JD/MBA 2010 applicants

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englawyer
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JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:50 am

ok we are the complete sickos. applying to top JD AND top MBA (or the designated combo programs).

who's out there? why are you doing something so crazy?

imchuckbass58
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:10 am

I'm a Columbia 1L who applied to the MBA program this year (and was recently accepted). I guess I don't really fit this thread, and I'm not really sure how much perspective I have given that I won't start the MBA portion until next year, but I did a fair amount of research into JD/MBA programs in general and at several schools in particular, so maybe I'll be able to add something to this thread.

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:13 am

Oh and to answer the why question, I applied because the two career areas I am most interested in at this point (bankruptcy/restructuring and urban economic development/real estate - very random and different, I know) are very interdisciplinary and involve both law and business knowledge.

I think the plan with both is to work for several years as a lawyer before transitioning to more of a business role, albeit one which is still heavily influenced by and involved in legal issues.

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:25 am

i am applying to both types of schools right now, although my priority is getting an MBA from the best school i can get into (ie i would turn down HLS for a MBA at a lesser school).

i am not 100% committed to jd/mba yet, just vaguely interested in a JD to supplement an MBA. I am intrigued by the jd/mba list on wikipedia:

--LinkRemoved--.

i am primarily interested in a business career, but think a legal perspective and background could be useful when discussing deals, negotiating terms, etc.

i have an interview invite from one top MBA program so far (applied to a mixture of R1 and R2), and am waiting for my transcripts/lor to get to LSAC to submit my law school apps.

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 1:27 am

imchuck, one question brought up is applying to MBA as a 1L. did you feel you got a pass on quality work experience to get in? or was your work experience pretty solid for an independent mba program?

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:41 am

I don't feel like they give passes on work experience for JD/MBAs, but it's probably looked at less intensely.

I personally had pretty solid work experience, though not as much as the typical applicant. Before law school I did two years of management consulting (not Bain/BCG/McK but the next tier down - think Booz/Monitor/Oliver Wyman, etc). That put me solidly in the bottom 10% of the entering class in terms of years of work experience (median is 4.5, middle 80% is something like 3-6). I do know they take some JD/MBAs straight out of undergrad, though it is very rare.

I think it is highly dependent on the school, and what your stated goals are in your application.

In terms of goals, I talked to the Wharton adcoms, and they basically said if you say you want an MBA to enhance your law practice, they would be more inclined to look or your relatively brief work experience more charitably because they understand that it's unreasonable to ask people to work for 4 or 5 years before law school since everyone starts out as a first year associate at a law firm. If, on the other hand, you said you wanted to go into business right after school, I think they'd place more emphasis on solid work experience.

In terms of schools, some schools just generally look more favorably on younger applicants (Harvard is one), while others place a premium on experience (Wharton, for instance). Some people also say that the "relative quality" of the two schools is a factor. For instance at a school where the law school is much better than the business school (Yale, to a lesser degree NYU), the fact that you're at the law school gives you huge amounts of credibility. By contrast Wharton is supposedly fed up with people trying to "backdoor" into the business school through the law school and applies a higher bar. I think this effect probably exists, but it's probably overstated.

The key, most important thing to remember is b-schools are all about stories. If you can tell a convincing story that articulates 1) why you want a JD/MBA, 2) why you need a JD/MBA to accomplish your career goals instead of just one degree or the other, and 3) why you need the degree now instead of after accumulating experience, then you'll be well on your way. You need to give the impression you have concrete, specific career goals, and doing the MBA is the best way to achieve it.

Sorry this is a ridiculously long post. Hope that answers your question.

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby HITeacher2 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:23 am

Yes, there actually are undergrads who successfully apply to the JD and MBA programs their senior year of college and get into both programs without any work experience. I'm one of those undergrads - I was a class of 2008 undergrad who applied and got into the JD/MBA at HLS/HBS my senior year. I ended up deferring both schools to pursue two years of work experience (Teach for America, I don't regret it for a minute and will be matriculating to HBS first next year), but neither school could have known that when I was applying ... I'm still trying to wrap my head around why either school let me in (my LSAT was low for HLS, my work experience should have precluded me from HBS) but I have a pretty deep understanding of the admissions process given my research and experiences. If anybody wants to chat, I'm open to taking PMs or chatting about my views on the admissions experience in this thread.

On a paranoid note, if anybody from HLS or HBS adcomm sees this, my case is unique enough that my real identity should be instantly compromised. In which case, hello adcomm, see you next year!

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joshikousei
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby joshikousei » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:13 am

englawyer wrote:i am applying to both types of schools right now, although my priority is getting an MBA from the best school i can get into (ie i would turn down HLS for a MBA at a lesser school).


i would not turn down HLS unless the business school was HBS, GSB, or Wharton.

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CardinalRules
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby CardinalRules » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:39 am

Every time that I see this thread, I feel like an underachiever. Good luck, people! :)

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby HITeacher2 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:47 am

managamy wrote:Every time that I see this thread, I feel like an underachiever. Good luck, people! :)


If your LSN numbers & softs are accurate, you're the last person who should feel like an underachiever. By the end of this cycle, you're gonna have your choice of Yale, Harvard, Stanford, or a full ride at Columbia or Michigan. Getting into the b-schools is actually a bit easier, in my opinion...

joshikousei wrote:i would not turn down HLS unless the business school was HBS, GSB, or Wharton.


If he got HBS and HLS, he'd be set for a JD/MBA. Actually, if he got Wharton and HLS, a quick e-mail to UPenn Law AdComm would result in an instant admission, so he could JD/MBA at Penn as well. These things normally work themselves out...

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:56 am

i would not turn down HLS unless the business school was HBS, GSB, or Wharton.


that is a very interesting viewpoint!


so if someone wants to do business, and they get into MIT Sloan or Columbia MBA, you would think HLS still has the better business opportunities?

i am not disagreeing, but certainly goes against the grain and the whole "only go to law school if you want to do law" thing. maybe HLS is a special case.

If your LSN numbers & softs are accurate, you're the last person who should feel like an underachiever. By the end of this cycle, you're gonna have your choice of Yale, Harvard, Stanford, or a full ride at Columbia or Michigan. Getting into the b-schools is actually a bit easier, in my opinion...


that seems kinda crazy to me. it seems law schools really do just look at GPA/LSAT, where I have seen profiles of people with crazy gmat and gpa get rejected from all the top places.

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby Unadilla Kayaker » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:01 am

I'm a 0L planning to apply to the MBA program at whatever school I attend for law school. My rationale is that I want to be a COO or Chief of Staff in a company or government organization, respectively. I like learning about many different things and being able to approach subjects from multiple viewpoints. I've done graduate work and lived abroad and certainly see the usefulness in law school. As for business school, by the time I graduated from college I wish I had supplemented the 10 or so business courses I took with more of them. I think a firm understanding of the principles of business and management are useful, so long as you are not a yes man and wedded to them. Sometimes they are useful to what you are doing, sometimes they are not. You need to be able to figure out when they are appropriate to use.

So, because of my desire to "run" something (run not meaning command and control but rather like I said, keep the trains running--like a project manager) I think both degrees will be useful down the road in my career. The current plan is to practice law for a few years after graduation and then try to transition into consulting to get my feet wet before finding a managerial job in a company.

Now I wait for the attacks on my plan.

PoliticalJunkie
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby PoliticalJunkie » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:14 am

Northwestern JD/MBA app here hoping for the best.

The duo is simply the best bang for your buck.

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joshikousei
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby joshikousei » Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:41 pm

englawyer wrote:so if someone wants to do business, and they get into MIT Sloan or Columbia MBA, you would think HLS still has the better business opportunities?

i am not disagreeing, but certainly goes against the grain and the whole "only go to law school if you want to do law" thing. maybe HLS is a special case.


oh yeah, i forgot about MIT sloan - i've loved all the kids i met from there.

maybe i go against the grain because i have some post-graduate business WE and don't view law school as fully precluding other options, e.g., entrepreneurship, consulting, start-up, VC, social enterprise, etc. i know law school is going to suck and i may very well hate it, but i hope it won't be a total waste of my time and money.. that it'll actually give me something that networking, drinking, and case studies won't.

but i'm naive, and i'm also trying to convince myself that i'm not making a bad decision - spending 3 miserable years at a law school instead of 2 less miserable years at a business school, with potentially the same kind of job prospects that i'm interested in. so take what i say with a grain of salt.

HLS probably has better opportunities than a second tier business school, but i'm not sure it's better than Columbia MBA or Sloan.

If your LSN numbers & softs are accurate, you're the last person who should feel like an underachiever. By the end of this cycle, you're gonna have your choice of Yale, Harvard, Stanford, or a full ride at Columbia or Michigan. Getting into the b-schools is actually a bit easier, in my opinion...


that seems kinda crazy to me. it seems law schools really do just look at GPA/LSAT, where I have seen profiles of people with crazy gmat and gpa get rejected from all the top places.


business school acceptances are more holistic in nature, i feel. you've got to be a little more rounded than having spectacular numbers. i know some brilliant people who didn't get into their top choices, while i also know a lot of not-brilliant-at-all people that got into HSB, GSB, etc.

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:47 pm

i know law school is going to suck and i may very well hate it, but i hope it won't be a total waste of my time and money.. that it'll actually give me something that networking, drinking, and case studies won't.


i can totally see this viewpoint. I think you will definitely grow academically and analytically through law school more than business school. let's face it...law school grads are usually perceived as extremely intelligent, whereas b-school grads are not.

one of the nice things about a JD/MBA is that you will always be viewed as both intelligent and business-savvy, a killer combo.


HLS probably has better opportunities than a second tier business school, but i'm not sure it's better than Columbia MBA or Sloan.


the question then becomes "how low will you go" :P. i think this really depends on your goal within business. I think for M&A investment banking or elite strategy consulting, a HLS JD will compete with top 10 MBA programs. but if you want to do something like Sales and Trading or Hedge Funds, a HLS JD will have a hard time competing with those schools. keep in mind i have no direct experience in any of these areas; most of this is based on hearsay and internet research :).

for entrepreneurship , i think MBA has the upper hand because VC firms often scout at the top schools looking to fund budding entrepreneurs with the next big idea. there are also business plan competitions and you are more likely to find promising partners at business school than law school...that networking advantage counts for something.

you also have to consider what happens if you don't make the cut (dont score that consulting or banking internship/job). at law school, you are looking at biglaw (hopefully), whereas in b-school you are looking at general mgmt, corporate finance, or marketing.

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby HITeacher2 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:59 pm

englawyer wrote: the question then becomes "how low will you go" :P. i think this really depends on your goal within business. I think for M&A investment banking or elite strategy consulting, a HLS JD will compete with top 10 MBA programs. but if you want to do something like Sales and Trading or Hedge Funds, a HLS JD will have a hard time competing with those schools. keep in mind i have no direct experience in any of these areas; most of this is based on hearsay and internet research :).

for entrepreneurship , i think MBA has the upper hand because VC firms often scout at the top schools looking to fund budding entrepreneurs with the next big idea. there are also business plan competitions and you are more likely to find promising partners at business school than law school...that networking advantage counts for something.

you also have to consider what happens if you don't make the cut (dont score that consulting or banking internship/job). at law school, you are looking at biglaw (hopefully), whereas in b-school you are looking at general mgmt, corporate finance, or marketing.


I'd give the HLS JD a little more credit... there aren't a lot of people who actually try to go into consulting or i-banking from HLS, but of the ones that do a large percentage of them make it. TS (of TS1 and TS2 fame) went to McKinsey (#1 in consulting) out of HLS after all, McK isn't an easy offer to get even out of HBS or Wharton, much less Haas or Ross schools...

With respect to case comping, a good case-comp team at the b-school knows to bring diversity into their team and will often seek at least one member outside the b-school to help. Typically it's wisest to seek out an engineer for VC case comps, but if you're in law school and make an effort to network with b-school students (by cross-registering for a few classes for example) you should be able to get a foot in the door without enrolling at the b-school.

Your last point is right on the money, literally =)

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby MeTalkPrettyOneDay » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:03 pm

imchuckbass58 wrote:I'm a Columbia 1L who applied to the MBA program this year (and was recently accepted).
Congratulations!

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby imchuckbass58 » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:11 pm

HITeacher2 wrote:
I'd give the HLS JD a little more credit... there aren't a lot of people who actually try to go into consulting or i-banking from HLS, but of the ones that do a large percentage of them make it. TS (of TS1 and TS2 fame) went to McKinsey (#1 in consulting) out of HLS after all, McK isn't an easy offer to get even out of HBS or Wharton, much less Haas or Ross schools...


I'd agree and disagree. The HLS degree (assuming you have decent grades) is proof that you're very smart. Having done recruiting at a consulting firm though, there will be two doubts that will instantly jump to mind when looking at a JD - 1) does this person have the quantitative ability necessary to do the job, and 2) is this person presentable/socially adept enough to put in front of a client. The outside world views law students as 1) being horrible at math, and 2) being enormously socially awkward, and I have to say I don't totally disagree.

I think an HLS degree with decent grades will get you the interview pretty much anywhere, but after that, all bets are off. You have to really impress in the case interview to get the job, regardless of where you come from.

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joshikousei
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby joshikousei » Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:18 pm

i like englawyer and HITeacher. they make me feel better about my decisions. :P

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:29 pm

hows the cycle going for the jd/mba crowd so far?

i am just about done my apps. one more law school and one more b-school. so much work, so much work. hopefully its worth it in the end..

imchuckbass58
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby imchuckbass58 » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:38 pm

Do you mind my asking where you're applying, englawyer (pm if you want)?

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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby jerjon2 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:00 pm

Does anyone have any experience or anecdotal information about how difficult it is to get into University of Chicago's Business School if one is already a law student there? (I've been accepted there ED for fall 2010) I ask because I have very limited work experience but I would like to get into patent brokerage at some point after being involved in IP law. Because I intend to start my career in IP Biglaw, I can't imagine when I would have the chance to stop and go back to school for an MBA or if I would have time to try and do it part time.

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Ragged
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby Ragged » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:01 pm

I think I'm gonna apply to MBA after my first year of LS or however that works.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby ATOIsp07 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:02 pm

not sure if this has already been asked but...

can you apply to a school as a JD candidate and then, once admitted, switch to the JD/MBA program? or does it vary from school to school?

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englawyer
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Re: JD/MBA 2010 applicants

Postby englawyer » Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:15 pm

usually, you can apply to JD/MBA after 1 year (which is pretty much just the MBA application). i believe thats what imchuckbass did above at Columbia. This is rumored to slightly increase your odds at the MBA cycle, but usually still requires a couple years of work experience.

Schools like Penn, which have MBA > JD, are less amicable toward this process, for obvious reasons.

Schools with JD > MBA, like Yale, its often pretty easy to get into the MBA. In fact at Yale, you don't even need LOR/etc.




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