With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.

As a black male and with no $ offered from either, which school should I attend?

Howard University
53
66%
Washington College of Law
27
34%
 
Total votes: 80

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ATOIsp07
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With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:10 pm

From my own curiosity inspired from a previous thread, I would like to know which school would make more sense for me to attend as a URM (black male). I'm not really expecting to get money from either school so, with money as a non-factor, what should my option be? Consider employment in DC, salary, etc.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Jay-Electronica » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:13 pm

is that WashU or American?? And what are your goals?

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baboon309
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby baboon309 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:15 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:From my own curiosity inspired from a previous thread, I would like to know which school would make more sense for me to attend as a URM (black male). I'm not really expecting to get money from either school so, with money as a non-factor, what should my option be? Consider employment in DC, salary, etc.


There were over 500 firms OCI in Howard before the criss.
That number was even more than Cornell.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:41 pm

IDILL_E wrote:is that WashU or American?? And what are your goals?



Washington College of Law (American)...i'm looking to either go into the Public Interest sector or pursue a judicial clerkship. and i'm looking to enter the DC market and work my way from there.

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billyez
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby billyez » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:44 pm

I think this depends on how much money Howard gives you - but I see you put "with everything equal" which I believe is a rather impossible phrase. Things aren't going to be equal here. The difference between a four tier school and American's ranking is too great to discount other matters that define their inequality.

I know Howard is prestigious in my community, but I really don't know how prestigious it is in the law community...I would only go if money is involved and I just think people who decide to attend when they have opportunities in the top 30 or 20 should look at the dollars and cents.

drsomebody
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby drsomebody » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:54 pm

If you think that you have the scholarly dedication to excel in your class and if you're comfortable with the history and social structure of a HBCU then you should attend Howard. It is a university that provides fantastic opportunities to those students with the drive to succeed. If you're not as confident in your ability to rise to the top of the class or aren't as comfortable with attending a HBCU, American might be the better option.

The best idea is to visit both universities and see which has an institutional culture that you prefer.

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Jay-Electronica
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Jay-Electronica » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:57 pm

Honestly, I dont think you can make a wrong choice here. Go with which one you prefer.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:21 pm

i don't think i can make a wrong choice, either. but i can understand both sides of the argument: Howard had enormous amounts of OCI interviews and the top 1/3 does well BUT American is a top 50 school and has an extensive network of its own in DC and has a high number of clerkships, as well!

i gotta keep thinking this one over!

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najumobi
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby najumobi » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:31 pm

ATOIsp07 wrote:From my own curiosity inspired from a previous thread, I would like to know which school would make more sense for me to attend as a URM (black male). I'm not really expecting to get money from either school so, with money as a non-factor, what should my option be? Consider employment in DC, salary, etc.

howard is TCR.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:39 am

najumobi wrote:
ATOIsp07 wrote:From my own curiosity inspired from a previous thread, I would like to know which school would make more sense for me to attend as a URM (black male). I'm not really expecting to get money from either school so, with money as a non-factor, what should my option be? Consider employment in DC, salary, etc.

howard is TCR.


I'm sorry..i'm not familiar with all of TLS' initial responses...what does "TCR" mean?

jerjon2
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby jerjon2 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:46 am

The Credited Response

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kurama20
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby kurama20 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:48 am

HOWARD-- low tuition and a pretty good shot at Biglaw (especially in NYC and DC).

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ATOIsp07
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:22 am

interesting....anyone have any links so i can compare employment data from recent years ('07, '08, '09) between both schools? it would be greatly appreciated! i'm going to examine the stats from these two schools to the T

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najumobi
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby najumobi » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:35 am

ATOIsp07 wrote:interesting....anyone have any links so i can compare employment data from recent years ('07, '08, '09) between both schools? it would be greatly appreciated! i'm going to examine the stats from these two schools to the T

according to usnews 2007 grads:

american
36% over 60k (firms and business)
30% under 60k (firms and business)
33% public service at 53k- 32% mediocre
17% govt
9.5% clerkships with 1% federal
6.5% pi
1% academia
0% unknown

howard
29% over 125k (firms and business)
33.5% under 125k (firms and business)
34.5% ps at 52k- 31.5% med
15% govt
14.5% clerkships with 4% federal
5% pi
1.5% academia
1.5% unknown

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:36 am

Howard Starting Salaries of 2007 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $125,000
Median private sector starting salary $145,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $160,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 62%
Median public service starting salary $52,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2007)
Percent employed in academia 1.7%
Percent employed in business and industry 15.1%
Percent employed in government 15.1%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 14.3%
Percent employed in law firms 47.1%
Percent employed in public interest 5.0%
Percent employed in an unknown field 1.7%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 4.2%

Please note that with 47% in private practice and 62% reporting = top 29% of the total class contributed to the salary distribution


American Starting Salaries of 2007 Graduates Employed Full-time
25th percentile private sector starting salary $60,000
Median private sector starting salary $90,000
75th percentile private sector starting salary $145,000
Percent in the private sector who reported salary information 73%
Median public service starting salary $53,000
Areas of Legal Practice (Class of 2007)
Percent employed in academia 0.9%
Percent employed in business and industry 12.7%
Percent employed in government 16.9%
Percent employed in all judicial clerkships 9.6%
Percent employed in law firms 53.1%
Percent employed in public interest 6.7%
Percent employed in an unknown field 0.2%
Percent employed in a judicial clerkship by an Article III federal judge 1.1%

Please note that with 53% in private practice and 73% reporting = top 38% of the total class contributed to the salary distribution

At first glance it would appear as though Howard graduates make a hell of a lot more - but once you really think about it, not really.

It's impossible to compare Howard to any other non-HBCU - the reason is it creates this question:

Would you be better off simply being a URM and finishing at American than graduating from Howard?

i.e. would you be better off simply graduating at median from American than finishing at median from Howard?

I personally think that you would be a hell of a lot better off finishing at median at American than finishing at the median at Howard.

The issue is, there is not data to support either conclusion.

Sorry if this didn't help :-(

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najumobi
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby najumobi » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:40 am

Aberzombie, the data i quoted for reported salary takes the percentage of grads reporting into account. i have to disagree and say that merely top 1/3 at howard can get high paying jobs while that rank at american cant. taking federal clerkships into account top 37% at american can make 60k or more and top 33% at howard can make 125k or more (this is actually consistent with what howard students have been saying). that's a huge difference.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:49 am

najumobi wrote:Aberzombie, the data i quoted for reported salary takes the percentage of grads reporting into account. i have to disagree and say that merely top 1/3 at howard can get high paying jobs while that rank at american cant. taking federal clerkships into account top 37% at american can make 60k or more and top 33% at howard can make 125k or more (this is actually consistent with what howard students have been saying). that's a huge difference.


The whole point of my post was to say that you cannot compare employment outcomes of an HBCU with a non HBCU with a black male.

See
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
i.e. would you be better off simply graduating at median from American than finishing at median from Howard?

I personally think that you would be a hell of a lot better off finishing at median at American than finishing at the median at Howard.


Whether or not American generally has lesser Big Law placement overall is moot to the OP's predicament.

i.e. would an AA male have better opportunities at the equivalent rank at American vs Howard?

I was simply saying that there is absolutely 0 data for that.

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Ken
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Ken » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:58 am

Very tough call, although I am somewhat leaning towards WCL if you are staying in DC. I think American has a stronger regional reputation whereas Howard places graduates outside of DC more often. The profile on Howard was just posted and although I am sure you have already done a lot of due diligence, I include the link in case anyone is interested:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/howard-u ... chool.html

Best of luck, no bad choice here.

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najumobi
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby najumobi » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:03 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Whether or not American generally has lesser Big Law placement overall is moot to the OP's predicament.

i.e. would an AA male have better opportunities at the equivalent rank at American vs Howard?

I was simply saying that there is absolutely 0 data for that.

ok ic what you're saying.

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ATOIsp07
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby ATOIsp07 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:04 am

Thank you, Ken! And thanks to najumobi and aberzombie!

I'm hating myself for this deliberation. OK, to make the issue less complicated, what if I finished above median at Howard and at median at WCL? Would my employment hunt be better one way or the other? And vice-versa?

I figure, going to law school, I'm coming out of debt, anyways. I've got used to that fact. Considering this, Howard would make more sense in regards to minimizing it. But I suppose that's another issue.
Last edited by ATOIsp07 on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:06 am

najumobi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Whether or not American generally has lesser Big Law placement overall is moot to the OP's predicament.

i.e. would an AA male have better opportunities at the equivalent rank at American vs Howard?

I was simply saying that there is absolutely 0 data for that.

ok ic what you're saying.


Sorry.

In hindsight I realized it was sort of confusing.

Ken wrote:Very tough call, although I am somewhat leaning towards WCL if you are staying in DC. I think American has a stronger regional reputation whereas Howard places graduates outside of DC more often. The profile on Howard was just posted and although I am sure you have already done a lot of due diligence, I include the link in case anyone is interested:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/howard-u ... chool.html

Best of luck, no bad choice here.


Ken's advice is pretty good.

The more I think I about everything that has to be considered, the less I would like the idea of the OP finishing at the median or lower at Howard (at least at American, the OP would likely receive a "boost" that he would not receive at Howard).

But once again, no data.

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najumobi
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby najumobi » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:07 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
The more I think I about everything that has to be considered, the less I would like the idea of the OP finishing at the median or lower at Howard (at least at American, the OP would likely receive a "boost" that he would not receive at Howard).

But once again, no data.

what do you mean by "boost"?

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:25 am

najumobi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
The more I think I about everything that has to be considered, the less I would like the idea of the OP finishing at the median or lower at Howard (at least at American, the OP would likely receive a "boost" that he would not receive at Howard).

But once again, no data.

what do you mean by "boost"?


Some firms have % of class cut offs and AA's don't have to meet them. I know this for a fact but it's not written down because of possible law suits.

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Kohinoor
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby Kohinoor » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:36 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
najumobi wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
The more I think I about everything that has to be considered, the less I would like the idea of the OP finishing at the median or lower at Howard (at least at American, the OP would likely receive a "boost" that he would not receive at Howard).

But once again, no data.

what do you mean by "boost"?


Some firms have % of class cut offs and AA's don't have to meet them. I know this for a fact but it's not written down because of possible law suits.

Friend of a friend?

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oberlin08
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Re: With everything equal, WCL or Howard?

Postby oberlin08 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:40 am

Howard. Being an AA Male from D.C.-with a family full of lawyers (and doctors) in the city - I wouldn't even think twice about this.




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