thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

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LawandOrder
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby LawandOrder » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:40 pm

Cleareyes wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
We have vastly, vastly, different ideas of what constitutues "not bad at all!"


Right. But nobody is suggesting that you go to a TTT. We're talking about OP, whose idea about a decent life might be very different from yours. This doesn't matter, as long as he has realistic expectations.


You're talking about the OP. I wasn't.


Great. Well thanks for answering his post then! It's always nice when you stop into another person's post to tell them that they're proposed lifestyle is beneath you and they should just stop trying. Instead of tips for waiters do you leave little notes saying "You are languishing in poverty?"


Oh, also. If you had read the first two posts of this thread (which you obviously didn't), you would see that I did address the OPs question in a very reasonable manner.

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zettsscores40
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby zettsscores40 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:42 pm

LawandOrder wrote:
zettsscores40 wrote:LawandOrder,

Please get something done about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micropenis

It's treatable and I think it'll make you a much more enjoyable poster.

Cheers,

Zetts


Oh I see. You're saying that I have a small penis. And therefore I am wrong. Gotcha.


No, I'm saying your level douchebagness and prickness is probably because you have micropenis. Never said anything about you being right or wrong. Just being a prick. Good RC there. I'm sure it'll help you out in the future.

pdx1
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby pdx1 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:44 pm

LawandOrder wrote:
pdx1 wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.


+1 on you being an idiot.


Have fun at whatever school you're attending! :wink: I sure hope I'll be able to make the "big bucks" like you someday!


Of course I can only assume, but I truly feel sorry for you that you will spend your entire life measuring yourself by the money you make.

PublicLaw
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby PublicLaw » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:47 pm

The Evil Genius wrote:
Mase85 wrote:
MissMaroon wrote:Don't listen to these people. Like every other decision in life, choosing a law school is a personal one. If you have family and an affordable lifestyle enticing you to go to the Tier 4 school and if those are your priorities, then go there. Honestly, a JD is a JD, and if you truly want to be a lawyer, you just need that degree. I think that outside T-30 or so, you need to have a compelling interest in practicing in that region because otherwise, you probably won't be making big money. But then again, who says money and a soul-sucking corporate job is all everyone is looking for. Basically, if you know what you want to do and know that you can achieve it at the Tier 4 school, don't let any elitists here convince you its not good enough.

Good luck :D


Thank u for your positive perspective and using this topic to reply about the ?s I asked. Thanx!! :)


The problem is the ABA shouldn't be allowing all these bs law schools to be opened. Years ago doctors/lawyers were similar in respect, stature and salary. Now with all these bs law schools, any individuals believes he can be an attorney. No. You don't see people trying to pull the same shit with med school, because the AMA protected the integrity of their schools. Not everyone is meant to be a lawyer. If you're scoring below the average LSAT score, you shouldn't be in law school. You don't hear someone bombing an MCAT and deciding to go to med school anyway (because no school will accept them). TTTs like Cooley and so forth need to go. Legal education needs a very big reworking.


x2

My brother did relatively well on the MCAT but because he wasn't in the top 10% or so, nixed going to med school because he could have only gotten into one good enough to be a "practitioner of natural medicine" or some bs. Instead he works in pharm. sales. He wanted to be a doctor but knew it wasn't everything and he does very well for himself in the job he's in. It's a good point that the profession is overrun with subpar lawyers and reworking the education system could help fix that.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby SoxyPirate » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:48 pm

pdx1 wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:
pdx1 wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:Schools below the T14 aren't worth it to attend generally, even with a full scholarship, unless you plan to live and practice in that area forever, or have other circumstances. Rankings matter little once you've dropped so low, and region becomes important.


+1 on you being an idiot.


Have fun at whatever school you're attending! :wink: I sure hope I'll be able to make the "big bucks" like you someday!


Of course I can only assume, but I truly feel sorry for you that you will spend your entire life measuring yourself by the money you make.


real friends have I none
mistakenly I've assumed
money = worth

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ZakD
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby ZakD » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:49 pm

spidaman1713 wrote:Where have all you great people been for the last 6 months? Anytime I read anyone asking a question other than about a T14 school people like lawandorder make them and me feel like a complete idiot. Finally someone says it's ok to go to a Tier 2 school without criticism! +10000 to all of you
Best comments I have read since joining TLS



+1

Why are we listening to someone with such a high regard for Dick Wolf anyway?

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Cleareyes
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Cleareyes » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:50 pm

LawandOrder wrote:Oh, also. If you had read the first two posts of this thread (which you obviously didn't), you would see that I did address the OPs question in a very reasonable manner.


Your first post was somewhat reasonable, if a bit extreme. Then you went on to suggest, in response to someone else saying that TTTers could have some mobility after gaining professional experience, to talk about how Cravath isn't hiring laterals from small law. This manifestly and clearly ignores small law to small law transfers, or government work (Cravath might not hire an experienced small law person but I don't know if the Brooklyn D.A.'s office would be averse to hiring an experienced small city prosecutor)

I don't want to get locked into a war of words here because it's not productive, but I think you should make more of an effort to view things from a questioner's perspective before answering the question.

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rayiner
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby rayiner » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:51 pm

pdx1 wrote:Of course I can only assume, but I truly feel sorry for you that you will spend your entire life measuring yourself by the money you make.


Even if you measure yourself by the money you make, it's kind of silly to throw it around in a forum where there are a bunch of 175+ LSAT investment bankers who are already in at HYSCCN...

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waldodanto
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby waldodanto » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:54 pm

uvatwol wrote:
If (when) you do reapply, do a little more thinking about the range of schools--the net you cast was widener than it needed to be, by about 170 rank spots.



I think this piece of genius got lost in the shuffle here. hilarious

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dresden doll
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby dresden doll » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:55 pm

I think rayiner made the most solid posts in this entire thread. It's all about expectations. Speaking from the perspective of an English/Political Science major from a small LAC, I can sincerely say I'm damn confident going to law school (likely Michigan in my case) will represent a huge step upwards for me, even if I do have to take on sizable debt to snag that JD. And, yes, I would feel the same way even if I wasn't headed to a T14.

To the OP: ride out your WLs and see what becomes of those T1 apps. There's not much point in deciding on anything right now; when you get your decisions back, resurrect this thread, make a poll and I'm sure many of us will endeavor to give you a solid advice re: your options.

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belbrien
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby belbrien » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:41 pm

i think it's a gross generalization to say only attend T1-x law schools if you want to be successful. Look at Joe Biden Jay Schadler -ABC News correspondent and award-winning journalist , William J. Brodsky - CEO and Chairman of the Chicago Board Options Exchange (syracuse law) tim russert (cleveland marshall college of law) Hon. Eugene Pigott associate judge of nys court of appeals (UB law) Adam Firestone '93 (J.D.), CEO, Firestone Vineyard, Frank X. Altimari (brooklyn law school) judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, Barry Salzberg (Brooklyn law school) Chief Executive Officer, Deloitte & Touche USA LLP Jeffrey B. Gewirtz (Brooklyn law school) Senior Vice President and General Counsel, New Jersey Nets, Dorothy Samuels, New York Times editorialist, Peter Franchot, Comptroller of Maryland (Northeastern Law)

I'm not saying this to put down top law schools or those who think highly of them; I respect them-they open a lot of doors and make becoming successful that much easier; but regardless of where you go I think that what you put into your education is what will determine your success. Not everyone has the 180/4.0 gpa but that doesn't mean they can't excel in the legal field. Law is a business and those who are business savvy shouldn't be ruled out just because they didn't score in the 99 percentile on a standardized test. Just a thought. Good luck to all.

pdx1
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby pdx1 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:54 pm

belbrien wrote:i think it's a gross generalization to say only attend T1-x law schools if you want to be successful. Look at Joe Biden Jay Schadler -ABC News correspondent and award-winning journalist , William J. Brodsky - CEO and Chairman of the Chicago Board Options Exchange (syracuse law) tim russert (cleveland marshall college of law) Hon. Eugene Pigott associate judge of nys court of appeals (UB law) Adam Firestone '93 (J.D.), CEO, Firestone Vineyard, Frank X. Altimari (brooklyn law school) judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, Barry Salzberg (Brooklyn law school) Chief Executive Officer, Deloitte & Touche USA LLP Jeffrey B. Gewirtz (Brooklyn law school) Senior Vice President and General Counsel, New Jersey Nets, Dorothy Samuels, New York Times editorialist, Peter Franchot, Comptroller of Maryland (Northeastern Law)

I'm not saying this to put down top law schools or those who think highly of them; I respect them-they open a lot of doors and make becoming successful that much easier; but regardless of where you go I think that what you put into your education is what will determine your success. Not everyone has the 180/4.0 gpa but that doesn't mean they can't excel in the legal field. Law is a business and those who are business savvy shouldn't be ruled out just because they didn't score in the 99 percentile on a standardized test. Just a thought. Good luck to all.


I don't know about anyone else, but I am soooooooo sick of people generalizing specific examples of individuals succeeding from low ranked schools to justify their school decisions. Possible is not equal to probable. That, my friend is the generalization. We're merely talking probabilities and likelihoods, which increase with school rank.

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ZakD
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby ZakD » Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:57 pm

waldodanto wrote:
uvatwol wrote:
If (when) you do reapply, do a little more thinking about the range of schools--the net you cast was widener than it needed to be, by about 170 rank spots.



I think this piece of genius got lost in the shuffle here. hilarious



+1, I thought that was pretty funny, but then got caught up in Dick Wolf's BS.

awr2056
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby awr2056 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:23 pm

LawandOrder wrote:
Cleareyes wrote:Great. Well thanks for answering his post then! It's always nice when you stop into another person's post to tell them that they're proposed lifestyle is beneath you and they should just stop trying. Instead of tips for waiters do you leave little notes saying "You are languishing in poverty?"


Haha no, but I think I may start! Actually I used to be a waiter for a while in undergrad so I tip pretty well. But that would be funny. :lol:


Your right that would be hilarious........... douchebag.

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The Evil Genius
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby The Evil Genius » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:29 pm

belbrien wrote:i think it's a gross generalization to say only attend T1-x law schools if you want to be successful. Look at Joe Biden Jay Schadler -ABC News correspondent and award-winning journalist , William J. Brodsky - CEO and Chairman of the Chicago Board Options Exchange (syracuse law) tim russert (cleveland marshall college of law) Hon. Eugene Pigott associate judge of nys court of appeals (UB law) Adam Firestone '93 (J.D.), CEO, Firestone Vineyard, Frank X. Altimari (brooklyn law school) judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, Barry Salzberg (Brooklyn law school) Chief Executive Officer, Deloitte & Touche USA LLP Jeffrey B. Gewirtz (Brooklyn law school) Senior Vice President and General Counsel, New Jersey Nets, Dorothy Samuels, New York Times editorialist, Peter Franchot, Comptroller of Maryland (Northeastern Law)

I'm not saying this to put down top law schools or those who think highly of them; I respect them-they open a lot of doors and make becoming successful that much easier; but regardless of where you go I think that what you put into your education is what will determine your success. Not everyone has the 180/4.0 gpa but that doesn't mean they can't excel in the legal field. Law is a business and those who are business savvy shouldn't be ruled out just because they didn't score in the 99 percentile on a standardized test. Just a thought. Good luck to all.


Stop pointing to exceptions to the rule as the standard. That's why they are called "exceptions". Also, many of these individuals graduated law school prior to the great proliferation of law schools due to the realization that they were major cash cows that could take idiots' money (e.g. Cooley). The whole dynamics of legal education and the legal field have changed significantly over the past few decades. You made one of the worst arguments I have seen in a long long time.

"[belbrien], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

- Billy Madison

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belbrien
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby belbrien » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:38 pm

I never said it was the standard. I was pointing out that it is possible and that it can happen and that Law just like any other career is a business and if you've got those skills you can excel in the field. I didn't say you would if you went to a tier 3, I said it's possible.

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EscapeIdaho
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby EscapeIdaho » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:59 pm

Mase85 wrote:Got accepted to Widener, which is a tier 4, its close to my family, rent's not too high, and it will be more affordable. Id like to practice corp law, but that could change once I learn more about it. Delaware ppl boast widener to be great for corp law, but I don't know if that's just a way they cope with the school being tier 4.

However, I have been waitlisted at a T14 and at a tier 2 (77th to be exact) and I'm still waiting on some decisions from a tier 1 and a tier 2...all of these options will definitely be harder to pay for and are a little further from fam/cheap living.

So, tell me if I should stay on the waitlists, go to any tier 1/2 I'm accepted to even if they are lower ranked in 1 & 2, and if Id be foolish to go to the tier4...and if I accept it now as a safety, is it possible to abandon it if a better school removes me from the wait?

Hopefully, I didn't ask a question that people are tired of answering but I would appreciate some input!


I would be seriously interested in knowing your #s that would get you waitlisted at both a T14 and a T2. How many applications did you send out? You might consider waiting until next cycle and trying for more T1/T2 schools.

Before going to Widener, carefully consider things like 1L attrition and unemployment rates. I understand Widener is pretty high on both of those. I am assuming you don't really care about biglaw based on your posts. So if you are going to come out with very minimal debt and are satisfied with job prospects (don't just look at the stats the school provides, see if you can find an attorney who recently graduated from widener and ask them about what happened to people in their class) then attending would not be too bad.

For your last question (not sure if it's been handled yet) you can accept and then go to a different school, but you will likely lose whatever seat deposit you put in at Widener.

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shillim
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby shillim » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:06 pm

LawandOrder wrote:
rayiner wrote:
LawandOrder wrote:Because Cravath is just itching to get all the laterals from SmallLaw that couldn't make the cut the first time around?


It's hardly Cravath or out.

Yes, if you miss the biglaw cut-off, biglaw is probably out for good, but $60k starting plus low debt is hardly failure at life.

Your contention that non-T14s aren't worth full ride is silly. Even if you're highly risk-averse, anything down to USC is at least worth sticker (unless you think you can't even place 2/3!). With some $$, the whole T50 is worth going to.

You seem to think that most law students have rosy prospects outside of the law with their UG degree. It's some major "grass is greener" mentality. If you have an Ivy degree or a practical major, you might be looking at $50k+ with just your UG. If you don't, then it's more like $30k. At that point, a $60k starting salary + little debt has gotta look pretty good.


You certainly are right about it being a case of difference of expectations and outlook on life. You consider $60k starting plus low debt as at least not failing, but if I am going to invest $150,000 in debt plus a similiar forgone amount in income from the three years spent in law school, I think I am fully justified in expecting a job paying deep in to the $100s starting.

I guess I don't get it. I am about a year out of undergrad with one of those "practical majors" making closer to 60 than to 30 and I certainly don't feel like I've succeeded. Why would I want to go to law school and end up in the same position I am now? That's a massive waste of time and money.


Or you can go into high pressure sales (watch "Boiler Room") and make $150k your first year out with only a GED. If money is your goal, there are other ways to do it....

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tseliot
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby tseliot » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:20 pm

Soxy, you are amazing.

Turning excessive douchebaggery (and future child-neglecting SUV driving-isms) into thickly sarcastic haiku form = Awesome.

You've seriously become my favorite poster now.

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redsox8105
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby redsox8105 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:43 pm

I love how these threads always assume that one's starting salary is the salary they'll be making for the rest of their lives. Some great logic there, LSAT wizzes.

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Cara
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Cara » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:51 pm

OP is WL at a T14 but is actually considering going to a T4? Does not compute.

Even if he doesn't get into the T14 he must have the numbers for far better schools than a place like Widener.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby SoxyPirate » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:55 pm

tseliot wrote:Soxy, you are amazing.

Turning excessive douchebaggery (and future child-neglecting SUV driving-isms) into thickly sarcastic haiku form = Awesome.

You've seriously become my favorite poster now.


but not for this site
how would we bottom feeders
know how hard we blow?

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zettsscores40
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby zettsscores40 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:25 pm

The Evil Genius wrote:
belbrien wrote:i think it's a gross generalization to say only attend T1-x law schools if you want to be successful. Look at Joe Biden Jay Schadler -ABC News correspondent and award-winning journalist , William J. Brodsky - CEO and Chairman of the Chicago Board Options Exchange (syracuse law) tim russert (cleveland marshall college of law) Hon. Eugene Pigott associate judge of nys court of appeals (UB law) Adam Firestone '93 (J.D.), CEO, Firestone Vineyard, Frank X. Altimari (brooklyn law school) judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, Barry Salzberg (Brooklyn law school) Chief Executive Officer, Deloitte & Touche USA LLP Jeffrey B. Gewirtz (Brooklyn law school) Senior Vice President and General Counsel, New Jersey Nets, Dorothy Samuels, New York Times editorialist, Peter Franchot, Comptroller of Maryland (Northeastern Law)

I'm not saying this to put down top law schools or those who think highly of them; I respect them-they open a lot of doors and make becoming successful that much easier; but regardless of where you go I think that what you put into your education is what will determine your success. Not everyone has the 180/4.0 gpa but that doesn't mean they can't excel in the legal field. Law is a business and those who are business savvy shouldn't be ruled out just because they didn't score in the 99 percentile on a standardized test. Just a thought. Good luck to all.


Stop pointing to exceptions to the rule as the standard. That's why they are called "exceptions". Also, many of these individuals graduated law school prior to the great proliferation of law schools due to the realization that they were major cash cows that could take idiots' money (e.g. Cooley). The whole dynamics of legal education and the legal field have changed significantly over the past few decades. You made one of the worst arguments I have seen in a long long time.

"[belbrien], what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

- Billy Madison


You do realize that Cooley has been around since the early 70s right? It's not some 90s phenomenon. As for the rest of your post, it's retarded. How is it the worst argument you have seen in a long time? Probably b/c you lack any sense of reading comprehension and wanted to look 'cool' by posting a movie quote to degrade her argument. All she did was say it is possible to do well for yourself coming from a low ranked school, it depends on your goals, drive and business skills. No where did she say it is the norm and she even stated that higher ranked schools will open up more doors and give you room for trial and error. Jesus Christ, is it that hard to understand that what you actually do in your career might matter some more than where you went to school?

Mark71121
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby Mark71121 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:42 pm

zettsscores40 wrote: Jesus Christ, is it that hard to understand that what you actually do in your career might matter some more than where you went to school?


Where you went to school is probably more important, at least in this industry.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: thinking tier 4 when i could wait for tier 1?! help!

Postby SoxyPirate » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:48 pm

Mark71121 wrote:Where you went to school is probably more important, at least in this industry.


As the Campbell grad
tore me apart, I exclaimed:
"I went to Harvard!!!"




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