does undergrad matter at all?

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npodlask11
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does undergrad matter at all?

Postby npodlask11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:29 pm

i have heard numerous things from your undergrad institution matters significantly to only your gpa is significant. can anyone shed some light on this? i go to a top 20 ug school and have a 3.679 gpa. is this more "valuable" than a 3.679 at a state school not ranked t25 per say? the reason i ask is, i am not the greatest standardized test taker but i think my gpa indicates that i am not completely bereft of intelligence required to get into a t-20 law program so im just wondering if my ug will give me an edge.

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englawyer
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby englawyer » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:31 pm

npodlask11 wrote:i have heard numerous things from your undergrad institution matters significantly to only your gpa is significant. can anyone shed some light on this? i go to a top 20 ug school and have a 3.679 gpa. is this more "valuable" than a 3.679 at a state school not ranked t25 per say? the reason i ask is, i am not the greatest standardized test taker but i think my gpa indicates that i am not completely bereft of intelligence required to get into a t-20 law program so im just wondering if my ug will give me an edge.


it matters on the margins, but mostly it comes down to GPA/LSAT. IE you will be more competitive with a 3.7/167 than a state school applicant with a 3.7/167 but you will lose out to a state school 3.7/168.

lawschoolftw
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby lawschoolftw » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:33 pm

It may make a small difference if your tied with the same exact numbers as someone else but in the end it really doesn't matter. For example if you have a 3.6/160 and someone who attended some random state school in the middle of upstate ny has a 3.6/164 they'll get it every time. Short answer really, no it doesn't make much of a difference.

npodlask11
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby npodlask11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:45 pm

i understand. i still find it curious considering the difference in academic rigor between say notre dame and usc, or yale and purdue or something like that.

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im_blue
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:51 pm

Since you attended a T20 and not HYPS, then undergrad won't matter at all for you.

npodlask11
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby npodlask11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:53 pm

im_blue wrote:Since you attended a T20 and not HYPS, then undergrad won't matter at all for you.

those kids are just old money and junkies who pay for their gpa.

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scribelaw
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby scribelaw » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:54 pm

npodlask11 wrote:i understand. i still find it curious considering the difference in academic rigor between say notre dame and usc, or yale and purdue or something like that.


This is a really annoying comment. Some of the top-rated UGs are the most notorious for grade inflation. And Purdue and USC are both perfectly good undergrads.

npodlask11
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby npodlask11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:56 pm

scribelaw wrote:
npodlask11 wrote:i understand. i still find it curious considering the difference in academic rigor between say notre dame and usc, or yale and purdue or something like that.


This is a really annoying comment. Some of the top-rated UGs are the most notorious for grade inflation. And Purdue and USC are both perfectly good undergrads.

i agree i transferred from purdue to notre dame. unfortunatly i find your comment really annoying as every professor at notre dame has a personal vendetta with grade inflation so its so fucking difficult to get an A for the majority of the classes. and we dont have a+'s so lsac gpa=fucked over.

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im_blue
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:59 pm

npodlask11 wrote:
im_blue wrote:Since you attended a T20 and not HYPS, then undergrad won't matter at all for you.

those kids are just old money and junkies who pay for their gpa.


LOL this coming from a Notre Dame student? Any top 25ish private will be filled with those kids. :roll:

npodlask11
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby npodlask11 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:04 pm

im_blue wrote:
npodlask11 wrote:
im_blue wrote:Since you attended a T20 and not HYPS, then undergrad won't matter at all for you.

those kids are just old money and junkies who pay for their gpa.


LOL this coming from a Notre Dame student? Any top 25ish private will be filled with those kids. :roll:

yeah but i transferred in from a state school. and despite my dream world, i am not old money by any measure. i actually worked my ass off to try to get here, i couldnt buy my way in. so judgmental blue

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im_blue
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby im_blue » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:06 pm

npodlask11 wrote:
im_blue wrote:
npodlask11 wrote:
im_blue wrote:Since you attended a T20 and not HYPS, then undergrad won't matter at all for you.

those kids are just old money and junkies who pay for their gpa.


LOL this coming from a Notre Dame student? Any top 25ish private will be filled with those kids. :roll:

yeah but i transferred in from a state school. and despite my dream world, i am not old money by any measure. i actually worked my ass off to try to get here, i couldnt buy my way in. so judgmental blue


Not saying you're one of those kids, but just that any private university will be filled with rich students, including your own.

rundoxierun
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:04 pm

Lol, there is someone in here dissing Purdue?? This is downright ridiculous, I grew up in Indiana and Purdue is great. All these kids who think their private school is so great because they had to show up to the profs office hours every week to get that full participation grade really need to stop.

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$1.99
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby $1.99 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:07 pm

i am willing to bet that the amount of academics students learn whether they attended harvard or a random state school is fairly similar during the undergrad years.

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ConMan345
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby ConMan345 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:11 pm

scribelaw wrote:
npodlask11 wrote:i understand. i still find it curious considering the difference in academic rigor between say notre dame and usc, or yale and purdue or something like that.


This is a really annoying comment. Some of the top-rated UGs are the most notorious for grade inflation. And Purdue and USC are both perfectly good undergrads.


Grade inflation =/= lack of rigor. I'd put my money on the X percentile from HYPS over the X percentile from most every other school.

Also, remember that grade inflation is mitigated (to some degree) by the fact that LSAC puts your GPA into a percentile rank for your school.

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jack duluoz
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby jack duluoz » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:14 pm

UG doesnt matter assuming u didnt have a serious run in with the law.

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PhillyFan09
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby PhillyFan09 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:24 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Lol, there is someone in here dissing Purdue?? This is downright ridiculous, I grew up in Indiana and Purdue is great. All these kids who think their private school is so great because they had to show up to the profs office hours every week to get that full participation grade really need to stop.


+1

There is little or no difference in academic rigor between USC and Notre Dame.

keemos
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby keemos » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:26 pm

PhillyFan09 wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Lol, there is someone in here dissing Purdue?? This is downright ridiculous, I grew up in Indiana and Purdue is great. All these kids who think their private school is so great because they had to show up to the profs office hours every week to get that full participation grade really need to stop.


+1

There is little or no difference in academic rigor between USC and Notre Dame.



How do you know?

MJS83
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby MJS83 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:55 pm

GPA/LSAT index settles it every time.

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nyyankees
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby nyyankees » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:02 am

I went to a better ranked school than ND that was far more brutal in terms of grade inflation than ND (my sister went there and im pretty familiar with academics there) and Im not expecting any sort of bump due to my UG. Thats just the way the cookie crumbles in the game of law school admissions. Congrats on your degree, youre just like everyone else

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DoubleChecks
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby DoubleChecks » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:05 am

aw guys this type of thread never goes anywhere

someone's feelings always end up hurt :(

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big_blue79
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby big_blue79 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:22 am

$1.99 wrote:i am willing to bet that the amount of academics students learn whether they attended harvard or a random state school is fairly similar during the undergrad years.


Truth. I went to 6 schools total in UG, from a top 10 engineering to a 120 total student population Bible college that lost their accreditation after I left. The variance from prof to prof was much more significant than the variance from school to school.

Heck, I had a prof at UNLV (stripper U!) that taught grad students at Johns Hopkins the year before (her department was cut - Japanese studies ftl). She failed 18/20 students the first test, and her chance at making up the grade (to a C) was very demanding. Luckily I was in the 2/20 subset.

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parker09
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby parker09 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:03 am

npodlask11 wrote:i have heard numerous things from your undergrad institution matters significantly to only your gpa is significant. can anyone shed some light on this? i go to a top 20 ug school and have a 3.679 gpa. is this more "valuable" than a 3.679 at a state school not ranked t25 per say? the reason i ask is, i am not the greatest standardized test taker but i think my gpa indicates that i am not completely bereft of intelligence required to get into a t-20 law program so im just wondering if my ug will give me an edge.


The reason you've heard numerous things is that no one knows, and everyone has anecdotes that run the range from "no, only numbers matter" to "no, I went to a tiny/unknown undergrad and got into Harvard" to "no, I went to a top Ivy and didn't get into Harvard" to "yes, I went to a tiny/unknown undergrad and didn't get into Harvard" to "yes, I went to a top Ivy and got into Harvard" and everything in between.

Then someone brings up grade inflation at top schools, rebutted by someone else saying that these school should give out more A's because they have top students, rebutted by someone else-else saying their crap school has brilliant kids/professors who would beat out students/profs at top schools, sometimes supported by someone else-else-else saying that their Ivy classes have a bunch of idiots, and then sometimes people throw out hypotheticals comparing Hypothetical Student A from Elite School A with Hypothetical Student B from Crap School B, and then someone who goes to or knows someone who goes to Crap School B gets offended, and that starts the whole "Elite school = grade inflation" cycle all over again, sometimes supplemented with more anecdotes like "Well my/my cousin's/my long-lost twin's/my dog's/etc. professor at Crap School B or Similar Other Crap School was awesome and then I/he/she/it transferred up and learned nothing at Elite School A or Similar Other Elite School and was surrounded by idiots," etc.

I think the general consensus in the end is:
- A "good" undergrad can sometimes help, but we're talking like HYPS or similar caliber. And even then, negligible boost, if any. And only at certain law schools (for example, Chicago, Columbia, and Penn are "known" for liking "elite" undergrads).
- A "crap" undergrad will rarely hurt you.
- Absolute numbers still rule.

Edit: And then the thread derails from "DOES it matter" ("Will my school help/hurt me?) to "SHOULD it matter" ("Do Ivy kids deserve the boost?")... which is a whole other can of worms.
Last edited by parker09 on Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

imchuckbass58
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby imchuckbass58 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 am

parker09 wrote:The reason you've heard numerous things is that no one knows, and everyone has anecdotes that run the range from "no, only numbers matter" to "no, I went to a tiny/unknown undergrad and got into Harvard" to "no, I went to a top Ivy and didn't get into Harvard" to "yes, I went to a tiny/unknown undergrad and didn't get into Harvard" to "yes, I went to a top Ivy and got into Harvard" and everything in between.

I think the general consensus in the end is:
- A "good" undergrad can sometimes help, but we're talking like HYPS or similar caliber. And even then, negligible boost, if any. And only at certain law schools (for example, Chicago, Columbia, and Penn are "known" for liking "elite" undergrads).
- A "crap" undergrad will rarely hurt you.
- Absolute numbers still rule.


Well to put some numbers around it, here are some actual stats.

http://www.yale.edu/career/students/gra ... wstats.pdf

If you look at the mean GPA of matriculants, it's near the 25th percentile at most of the top schools, and about .1-.2 off the medians. This would imply that HYPS students are getting a .1-.2 boost on average. LSAT averages for matriculants are also 1-2 points off the median.

We can argue until our heads turn blue about whether this is justified or not, but that's a rough estimation of the effect.

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parker09
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby parker09 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 am

imchuckbass58 wrote:Well to put some numbers around it, here are some actual stats.

http://www.yale.edu/career/students/gra ... wstats.pdf

If you look at the mean GPA of matriculants, it's near the 25th percentile at most of the top schools, and about .1-.2 off the medians. This would imply that HYPS students are getting a .1-.2 boost on average. LSAT averages for matriculants are also 1-2 points off the median.

We can argue until our heads turn blue about whether this is justified or not, but that's a rough estimation of the effect.


That's a rough estimation of the effect for Yale undergrads, and a similar effect probably holds for Harvard and Princeton, though those numbers aren't posted online. I think most people would agree that going to HYP gives you a minor boost, but the question is how far down the effect goes for other "elite" but non-HYP schools (like Stanford, MIT, etc). OP went to a "top 20" and I'd venture to say that the boost doesn't go all the way down to #20.

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Cupidity
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Re: does undergrad matter at all?

Postby Cupidity » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:43 am

if anything a HYP GPA might need to be counted down, because they do so much inflation. At Harvard, 50% percentile is like a 3.6, at my undergrad its a 2.9




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