions office, if they're competent enough to provide that sort of info.

Ah, I assume they are pretty competent it was a solid school but I've been out a couple years - well I'll give them a call and see if they can give me anything...

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[lawls]

I think you have a shot at Harvard, enough so to finish the year and apply, but I think people in this thread are being a little optimistic about your chances if your GPA is a 3.7 and not, say, 3.75.

3.7 has been the rough floor at Harvard this cycle. Every year, GPAs inflate from the last, and law school GPA medians go up. Add to that a GPA heavy new dean, and the fact that you aren't applying until 2011 (for 2012)...

With a Harvard undergrad, it is entirely possible you can be at the 2012 floor and still get in, but it is a chance, not anything close to a great shot. If you really want Harvard, you might consider "gaming" your GPA to get it higher (extra classes, etc. before you graduate). In any event, as I noted above, for academia, Harvard and Chicago actually aren't that far apart, and the Harvard undergrad will help an academic career.

Good luck!

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[lawls]

I think you have a shot at Harvard, enough so to finish the year and apply, but I think people in this thread are being a little optimistic about your chances if your GPA is a 3.7 and not, say, 3.75.

3.7 3.8 has been the rough floor at Harvard this cycle. Every year, GPAs inflate from the last, and law school GPA medians go up. Add to that a GPA heavy new dean, and the fact that you aren't applying until 2011 (for 2012)...

With a Harvard undergrad, it is entirely possible you can be at the 2012 floor and still get in, but it is a chance, not anything close to a great shot. If you really want Harvard, you might consider "gaming" your GPA to get it higher (extra classes, etc. before you graduate). In any event, as I noted above, for academia, Harvard and Chicago actually aren't that far apart, and the Harvard undergrad will help an academic career.

Good luck!

My optimism is actually based off of charts from the old admissions dean at the Harvard undergrad office showing that a 3.5 was sufficient for Harvard undergrads with 177+ GPAs, which, even under the old admissions dean, was still generously low. But yes, UChicago is your good back-up plan.

It is possible that TLS and LSN were misleading, but everything I've seen indicates this year saw a dramatic uptick in the GPA floor. But I haven't seen the Harvard undergrad app charts, and students with low GPAs probably won't advertise their scores to the same degree, so I agree OP should check with the pre-law office.

Also, there were plenty of acceptances for students in the 3.7 - 3.8 range, so 3.8 can't really be considered the floor.

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[Haribo]

Eh, things on LSN don't look that different from previous years. In general, a 3.65+/178+ is hit or miss at Harvard, and depends on softs. Going to Harvard for undergrad is a huge soft and will benefit you. Yale and Stanford are unlikely but not impossible with those numbers (I had similar numbers and was accepted into Harvard and Stanford, and didn't apply to Yale.) It's certainly worth the application fee.

At Harvard under Toby Stock, people accepted with ~3.7/180 also tended to have stellar resumes/softs/undergrads. It looks like this year that may not have been the case: in the LSN data, most of the applicants who were waitlisted at Harvard were also waitlisted or rejected at other schools within T14. To me, that indicates a problem with the application. Unfortunately applicants with these numbers are few and far between, so it's hard to see where the data is trending, but that's what it looks like to me. A 3.4/179 was accepted to HLS this year, so there certainly isn't a hard cut-off.