0L Ladies - Female C/O 2019 Applicants Forum

[SlithyTove]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/smart-ki ... take-over/

ATL has pretty much always been garbage (besides their rankings which actually use somewhat relevant criteria) but this is a new low.

That headline really pissed me off too. Both on a micro ("girls"?) and a macro level (really, so it's only male students in those admission stats?).

Dumbest article ever!

I feel like what pisses me off the most is calling female law students "girls" even though the median age for an entering 1L is like mid 20s...we're women. Not girls.

I guess with more women in law we can expect salaries to drop - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upsho ... .html?_r=0

As someone who came through engineering school (very few women) and work at an engineering company (almost NO women) - the outright sexism is infuriating - everything from little things said in the workplace to bigger issues that make it clear the glass ceiling is real.

Yup! I'm a team manager at work; doesn't stop dudes from calling me "honey." Was going to embed a rage gif but doesn't look like I can. None of these emoji are sufficient

I spent a few years working in a hardware store so I can definitely relate but tbh, this patronizing attitude is EVERYWHERE, even in ostensibly female dominated professions like education (where men still disproportionately hold leadership/administrative positions). This article pissed me off so much I just wanted to ignore it but I decided to share because I think that it's so important to be aware that the weak, stupid female is still a very real and widely accepted stereotyped.

[Lbeth91]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/smart-ki ... take-over/

ATL has pretty much always been garbage (besides their rankings which actually use somewhat relevant criteria) but this is a new low.

That headline really pissed me off too. Both on a micro ("girls"?) and a macro level (really, so it's only male students in those admission stats?).

Dumbest article ever!

I feel like what pisses me off the most is calling female law students "girls" even though the median age for an entering 1L is like mid 20s...we're women. Not girls.

I guess with more women in law we can expect salaries to drop - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upsho ... .html?_r=0

As someone who came through engineering school (very few women) and work at an engineering company (almost NO women) - the outright sexism is infuriating - everything from little things said in the workplace to bigger issues that make it clear the glass ceiling is real.

Yup! I'm a team manager at work; doesn't stop dudes from calling me "honey." Was going to embed a rage gif but doesn't look like I can. None of these emoji are sufficient

I spent a few years working in a hardware store so I can definitely relate but tbh, this patronizing attitude is EVERYWHERE, even in ostensibly female dominated professions like education (where men still disproportionately hold leadership/administrative positions). This article pissed me off so much I just wanted to ignore it but I decided to share because I think that it's so important to be aware that the weak, stupid female is still a very real and widely accepted stereotyped.

This is what drives me every day to get a law degree and hopefully find a way to deal with at least some of the sexist stupidity we all see everyday. I'm guessing most of you all feel the same way.

[Supercalifragilistic]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/smart-ki ... take-over/

ATL has pretty much always been garbage (besides their rankings which actually use somewhat relevant criteria) but this is a new low.

That headline really pissed me off too. Both on a micro ("girls"?) and a macro level (really, so it's only male students in those admission stats?).

Dumbest article ever!

I feel like what pisses me off the most is calling female law students "girls" even though the median age for an entering 1L is like mid 20s...we're women. Not girls.

EXACTLY.

[darlenealderson]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

[jtg21]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

I don't feel hesitant to craft negotiation letters, but I feel weird about going back multiple times. I feel like it should be a one shot thing, but I know people go back multiple times to get offers increased. I definitely felt the weirdness about negotiations when I got my first job out of college, and wonder to this day, if I could've gotten a salary increase before starting.

[zozo1717]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

[barley]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

[birdstheword]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

This is 100% true -- and the crusher when you think about it is that most of the time after salary is first established, raises are in terms of percentage of base pay, so if you've ever looked at a retirement-account estimator...you know that that difference compounds pretty drastically over time. My former (female) manager gave me a book called "Women Don't Ask" and made me promise to negotiate when I was offered a full-time position from my internship; I did, and I've negotiated most raises since then, pretty aggressively too (since it was with her so I felt comfortable-ish), and quite successfully. (Negotiating with anyone else still makes me pee myself. Don't worry.) But: YOU SHOULD DO IT ANYWAY. Do market research and come armed with hard data; I used Glassdoor for similar positions. Worst case, they say no (which has also happened to me); no one is going to fire you (unless you ask for a million dollars; that's the other helpful thing Glassdoor is for -- helping YOU get a sense of what's reasonable), and in fact, they will likely respect you more. I've been told that explicitly.

Also, a helpful tip I got was to frame it like this: "I'm loyal to this company and I would like to be able to stay here and continue working with this team. Higher compensation would make it easier for me to do that. Are you able to offer a higher salary?" Don't be the person to give the number; they'll often surprise you. Make it clear that they're getting value out of it -- you being more likely to stay. Same thing carries over to schools. They clearly want you, or they wouldn't have let you in. "Because of [a, b, and c reasons -- e.g., its award-winning faculty, its strong academic concentration in human trafficking], [X Law School] is my top / one of my top choices, and I would absolutely love to be able to attend. A lighter financial burden would make that decision much easier for me. Are you able to offer a higher scholarship?"

[SlithyTove]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

I'm really interested in this topic and have been planning to read the book mentioned in this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/dailymuse/2 ... 16a6f61635 but haven't gotten to it yet. I should definitely do that. The article is interesting in itself though.

But anyway, yes. Women negotiate significantly less frequently than men and it impacts our salaries. I feel like I jerk negotiating too (and I've definitely gotten some looks/comments about being a money grubber from non-law school bound friends who think I should just be thankful for the offers I got) but the truth is that they expect us to do it and if we don't, someone else will get the money that we could have had.

My SO is in another (non-law) grad program right now and I got to watch his friends who graduated last year go out and get jobs, which turned out to be really interesting. Nearly everyone got the same or similar starting salary offers but overwhelmingly, the men negotiated and the women just took what they were offered. So now, all his male friends started their careers at $5,000-$10,000 more per year than their female counterparts just because the women didn't even try to negotiate which sets the trajectory for their compensation throughout their entire careers. As uncomfortable as it may be for those of us who feel like our success is tied to our ability to be nice and not make waves, schools and employers will try and get away with giving you least amount that they can, expecting you to ask for more. If you don't, you're not hurting anyone but yourself.

Easier said than done for me too. But like zozo said, it's our future we're talking about, the worst they can say is 'no'. I go by the "it's not over until you get two nos in a row" rule and as long as you're straightforward and polite you've got nothing to lose and so much to gain.

[barley]

I haven't been here in a while and I hope people don't get upset by this topic...but does anyone else feel like they aren't being as assertive as the men wrt scholly negotiation? Like it seems to me that some of the guys I know feel a lot more entitled to ask for more money, while I feel bad and feel like I'm looking like a spoiled brat. I hope this isn't my own internalized crap and was wondering if others could relate, especially as it is the season for this.

Totally with you. I've been trying to go about it in a polite, but assertive way - but it definitely has me out of my shell. I was actually at an ASW and someone came up to our group (all ladies) and said "You have to negotiate. An admissions person told me that women don't negotiate nearly as often as men do." Seems like a common phenomena. Just remember - you're advocating for your value and this is your future (i.e. how much debt you have to carry, how it may limit your career, etc.).

I forgot where I read this, but women also don't negotiate as often/aggressively as men do when it comes to salaries as well. I can totally see that happening in law school admissions/financial aid as well.

I'm really interested in this topic and have been planning to read the book mentioned in this article: http://www.forbes.com/sites/dailymuse/2 ... 16a6f61635 but haven't gotten to it yet. I should definitely do that. The article is interesting in itself though.

But anyway, yes. Women negotiate significantly less frequently than men and it impacts our salaries. I feel like I jerk negotiating too (and I've definitely gotten some looks/comments about being a money grubber from non-law school bound friends who think I should just be thankful for the offers I got) but the truth is that they expect us to do it and if we don't, someone else will get the money that we could have had.

My SO is in another (non-law) grad program right now and I got to watch his friends who graduated last year go out and get jobs, which turned out to be really interesting. Nearly everyone got the same or similar starting salary offers but overwhelmingly, the men negotiated and the women just took what they were offered. So now, all his male friends started their careers at $5,000-$10,000 more per year than their female counterparts just because the women didn't even try to negotiate which sets the trajectory for their compensation throughout their entire careers. As uncomfortable as it may be for those of us who feel like our success is tied to our ability to be nice and not make waves, schools and employers will try and get away with giving you least amount that they can, expecting you to ask for more. If you don't, you're not hurting anyone but yourself.

Easier said than done for me too. But like zozo said, it's our future we're talking about, the worst they can say is 'no'. I go by the "it's not over until you get two nos in a row" rule and as long as you're straightforward and polite you've got nothing to lose and so much to gain.

I agree with this so much. Also, what you said about starting salaries reminded me of the article I read in the first place, about legislation that was proposed to address this exact issue. I'm not sure if any laws have actually gone into place, but several states have had discussions about prohibiting potential employers from asking for salary history because it gives men - who start out with higher salaries for the reason you observed - a leg up toward receiving higher pay when they take new job.

[darlenealderson]

I've definitely started the negotiation game already with a couple of schools, so it's not that I'm not doing it, I just feel very uncomfortable. But I normally would have the tendency to say "oh, well, that's what they gave me so that's what I deserve." I'd love to see statistics on how much aid levels vary between men and women at some of the top law schools. If women really aren't negotiating as much, and that applies on a broad scale, you'd think there'd be a measurable difference. I wish that was part of the info required of schools (if it is, someone point me to it!).

[SlithyTove]

I've definitely started the negotiation game already with a couple of schools, so it's not that I'm not doing it, I just feel very uncomfortable. But I normally would have the tendency to say "oh, well, that's what they gave me so that's what I deserve." I'd love to see statistics on how much aid levels vary between men and women at some of the top law schools. If women really aren't negotiating as much, and that applies on a broad scale, you'd think there'd be a measurable difference. I wish that was part of the info required of schools (if it is, someone point me to it!).

That's a great point, I'd love to see that data.

[seashell.economy]

I actually have no fears about negotiating scholarships. The worst that can happen is they say "no", there is very little risk there. I'm more nervous about negotiating a salary, where they could baulk at my offer and hire someone else, I suppose. I'm still going to research and make an attempt at negotiating though.

[barley]

I've definitely started the negotiation game already with a couple of schools, so it's not that I'm not doing it, I just feel very uncomfortable. But I normally would have the tendency to say "oh, well, that's what they gave me so that's what I deserve." I'd love to see statistics on how much aid levels vary between men and women at some of the top law schools. If women really aren't negotiating as much, and that applies on a broad scale, you'd think there'd be a measurable difference. I wish that was part of the info required of schools (if it is, someone point me to it!).

That would definitely be interesting to see. I was very surprised when people (adcomms, students, etc.) at two schools that shall remain unnamed tried to explain my questions about unequal gender ratios by saying "We admit 50/50, it's just that fewer women choose to attend" as if that actually answered the question. They didn't say anything about scholarships, and it's pretty obvious to me that if men tend to receive more scholly money (as I suspect is the case) than women, a 50/50 admissions ratio means very little.

With that said, I did speak with another non-URM woman of color (current student) at one of those schools who told me she regretted not negotiating and strongly encouraged me to, because they're apparently pretty receptive when people from the demographics they are hurting for ask for more money.

[lemonparty]

Convos like these ^^ are why I love the ladies thread so much

[Supercalifragilistic]

Convos like these ^^ are why I love the ladies thread so much

+1 might be the most inspiring thread on TLS

[thebrownnote]

.

[Cosine12]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/smart-ki ... take-over/

ATL has pretty much always been garbage (besides their rankings which actually use somewhat relevant criteria) but this is a new low.

That headline really pissed me off too. Both on a micro ("girls"?) and a macro level (really, so it's only male students in those admission stats?).

Dumbest article ever!

I feel like what pisses me off the most is calling female law students "girls" even though the median age for an entering 1L is like mid 20s...we're women. Not girls.

UGH. Anyone else look at this joker's bio? He's from an Alabama school that doesn't require an LSAT, is not ABA accredited, and can't even get a graduate a job outside of the vast and lucrative market that is the state of Alabama. So I'm sure he understands a lot about what the "smart kids" are up to these days.

[CJRpnw]

http://abovethelaw.com/2016/03/smart-ki ... take-over/

ATL has pretty much always been garbage (besides their rankings which actually use somewhat relevant criteria) but this is a new low.

That headline really pissed me off too. Both on a micro ("girls"?) and a macro level (really, so it's only male students in those admission stats?).

Dumbest article ever!

I feel like what pisses me off the most is calling female law students "girls" even though the median age for an entering 1L is like mid 20s...we're women. Not girls.

UGH. Anyone else look at this joker's bio? He's from an Alabama school that doesn't require an LSAT, is not ABA accredited, and can't even get a graduate a job outside of the vast and lucrative market that is the state of Alabama. So I'm sure he understands a lot about what the "smart kids" are up to these days.

Hahahaha, amazing. Nice find!

[barley]

I'm not a lady, so I apologize if I'm not supposed to post in this thread. But I have hired 50+ people in my working days, and it has been my experience that the women I've hired are far less likely to attempt to negotiate their salary than the men. So please, negotiate a higher scholarship for yourself, I don't want to go to school with nothing but (white) men.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

[SlithyTove]

I'm not a lady, so I apologize if I'm not supposed to post in this thread. But I have hired 50+ people in my working days, and it has been my experience that the women I've hired are far less likely to attempt to negotiate their salary than the men. So please, negotiate a higher scholarship for yourself, I don't want to go to school with nothing but (white) men.

Thanks for sharing your experience!

+1 Much appreciated!

[zozo1717]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

[birdstheword]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

CAN I GET A WHAT WHAT FOR ZOZO!!!

[schocolate]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

CAN I GET A WHAT WHAT FOR ZOZO!!!

Congrats, zozo!!! That's awesome!

[zozo1717]

Had some good results today for scholarship negotiations! Just wanted to encourage all of you to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate

CAN I GET A WHAT WHAT FOR ZOZO!!!

Congrats, zozo!!! That's awesome!

Thank you!! This is the best thread on TLS in my opinion