University of Iowa Class of 2016 Forum

[typ3]

Under review for a few weeks now. 164/3.89.

Good luck to all.

Sorry for the consecutive posts, I'm catching up here. I applied in early November, and didn't hear until mid December (171, 2.9 were my stats for full disclosure here). I'm pretty sure Iowa doesn't really start to make decisions until December. Scholarships will be offered to the top candidates within a few weeks of acceptance, and they'll trickle down to the more fringe applicants when they start to turn those down, likely February, March, and April. Iowans get a boost both for admission and for scholarships, since Iowa has a mandatory 50% Iowa resident quota to reach for the law school.

Also, class sizes have been going down. 3L class was 205 or so, ours was 180, and the 1L class is only 160. I'd imagine they don't go much below that, so you're probably looking at a class of 150-170 depending on the strength of applications. Admissions is busting their ass to make sure they maintain medians and hopefully even bring them up a bit with each incoming class, and smaller class sizes is the way to do that in the current market. That's also better for everyone coming in, because the job market is on the rise with less people in your class to compete for those jobs.

Keep in mind that ties have a LOT to do with legal hiring. If you're from Milwaukee and want to work in Des Moines, going to Iowa probably isn't going to help that much and going to Drake would be a better option. That situation generally applies for other smaller markets too, such as Minnesota, Omaha, etc.

I don't know if I see the class being any larger than last years again.. I think the school would struggle to place all 170 not to mention LSAT test takers fell off a cliff this last year.

One thing that a lot of students don't look at is that rural areas are hiring students. Salaries in these areas range from 50k - 300k (I've met a few who make 400+ but these are legacy exceptions whose family practices go back to the 1910's/20's doing medical / insurance defense). If you can stomach living in a town with 1k-10k people this is a good option. Also people going this route should probably attend whatever school gives them the most money and rack up clinic time.

In my home state there are a lot of veteran attorneys in rural towns getting out of the game with no succession plans and I know the same can be said for a lot of towns / cities in Western Iowa. No one wants to go to these places despite the fact that working with agricultural estates is actually quite lucrative and there are quite a few product liability cases filed against farming equipment manufacturers each year for injuries sustained in the field (a lot of attorneys have become millionaires suing the likes of John Deere for farming accidents).

The problem is convincing students to go to these areas instead of trying to break into the metro areas where there is an absolute glut and there are scores of laid off attorneys with 10+ years of experience. Which is really strange because cost of living is dirt cheap, the economies are stable, you can live pretty large, be home at 5, and hardly ever work 40 hours a week. Granted you don't have the entertainment or shopping options as a big city, but you have the internet.

Just my 2 cents.

[chrisbru]

I don't know if I see the class being any larger than last years again.. I think the school would struggle to place all 170 not to mention LSAT test takers fell off a cliff this last year.

One thing that a lot of students don't look at is that rural areas are hiring students. Salaries in these areas range from 50k - 300k (I've met a few who make 400+ but these are legacy exceptions whose family practices go back to the 1910's/20's doing medical / insurance defense). If you can stomach living in a town with 1k-10k people this is a good option. Also people going this route should probably attend whatever school gives them the most money and rack up clinic time.

In my home state there are a lot of veteran attorneys in rural towns getting out of the game with no succession plans and I know the same can be said for a lot of towns / cities in Western Iowa. No one wants to go to these places despite the fact that working with agricultural estates is actually quite lucrative and there are quite a few product liability cases filed against farming equipment manufacturers each year for injuries sustained in the field (a lot of attorneys have become millionaires suing the likes of John Deere for farming accidents).

The problem is convincing students to go to these areas instead of trying to break into the metro areas where there is an absolute glut and there are scores of laid off attorneys with 10+ years of experience. Which is really strange because cost of living is dirt cheap, the economies are stable, you can live pretty large, be home at 5, and hardly ever work 40 hours a week. Granted you don't have the entertainment or shopping options as a big city, but you have the internet.

Just my 2 cents.

I say 170 just to cover all bases, but it will probably be 150 or 160 your'e right.

Agree with everything said here. The job offer that I have in hand is from a smallish town, probably about 30k people. Its the same situation... He's looking to retire in 5 years or so and doesn't have an exit plan, so he's trying to bring in someone who will eventually take over the firm.

[typ3]

I don't know if I see the class being any larger than last years again.. I think the school would struggle to place all 170 not to mention LSAT test takers fell off a cliff this last year.

One thing that a lot of students don't look at is that rural areas are hiring students. Salaries in these areas range from 50k - 300k (I've met a few who make 400+ but these are legacy exceptions whose family practices go back to the 1910's/20's doing medical / insurance defense). If you can stomach living in a town with 1k-10k people this is a good option. Also people going this route should probably attend whatever school gives them the most money and rack up clinic time.

In my home state there are a lot of veteran attorneys in rural towns getting out of the game with no succession plans and I know the same can be said for a lot of towns / cities in Western Iowa. No one wants to go to these places despite the fact that working with agricultural estates is actually quite lucrative and there are quite a few product liability cases filed against farming equipment manufacturers each year for injuries sustained in the field (a lot of attorneys have become millionaires suing the likes of John Deere for farming accidents).

The problem is convincing students to go to these areas instead of trying to break into the metro areas where there is an absolute glut and there are scores of laid off attorneys with 10+ years of experience. Which is really strange because cost of living is dirt cheap, the economies are stable, you can live pretty large, be home at 5, and hardly ever work 40 hours a week. Granted you don't have the entertainment or shopping options as a big city, but you have the internet.

Just my 2 cents.

I say 170 just to cover all bases, but it will probably be 150 or 160 your'e right.

Agree with everything said here. The job offer that I have in hand is from a smallish town, probably about 30k people. Its the same situation... He's looking to retire in 5 years or so and doesn't have an exit plan, so he's trying to bring in someone who will eventually take over the firm.

There are lots of opportunities like these. They are probably the best out there for law graduates today.

I think another one of the big misconceptions is that just because you aren't in a big city you can't make it "big" in law. There are attorneys in Montana / Wyoming / North Dakota / South Dakota / Iowa etc. that have had 7, 8, 9 figure settlements / verdicts. Eating 33% of 100m is not a bad payday. However, to reach this echelon you need to be a trial lawyer and be really comfortable with people and talking in front of strangers. If you can try a case there will always be room for you in the legal profession because so few people want to / are able to / have any desire to do this.

If you take a case to trial as a plaintiff and get a big pay day you can write your own ticket for awhile in the legal community. This is especially true since so few lawyers want to do or even know how to do a full blown trial. One of the best attorneys in the nation, inner-circle top 100 plaintiff attorney, is a small town lawyer in South Dakota who has spanked insurance companies repeatedly for denying rural health care patients coverage. A couple years ago he got a 6.2m verdict for a woman who died of cancer and was told she wasn't actually disabled and had to go back to work a few weeks before her death. He recently won a 34.2m verdict for a 90 year old woman whose insurance company stopped paying her dementia care. Arguably the best living trial lawyer today is a small town Wyoming lawyer in Jackson. The top trial lawyer of the last 5 years is a blue-collar Hispanic-American lawyer who went to Junior College for undergrad, wound up at Yale Law, was a fish out of water and started his own firm in 2005 representing real people in "unwinnable" cases that no other lawyers would take and has had 250m worth of verdicts and settlements.

There is a ton of legal work to be done out there for people who are elderly, in need, or are working class normal people. The problem is that the way law is practiced and written is meant to keep those in power in a position of power. If you want to make money, start hanging out at nursing homes and talk to elderly people who are neglected, abused, and have their savings stolen. Go hang out and talk with Walmart employees that are repeatedly and systematically unpaid for their overtime. Go talk to rural farmers in North Dakota whose water supplies and families are being put at risk with cancer causing fracking solvents.

The problem is in today's system, if the person you are representing dies during a long drug out litigation battle the insurance companies and corporations the defense will move to throw you suit out because it is moot as the person is now deceased and you start again litigating on behalf of the estate of the deceased person. It may be ten years or more before you receive a judgment. It could be just as long before you receive any money for the judgment. The courts really are where justice for the average person goes to die.

"I could teach an eighth-grader in twenty minutes how to brief a case. Yet for all three years in most law schools the casebook method of learning the law is still in. The matriculating young lawyer is as qualified to represent a client with the education he has suffered through as a doctor who has never seen a patient, who has never held a scalpel in his hand and who learns surgery by having read text books about it and becomes skilled in surgery, if ever, after having stacked up piles of corpses who represent his pathetic learning process."

[michaelm55]

"In Review"

[Presidentjlh]

Submitted my app today. 166/3.51

Hoping/planning on getting a solid education in one of the better Midwestern schools (Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, etc.) and then returning to Nebraska to practice corporate and constitutional law while taking on pro bono cases for people who have no where to go.

Feeling pretty good about life right now.

[chrisbru]

Submitted my app today. 166/3.51

Hoping/planning on getting a solid education in one of the better Midwestern schools (Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, etc.) and then returning to Nebraska to practice corporate and constitutional law while taking on pro bono cases for people who have no where to go.

Feeling pretty good about life right now.

I hope you can achieve your goals, but make sure not to be too disappointed if you have to be flexible in what you want to do in order to get a job.

I think Typ3 will tell you that going to Nebraska is TCR if you want to practice in Nebraska though.

[Presidentjlh]

Submitted my app today. 166/3.51

Hoping/planning on getting a solid education in one of the better Midwestern schools (Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, etc.) and then returning to Nebraska to practice corporate and constitutional law while taking on pro bono cases for people who have no where to go.

Feeling pretty good about life right now.

I hope you can achieve your goals, but make sure not to be too disappointed if you have to be flexible in what you want to do in order to get a job.

I think Typ3 will tell you that going to Nebraska is TCR if you want to practice in Nebraska though.

Yeah, I'm still considering them. Liked the place when I visited it, very warm atmosphere. Great price, too. I've got a lot of decision-making to do, it's going to take a good amount of thinking.

[typ3]

Depending on what sort of corporate counseling you want to do in Omaha I would say go to lower ranked Nebraska or Creighton since most Omaha attorneys are from those two schools and focus on getting top 5% Order of the Coif etc. The only firm that really cares all that much about your school rank would likely be Kutak Rock. Just from speaking to my family members who practice / have practiced at a few of the largest firms in Omaha, you really don't get a big bump by going to Iowa over Nebraska. If you were going to go to a top-14 or top 6 school it would be a different story. However, those firms at Omaha much prefer to hire from their old boy network and Alma matters.

The firms that probably care the least about where you went to school are the newer late 80's / mid 90's firms which seem to be a lot more forward thinking. koley jessen / Blackwell Sanders Peper Martin / Lamson Duncan / Stinson Morrison Hecker.

Just be aware that if you plan to go anywhere in Omaha / Lincoln (every city pretty much), you will be expected to start bringing in clients after your first year as an associate. Ties / Associations in Nebraska >>> Where you went to school if you're going to be in Omaha.

If you plan on going In-House in Omaha at some point go to Creighton / UNL before Iowa. Most business owners in Nebraska are graduates of one of those two schools or they have strong ties to them. The rank of your law school matters for your first job. After that it looses its importance pretty quickly. This is the same for grades etc.

The problem with the legal market is that 1.) the legal market is absolutely glutted (half of the people who go to law school will never practice law, of those I would say only a third will make it 10 years in private practice.) 2.) there isn't a lot of mobility in the profession. It is not like becoming a doctor where you can lateral to other hospital / health networks. Pretty much where you choose to practice coming out of the gate is where you will be stuck. There is less of a market for experienced attorneys than young attorneys, as a newbie straight out of law school, partners can convince you to do the dogshit work no one wants to touch or even fool around with. I've heard horror stories of 1st year associates doing stuff like messy child custodies & divorce litigation at big firms simply because the partners didn't want to touch the work and their longtime clients needed those matters with their 3rd wives handled. These stories were from twenty years ago too and I hear them all the time today. The reality is that as an associate, you really are a glorified paralegal and you'll learn pretty quickly that most legal work can be done by someone without a law degree. Also, because of the endless supply of law school graduates, firms can get away with continually hiring associate workers for cheap to do all of the work while partners enjoy the spoils.. all before throwing the associates to the wolves after 5-6 years right when the associates expect to make partner. Law firms are pyramid schemes. They just need law graduates to do the work for the established entities. If you don't have connections, a family member, or friend keeping a seat warm for you at a firm I would strongly strongly encourage you to go the route of Chris at a small firm with an older person leaving the profession. That's probably the smartest decision I've heard in a really long time.


Edit: Re-read your post. You will never practice constitutional law. There are probably 3 people in the nation who argue constitutional issues and they all went to Harvard and graduated 40 years ago. You will more likely than not end up doing some sort of business litigation since that seems to be the only field where there is constant work. Most transactional work is being taken over by technology.

Edit: I'm going to revisit this again since I got to thinking about this thread. If you are a first generation lawyer, you will be a corporate slave to a big firm if you can find work as an attorney. Small firms act the same way because there has been a reckless overproduction of attorneys for the last 40 years.

Most of the firms you see are chock full of 3rd, 4th, 5th generation lawyers (the same is often true in medicine, ibanking, etc.). Just because you have the degree doesn't mean you get to join the club and make all the money- you are late to the party. You will be an expendable employee for the people who get the work, own the firm, and make all the money- unless you do something like Chris or learn to be a salesman and bring in the work. This is the unfortunate truth for a lot of people with a law-degree (any higher education degree really). The average truck driver makes the same amount as the median salary for last year's law class and works less hours. There are a lot of trade-esque technicians that make the same amount as last years' Iowa Law grads or more... but students keep marching forward thinking that more education is the way to get ahead. Putting myself in the shoes of a partner / firm business owner, I would love the current situation. There are enough graduates out there that I can employ them on unpaid internships and near minimum wage salaries almost indefinitely and convince people to pursue it because it is "prestigious." Although I probably sound preachy, the practice of law is a lot different today than it was 25 / 30 years ago. Today it is not uncommon to find lawyers who starve / file bankruptcy / etc. 30-40 years ago this would not be the case unless they seriously mismanaged their finances.

[Presidentjlh]

I could work anywhere in the state, honestly. While I like cities, I want to do work where it is needed. I have a few connections from family members, friends' parents, but nothing strong.

I know the times are tough, and heck, maybe my life will suck. I never came into this thinking about the money. I just enjoy law. Even all the crappy paper work. It just is who I am. I can't see myself doing anything else.

[typ3]

I could work anywhere in the state, honestly. While I like cities, I want to do work where it is needed. I have a few connections from family members, friends' parents, but nothing strong.

I know the times are tough, and heck, maybe my life will suck. I never came into this thinking about the money. I just enjoy law. Even all the crappy paper work. It just is who I am. I can't see myself doing anything else.

There are lawyers in the central rural parts of the state that make 100-200k that are looking for people to take over their practices that take in every type of work (doing something different everyday is a lot more enjoyable than repeat copy / paste corporate work IMO). Take a look around Grand Island, there was a listing on MergerNetowrk of a NE law practice for sale and the person made around 150k IIRC. I know a lawyer like this in South Dakota who makes around 180-230k annually but can't find anyone to go to rural South Dakota and live in a town of 2k people- instead people would rather go to cities and become corporate or bureaucratic slaves. If you're open to going to a rural area, there is lots of money to be made in Nebraska.

[chrisbru]

I could work anywhere in the state, honestly. While I like cities, I want to do work where it is needed. I have a few connections from family members, friends' parents, but nothing strong.

I know the times are tough, and heck, maybe my life will suck. I never came into this thinking about the money. I just enjoy law. Even all the crappy paper work. It just is who I am. I can't see myself doing anything else.

There are lawyers in the central rural parts of the state that make 100-200k that are looking for people to take over their practices that take in every type of work (doing something different everyday is a lot more enjoyable than repeat copy / paste corporate work IMO). Take a look around Grand Island, there was a listing on MergerNetowrk of a NE law practice for sale and the person made around 150k IIRC. I know a lawyer like this in South Dakota who makes around 180-230k annually but can't find anyone to go to rural South Dakota and live in a town of 2k people- instead people would rather go to cities and become corporate or bureaucratic slaves. If you're open to going to a rural area, there is lots of money to be made in Nebraska.

Again, though, I strongly recommend going to school in the market you want to practice in unless you go T14. I personally love being at Iowa and am very happy here and with my career prospects... But if I came to Iowa wanting to go to Chicago, Omaha, Minneapolis, STL or Kansas City, I'd be kicking myself for not going with the school in that market.

However, there are people from here going to work in each of those markets. These people did well their first year, better than I did, so your mileage may vary. The problem is it is nearly impossible to bank on being top 10%/top third and using that to get a job. I split my 1L summer despite my lackluster grades due to footwork and utilization of my social network. So if your network is in Nebraska (or you want it to be) then going to school there will be better for you overall.

Not to discourage you from Iowa, because it's a good school and Iowa City is great. But you're likely to have a better outcome for what it seems you want to do if you go to school in Nebraska.

[typ3]

I could work anywhere in the state, honestly. While I like cities, I want to do work where it is needed. I have a few connections from family members, friends' parents, but nothing strong.

I know the times are tough, and heck, maybe my life will suck. I never came into this thinking about the money. I just enjoy law. Even all the crappy paper work. It just is who I am. I can't see myself doing anything else.

There are lawyers in the central rural parts of the state that make 100-200k that are looking for people to take over their practices that take in every type of work (doing something different everyday is a lot more enjoyable than repeat copy / paste corporate work IMO). Take a look around Grand Island, there was a listing on MergerNetowrk of a NE law practice for sale and the person made around 150k IIRC. I know a lawyer like this in South Dakota who makes around 180-230k annually but can't find anyone to go to rural South Dakota and live in a town of 2k people- instead people would rather go to cities and become corporate or bureaucratic slaves. If you're open to going to a rural area, there is lots of money to be made in Nebraska.

Again, though, I strongly recommend going to school in the market you want to practice in unless you go T14. I personally love being at Iowa and am very happy here and with my career prospects... But if I came to Iowa wanting to go to Chicago, Omaha, Minneapolis, STL or Kansas City, I'd be kicking myself for not going with the school in that market.

However, there are people from here going to work in each of those markets. These people did well their first year, better than I did, so your mileage may vary. The problem is it is nearly impossible to bank on being top 10%/top third and using that to get a job. I split my 1L summer despite my lackluster grades due to footwork and utilization of my social network. So if your network is in Nebraska (or you want it to be) then going to school there will be better for you overall.

Not to discourage you from Iowa, because it's a good school and Iowa City is great. But you're likely to have a better outcome for what it seems you want to do if you go to school in Nebraska.

+1

Don't be one of the people who comes to Iowa from California / New York etc. with an expectation to get back there. It won't happen.

Also if people want jobs in general they should look to rural areas. I know of a town in rural Iowa that is paying 85k just for someone with a professional degree to run the YMCA. The problem is that no one wants to go there and run it. Everyone wants to go to Chicago or the city... or get a law degree to work for 58k (last year's starting annual salary out of Iowa). It is funny that the U Iowa Foundation chairman told me earlier this year at the fundraiser that he tells every student to go to North Dakota to find work and pay off their debt. Hardly anyone listens.

Edit: Just looked up park manager jobs.. you can be a park manager in Wyoming with a BA degree and get nearly 30 days off a year and make 70k. The average graduate and lawyer in practice after 3 more years of education often won't reach this salary nor freedom.

[feralinfant]

in via e-mail.

[kingsfield69]

in via e-mail.

+1.

Congrats.

[chrisbru]

Congrats guys!

[typ3]

FWIW: I just spoke with a family member who is a partner at one of Omaha's largest 3 firms. He said that hiring in the market is ok (they added 3 associates this year). However he did say this his firm gives no pumps to where one goes to school. The only thing that matters to them is 1.) connections to Omaha and the business community 2.) personal skills 3.) academic performance.

[chrisbru]

I just accepted a job offer with a mid-size (about 12 attorney) law firm in Des Moines. Although I have ample connections to Des Moines (grew up there), I do not have any personal or family connections with anyone at this firm.

So, it IS possible for a median student to get a decent law firm job.

[typ3]

I just accepted a job offer with a mid-size (about 12 attorney) law firm in Des Moines. Although I have ample connections to Des Moines (grew up there), I do not have any personal or family connections with anyone at this firm.

So, it IS possible for a median student to get a decent law firm job.

Congrats. Now the real struggle in law school begins. Staying motivated through the slog.

[0808millerd]

I checked my ISIS status today and the requirements state that I need to send my undergrad transcript to them. I'm confused as to why they need that when it was included in the the packet the LSAC sent over when I applied. I am going to send it to them directly since they provided the address but has anyone else had an issue with this?

[feralinfant]

I checked my ISIS status today and the requirements state that I need to send my undergrad transcript to them. I'm confused as to why they need that when it was included in the the packet the LSAC sent over when I applied. I am going to send it to them directly since they provided the address but has anyone else had an issue with this?

if you're sure that you successfully submitted your transcripts to LSAC then you need to call iowa and ask them what's going on. LSAC should have submitted them to the school. you shouldn't need to or really even be able to send in your transcripts yourself.

[chrisbru]

I checked my ISIS status today and the requirements state that I need to send my undergrad transcript to them. I'm confused as to why they need that when it was included in the the packet the LSAC sent over when I applied. I am going to send it to them directly since they provided the address but has anyone else had an issue with this?

I thought undergrad transcript was unofficial through ISIS... Iowa requires an official transcript prior to matriculation, but not prior to your admissions decision if I remember correctly.

[0808millerd]

I checked my ISIS status today and the requirements state that I need to send my undergrad transcript to them. I'm confused as to why they need that when it was included in the the packet the LSAC sent over when I applied. I am going to send it to them directly since they provided the address but has anyone else had an issue with this?

if you're sure that you successfully submitted your transcripts to LSAC then you need to call iowa and ask them what's going on. LSAC should have submitted them to the school. you shouldn't need to or really even be able to send in your transcripts yourself.

They definitely were submitted through LSAC correctly as I have already gotten acceptances from other schools that I applied to at the same time. Guess I need to call.

[0808millerd]

I checked my ISIS status today and the requirements state that I need to send my undergrad transcript to them. I'm confused as to why they need that when it was included in the the packet the LSAC sent over when I applied. I am going to send it to them directly since they provided the address but has anyone else had an issue with this?

if you're sure that you successfully submitted your transcripts to LSAC then you need to call iowa and ask them what's going on. LSAC should have submitted them to the school. you shouldn't need to or really even be able to send in your transcripts yourself.

They definitely were submitted through LSAC correctly as I have already gotten acceptances from other schools that I applied to at the same time. Guess I need to call.

According to the admissions office, they are having some computer issues and that is an error and you only submit your transcript when you matriculate. Too bad their computer system can't have an issue that gives me an acceptance today...

[JXander]

.

[chrisbru]

My most recent application status date says 11/2 and they received the application on 10/29. For those admitted (or any others), did the status ever change from "complete" to "in review?"

154; 3.84; URM; male; TX resident.

Relatively sure that it changes from complete to in review when they start looking at your application. You should be fine though, my guess. URM and over the GPA median but under LSAT. Usually Iowa seems to take URMs who are over one of the medians without much problem. There are tons of people on the opposite side (high LSAT, low gpa) to offset, and Iowa is dying for URMs.