US NEWS Rankings 2011? Forum

[wackadoodle]

http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com/leit ... -scho.html

Vault, whose rankings of law firms by prestige attracts some interest, has now produced, via a largely obscure methodology, a ranking of law schools. The "top 25" is not as silly as the Cooley "top 25," but at least with Cooley one knows why the results are ridiculous, because the ranking method is transparent (and transparently absurd). The ordinal listing in Vault is equally absurd, but the rhyme-or-reason of the absurdity is harder to pin down given how little Vault tells us about the "method":

but the best part is the quotes that the raters left:

he results are even weirder when one looks at the representative comments from evaluators that Vault shares on its web site. Regarding #1 Stanford:

"Mixed bag, not always practical lawyers"

"Unprepared and uninterested in private practice; entitled"

Where is the love for #1? (Well, there's a little: "Every graduate I've encountered knows how to take an issue apart; great analytical skills.")

Are they happier with #4 Virginia? Not really:

"Maybe it's the law school's emphasis on softball and beer, but the lack of work ethic shows in recent grads."

Regarding #12 Duke:

"Graduates of this school are not prepared to practice law. There must be no practical training provided at all.

But it's not just Duke, it's even #5 Chicago:

"Law school education is too theoretical - would like to see lawyers with more 'practical' experience and application of the law"

And #10 Yale

"Weakness is lack of exposure to practical experience"

And #17 Georgetown:

"The lawyers I've worked with from this school were sloppy and unprepared."

"We've hired several lawyers from this school and they all have poor people skills and produce low-quality work."

Ouch. But wait, look what Vault reports someone saying about #2 Michigan:

"Overrated. Produces a lot of mediocre lawyers"

Ouch again! And a double put-down for #13 Penn:

"Like Columbia, students sometimes seem a little ungrounded"

And #22 Texas gets whacked too:

"Not impressed. Research skills not up to par."

many involving comparisons that seem vaguely left-handed. UCLA, we are told, is "The Fordham of the west coast." On Michigan: "For producing quality graduates, UM is on the heels of the top Ivies." On Minnesota: "One of the better state schools." On George Washington: "A law school on the rise, but not there yet." BU: "Solid; high 2nd tier." North Carolina: "Getting better." Vanderbilt: "Very strong at top of class, not quite as strong as very top tier schools below top of class." Wisconsin: "Surprisingly good candidates."

Moral of the story: every school sucks in some way?

yeah it pretty much sounds like they don't like anyone....encouraging

[clintonius]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-ran ... kings.html

Can we infer that part-time data will no longer be included in the standard rankings, then? Wasn't it only the 2009 numbers that included part-time info?

[PDaddy]

While I am not drinking the Yale Kool Aid everybody else drinks (and I truly believe Chicago is underrated and underranked), I believe it is a very good law school. But if you ask me which graduates I would want to serve me, Yale would be further down the list than #6. The reason? The better your numbers, the worse your people skills. That's why the Yale lab rats wind up cloistered away from the real public. I don't hate on Yale, I just see it for what it is and isn't. And what it isn't is the top law school in the nation.

I wasn't referring to a single post. Everytime I see something retarded posted on these forums, it always seems to have your name to the left of it.

http://weblaw.usc.edu/why/students/orgs ... ersity.pdf

Try reading the above. Maybe that will give you some perspective on the rankings, and why the schools cannot really be compared effectively under the current systems.

You think my posts are "retarded" because I refuse to accept something as true or fact just because the majority accepts it that way. I'm not a follower; I am a leader, and my posts are just fine. You may not agree with or like what I have to say, but that's your choice. Ironically, the rankings are the one instance in which I am just freewheeling it. I can admit that.

You're probably just jealous of my looks. That's why you attack me.

[PDaddy]

While I am not drinking the Yale Kool Aid everybody else drinks (and I truly believe Chicago is underrated and underranked), I believe it is a very good law school. But if you ask me which graduates I would want to serve me, Yale would be further down the list than #6. The reason? The better your numbers, the worse your people skills. That's why the Yale lab rats wind up cloistered away from the real public. I don't hate on Yale, i just see it for what it is and isn't. And what it isn't is the top law school in the nation.

You're narrowly focused on only one area (practice) in your ranking of schools. Of course you're entitled to your opinion on that matter but you don't even do a good job at presenting it. Do you have any statistics that show Yale grads make worse practitioners than Harvard or Stanford grads?

Since you asked...

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa/edu ... mtype=2954

VAULT'S TOP 25 LAW SCHOOL RANKINGS

Vault surveyed nearly 400 hiring partners, hiring committee members, associate interviewers and recruiting professionals across the country on which law schools best prepare their graduates to achieve in the firm environment. With 58% of law school graduates entering private practice, Vault's law school rankings fill an important gap with their unique emphasis on employability.

Vault surveyed only those people who directly assess the value of law school graduates in the real world once they enter the workforce- those individuals responsible for evaluating and hiring law school students. The respondents--who represent over 100 law firms-- were advised to consider the following factors in their rankings: research and writing skills; knowledge of legal doctrine; possession of other relevant knowledge (e.g., science for IP lawyers); and ability to manage a calendar and work with an assistant.

1 Stanford Law School
2 University of Michigan Law School
3 New York University School of Law
4 University of Virginia School of Law
5 University of Chicago Law School
6 Harvard Law School
7 Columbia Law School
8 UC Berkeley School of Law
9 Northwestern University School of Law
10 Yale Law School

Just like U.S. News rankings, I wouldn't put too much stock in this one particular poll, but it does provide some support that Stanford and Harvard grads make better practitioners than Yale grads do (at least according to those who make hiring decisions).

Excellent post! And I am mad that you beat me to it. I read this thing a few years ago. I think this is the problem with rankings in general. No matter what methodologies are used, we wind up with too narrow of a definition of what makes "quality". I will say this for argument's sake: the ability to produce practitioners is a widely valued paradigm, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best paradigm. I and many others happen to think it is, but maybe the school that can balance the production of practitioners and scholars/academics is the top school.

[sam.emton]

Does anyone know when the rankings will actually be released?

[holydonkey]

Does anyone know when the rankings will actually be released?

8 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes and 20 seconds.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... te-schools

[de5igual]

Does anyone know when the rankings will actually be released?

8 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes and 20 seconds.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... te-schools

so the leaked version should be coming around any day now...

[Panther7]

Does anyone know when the rankings will actually be released?

8 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes and 20 seconds.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... te-schools

so the leaked version should be coming around any day now...

I don't think that will happen this year since the online version is being released like 2 weeks ahead of the print version from what I understand. I think this is precisely to prevent a leak.

[Bustang]

Does anyone know when the rankings will actually be released?

8 days, 13 hours, 28 minutes and 20 seconds.
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... te-schools

so the leaked version should be coming around any day now...

[Topher]

So, I've been reading over a few of these threads and got to wondering...

Why is there so much hatred for Georgetown?

[sibley]

So, I've been reading over a few of these threads and got to wondering...

Why is there so much hatred for Georgetown?

I dunno. I'm still sore that they rejected me and let in my peers. but I think it's something about them stuffing their school full to stay in the t14?

[ze2151]

because, topher, apparently there are only 4 law schools in the entire country worth attending.

[Topher]

because, topher, apparently there are only 4 law schools in the entire country worth attending.

And, if I follow this all correctly, UT is one of them, but Georgetown is not? Damn, I shouldn't have applied Early decision.

[JOThompson]

MY guess on T-14

1)Yale
2)Harvard
3)Stanford
4)Columbia
5)Chicago
6) NYU
7) Berkeley
Penn
9) Michigan
10) Virginia
11) Duke
12) Northwestern
13) Cornell
14) UT-Austin
15) Georgetown
16) UCLA

Total guesses and mild wishing on the chicago part

I think Cornell's gonna drop. It's an undesirable location, especially for getting jobs during and after (other than that I haven't the faintest)

I expect that Cornell will retain or even improve its ranking, since the school has experienced a huge surge in applications this cycle. As for job placement, it does well in NYC, which is a desirable market for many folks.

[Pearalegal]

because, topher, apparently there are only 4 law schools in the entire country worth attending.

Georgetown is a great school. However, I think it has a distinct reputation that isn't all that flattering--at least, this is true in the DC biglaw world.

The size, the competitiveness of the students, and the idea that the law center, being next to 395, doesn't foster a sense of community...I think this all contributes to the feeling that, for all of its obvious pluses, Georgetown is somewhat sloppy. That, and because so many grads want to work in DC, employment out of Georgetown was seen as pretty rough this cycle.

I'm sure thats not fair, but its definitely a reputation here in snobby DC biglaw, and I think what filters into 0L's opinions.

That said, my firm has plenty of great attorneys from Georgetown and several of the associates I work with have great things to say about the law center.

[holydonkey]

Don't listen to these threads. Georgetown is a pretty good school that's just run into some hard times. They've good a completely respectable OCI and LRAP program. No one should feel ashamed to attend Georgetown.

[09042014]

Don't listen to these threads. Georgetown is a pretty good school that's just run into some hard times. They've good a completely respectable OCI and LRAP program. No one should feel ashamed to attend Georgetown.

It's the best nont13 in the nation. Also the best law center in America.

[webbylu87]

Don't listen to these threads. Georgetown is a pretty good school that's just run into some hard times. They've good a completely respectable OCI and LRAP program. No one should feel ashamed to attend Georgetown.

I'd give an arm to go to Georgetown. Haters keep hatin'.

[JOThompson]

I liked my GULC visit (especially the SCOTUS room), but I was less than impressed with the class sizes and atmosphere.

[webbylu87]

Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.

[09042014]

Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.

Why would you possibly do that?

[webbylu87]

Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.

Why would you possibly do that?

Sorry?

[Pearalegal]

Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.

Why would you possibly do that?

You know perfectly well why someone would do that.

[Torvon]

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-ran ... kings.html

Can we infer that part-time data will no longer be included in the standard rankings, then? Wasn't it only the 2009 numbers that included part-time info?

It sounds like to me that the part-time ranking will remain a specialized ranking and the part-time stats will still be included in the overall ranking.

[JOThompson]

Does anyone have any idea what time the rankings will come out on the 15th? I have a seat deposit that needs to be postmarked on the 15th and I'd be interested in seeing how the rankings pan out before I send that in.

Why would you possibly do that?

I can see the value in that, especially when you're considering schools that have steadily slipped over the years. If the rate of decrease suddenly intensifies, I'd be justly worried (Iowa).