PT 59 discussion

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shifty_eyed
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PT 59 discussion

Postby shifty_eyed » Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 pm

A lot of people in the June study group thread have recently taken or plan to take PT 59. For ease of discussion/continuity, I'm starting a thread dedicated to this PT. Non-Juners, please feel free to chime in!

First question:

princeR wrote:
For those who took PT 59, please explain how B is correct on the 4th passage question 23. The second part about it resulting from evolutionary means sounded really good, but the first part is definitely not right. It states, "although the reactions most commonly displayed by participants appear to conflict with rational self-interest." Really now? I mean, in its explanation of the game it states that many offer around 40-50% and that it is just in those rare instances in which only 4/100 try to low ball the responder that the responder acts against rational self-interest by turning down the offer. So how can we possibly say that the reactions most commonly displayed go against self-interest? This really bothered me...

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princeR
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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby princeR » Fri May 25, 2012 4:31 pm

Good call Shifty!

*Insert witty gif*

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gaud
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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby gaud » Fri May 25, 2012 4:32 pm


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Postby VasaVasori » Fri May 25, 2012 4:35 pm

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Postby VasaVasori » Fri May 25, 2012 4:36 pm

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby princeR » Fri May 25, 2012 4:37 pm


Thanks. I just went and checked and someone asked the same question about the same thing lol. Has a pretty good explanation. I should have just went with it, I've never seen a MP question that would throw a trick in like that, if it was in fact a trick.

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shifty_eyed
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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby shifty_eyed » Fri May 25, 2012 4:37 pm

princeR wrote:Good call Shifty!

*Insert witty gif*

Image

PT 59.4.23
For those who took PT 59, please explain how B is correct on the 4th passage question 23. The second part about it resulting from evolutionary means sounded really good, but the first part is definitely not right. It states, "although the reactions most commonly displayed by participants appear to conflict with rational self-interest." Really now? I mean, in its explanation of the game it states that many offer around 40-50% and that it is just in those rare instances in which only 4/100 try to low ball the responder that the responder acts against rational self-interest by turning down the offer. So how can we possibly say that the reactions most commonly displayed go against self-interest? This really bothered me...


Most responders (2/3rds) offer 40-50% to the other person. This goes against rational self-interest because they could easy offer only 1-20% to the other person, and the other person, rationally, should take it because something is better than nothing. Thus, It would be in the offerers' rational self-interest to offer the other person much less than 40%. But not only do most people who do the offering go against their rational self-interest, most people who ARE offered small amounts turn the small amounts down in favor of nothing.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby gaud » Fri May 25, 2012 4:38 pm

princeR wrote:

Thanks. I just went and checked and someone asked the same question about the same thing lol. Has a pretty good explanation. I should have just went with it, I've never seen a MP question that would throw a trick in like that, if it was in fact a trick.


If you never check on that site I'd recommend you do. Most of the questions they have explanations for are the 'tricky ones'; also, sometimes it's nice to see someone else's explanation

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby shifty_eyed » Fri May 25, 2012 4:39 pm

VasaVasori wrote:My thought process on question #13, and could someone please explain why my answer is wrong/why the real answer is right? I think I just have my head stuck in this thought process and can't critically assess the situation, because the more I think about it the more I think I'm right.

VasaVasori wrote:For #13, I put E because I was trying to justify why psychologists should identify nightmare-prone children. After all, if E is true, I thought, then they would have a reason to identify the children and teach the technique only to them, instead of more generally to all children. If psychologists were to direct their efforts to teaching the technique to ALL children, instead of identifying those children who needed to be taught the technique, then they would fulfill C much more thoroughly. So it seemed to me that C was excluded by the fact that they were focusing their efforts on excluding people from learning the technique. To clarify: I put E because of the word "identify". If the question had eliminated that part, I would have wholeheartedly chosen C (indeed, I did pick C, then when I read E I changed my answer).


I had SO much trouble on this question as well. I also picked E.

Here's a link to the MLSAT explanation for it. I'm not 100% satisfied with the explanation, but I"ll think on it lol.
http://www.manhattanlsat.com/forums/q13-bethany-psycologists-have-discovered-t2382.html?sid=dfc1860893982969b25ad7cede7f774f

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby bdeebs » Fri May 25, 2012 5:35 pm

VasaVasori wrote:For #13, I put E because I was trying to justify why psychologists should identify nightmare-prone children. After all, if E is true, I thought, then they would have a reason to identify the children and teach the technique only to them, instead of more generally to all children. If psychologists were to direct their efforts to teaching the technique to ALL children, instead of identifying those children who needed to be taught the technique, then they would fulfill C much more thoroughly. So it seemed to me that C was excluded by the fact that they were focusing their efforts on excluding people from learning the technique. To clarify: I put E because of the word "identify". If the question had eliminated that part, I would have wholeheartedly chosen C (indeed, I did pick C, then when I read E I changed my answer).


I'll describe my method of answering this question, then address your thought process.
I tend to mark certain words in my LR sections. In this case I underlined "should", because the the stimulus offered no evidence as to why anything should happen. The conclusion merely presumes that we should identify children for the purpose of reducing nightmares. I after this, my thought was, "Okay, why?" I looked for an answer choice that answered this question. C was the only answer that made sense to me at the time, approaching the question with that mindset.

The problem I see with your line of reasoning is, "have a reason to...teach the technique only to them." Answer choice E provides no reasoning concerning what psychologists should do about people with the nightmares. You deduced that in order to know which people should not be taught, two different groups needed to be identified...I suppose that is right. However, now that the two groups are identified, the proposed action is aimed at the wrong group. The question still remains why nightmare prone children should be taught the technique. The answer is that "(Choice C)".

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 25, 2012 9:47 pm

bdeebs wrote:
VasaVasori wrote:For #13, I put E because I was trying to justify why psychologists should identify nightmare-prone children. After all, if E is true, I thought, then they would have a reason to identify the children and teach the technique only to them, instead of more generally to all children. If psychologists were to direct their efforts to teaching the technique to ALL children, instead of identifying those children who needed to be taught the technique, then they would fulfill C much more thoroughly. So it seemed to me that C was excluded by the fact that they were focusing their efforts on excluding people from learning the technique. To clarify: I put E because of the word "identify". If the question had eliminated that part, I would have wholeheartedly chosen C (indeed, I did pick C, then when I read E I changed my answer).


I'll describe my method of answering this question, then address your thought process.
I tend to mark certain words in my LR sections. In this case I underlined "should", because the the stimulus offered no evidence as to why anything should happen. The conclusion merely presumes that we should identify children for the purpose of reducing nightmares. I after this, my thought was, "Okay, why?" I looked for an answer choice that answered this question. C was the only answer that made sense to me at the time, approaching the question with that mindset.

The problem I see with your line of reasoning is, "have a reason to...teach the technique only to them." Answer choice E provides no reasoning concerning what psychologists should do about people with the nightmares. You deduced that in order to know which people should not be taught, two different groups needed to be identified...I suppose that is right. However, now that the two groups are identified, the proposed action is aimed at the wrong group. The question still remains why nightmare prone children should be taught the technique. The answer is that "(Choice C)".



I agree with this. We are only concerned with why psychologists should teach these techniques to children with nightmares, saying they shouldn't teach it to those without nightmares doesn't help explain this. Wouldn't it be fine if they taught it to all kids?

I think the key to this question is that "Thus," introduces the conclusion for us, and what is they conclusion based on? The fact that children with nightmares are more likely to be adults with nightmares, so the argument is mainly concerned with reducing adults with nightmares. Anyway, I'm really tired right now and disappointed in my score and both of those are working against my ability to articulate, fwiw.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby Micdiddy » Fri May 25, 2012 9:54 pm

I thought 24 in LR1 was an incredibly deceptive answer and I would like to address it:

First of all, upon first reading I choose B because it fit nicely in the blank and seemed to follow logically from the premises. Upon second reading, I decided that B was concerned with what should be credit card companies "selling point" whereas the stimulus clearly states "credit card companies tend to concentrate on improving the services their customers are the most interested in." It doesn't say they highlight those services when selling, it only states that they improve them. If this is of primary concern, wouldn't to conclusion logically have to be about companies not improving interest rates or improving something else about their business?

Then I saw E, which seemed implausible at first because it says "the most intense competition..." which as a savvy LSAT taker I know is difficult to prove and to never choose answers with such strong language unless specifically substantiated by the stimulus. Comparing it to the stimulus though I saw that 59% of their customer were "intending to use the cards only to avoid carrying cash and writing checks..." meaning avoiding carrying cash and writing checks must be these customers primary concern.

Now, since we know companies primarily care about improving services their customers are most interested in, and we know a majority of their customer must be most interested in using cards to avoid cash or checks, doesn't E extremely logically follow this train of thought?

It's not worded as nicely, and it wasn't my first guess, but I have never seen so much evidence for a supposed wrong answer before now. Please help me!

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby man_utd_4l » Fri May 25, 2012 10:03 pm

Hey all. Took 59 this afternoon. Way to tired to give it look tonight, but will be reviewing it tomorrow. Send me a PM if you want to meet up on skype or in the Manhattan LSAT study room.

RC rocked me, but I thought that the rest of the test was fair.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby NoodleyOne » Sat May 26, 2012 11:43 am

Took it today and got my highest pt score yet, but I'm not happy with some of my mistakes after a quick glance. Might be able to go over it tomorrow with someone if anyone is interested...

Can't believe I got -3 on LG... Grrrrrr

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby Micdiddy » Sun May 27, 2012 4:25 pm

I'm going to bump this because I really want some insight into what I posted a few above ^^^^^ MLSAT forums explanation didn't cut it for me.

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Postby VasaVasori » Sun May 27, 2012 4:45 pm

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby man_utd_4l » Sun May 27, 2012 5:18 pm

Micdiddy wrote:I thought 24 in LR1 was an incredibly deceptive answer and I would like to address it:

First of all, upon first reading I choose B because it fit nicely in the blank and seemed to follow logically from the premises. Upon second reading, I decided that B was concerned with what should be credit card companies "selling point" whereas the stimulus clearly states "credit card companies tend to concentrate on improving the services their customers are the most interested in." It doesn't say they highlight those services when selling, it only states that they improve them. If this is of primary concern, wouldn't to conclusion logically have to be about companies not improving interest rates or improving something else about their business?

Then I saw E, which seemed implausible at first because it says "the most intense competition..." which as a savvy LSAT taker I know is difficult to prove and to never choose answers with such strong language unless specifically substantiated by the stimulus. Comparing it to the stimulus though I saw that 59% of their customer were "intending to use the cards only to avoid carrying cash and writing checks..." meaning avoiding carrying cash and writing checks must be these customers primary concern.

Now, since we know companies primarily care about improving services their customers are most interested in, and we know a majority of their customer must be most interested in using cards to avoid cash or checks, doesn't E extremely logically follow this train of thought?

It's not worded as nicely, and it wasn't my first guess, but I have never seen so much evidence for a supposed wrong answer before now. Please help me!


I felt that this problem was tricky, but not exceedingly so. In my initial read of the answer choices I was able to narrow it down to B and D, which I know is different from what you did, but I will tie it all back together as I go through the answer choices.

The stimulus tells us something along the lines that the large portion of consumers anticipate paying off their credit cards before interest begins to accumulate. In then tells us that the primary reason why they do use credit cards is to avoid having cash or checks on them. Understandable, who carries cash these days anyways? The stimulus brings the above together by stating that in order to gain a large share of the market credit card companies then to focus their efforts on improving services that their customers would be most interested in. Simple enough:

(A) This answer choice is at best unsupported. There maybe factors that do make customers care about which company they use.

(B) keep for now since we both had this answer choice as a "champion."

(C) This answer choice is a bit tempting, but the more we look at it the less it is compelling. This answer choice tells customers have a preference to paying the credit interest rather than acquiring money from bank loans. The stimulus didn't really tell us anything about the preferences of the customers in relation to where they obtain their money and if they prefer this to credit interest payments.Out of scope.

(D) For me this answer choice was tempting, but in the end it is not credited. This answer choice tells us that they would ignore time before interest kicks in. This doesn't seem right. They plan on paying their balance off before that time, so know just how long they have until that period would be something that they would want to know.

(E) As you stated in your original post, this answer choice is extremely strong. Saying that this point would be the most intense area of competition between the companies is bold. Furthermore, we have no idea if this is an area in which customers "are the most interested in." In the real world this might be an assumption that we could make, and the real why no uses American Express anymore. However, this goes a little far for this question. The only thing we know for sure about the customers and their preferences is that they plan on paying off the balance before the interest kicks in and they don't like carrying cash/checks. This answer choice would require us to make a pretty health jump and impose preferences on the customers that we just can't do.

Back to answer choice B:

B matches a key piece of evidence that was used in the stimulus-people plan on having the balanced paid off before interest rates kick in. Thus, for these people in this argument, the interest rate really doesn't matter to them. They are never going to making interest payments (at least they don't plan on doing so).

I hope this helps! Let me know if I can clarify anything for you. BTW, I didn't glance over the Manhattan forum before posting this, so if it is repetitive forgive me.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby man_utd_4l » Sun May 27, 2012 5:21 pm

Does someone want to explain how they arrived at answer choice E for 59.3.21. It is the QWERTY interference question.

I ended up selecting answer choice A, which is not credited. I see that we cannot infer that most people would improve their typing speed just because the possibility is out there. I am more interested in seeing how you guys justified E.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby Micdiddy » Sun May 27, 2012 5:24 pm

Everything you guys said is true, and obviously why B is the right answer (I suppose). I guess I just didn't like that the LSAT made a jump from what companies should do, to a conclusion about what they should not advertise. I feel like this jump to get the right answer is a similar jump that the LSAT often penalizes test-takers for making in different LSAT questions.
With that said, again I felt B was the obvious answer at first anyway, then I guess just psyched myself on review to convince myself something else was better. To this point I think I have changed from the right to wrong answer upon reviewing at the end of a section as many times as I have changed from wrong to right.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby princeR » Sun May 27, 2012 5:38 pm

man_utd_4l wrote:Does someone want to explain how they arrived at answer choice E for 59.3.21. It is the QWERTY interference question.

I ended up selecting answer choice A, which is not credited. I see that we cannot infer that most people would improve their typing speed just because the possibility is out there. I am more interested in seeing how you guys justified E.

Man, what a terrible question!

The type writer was designed before the keyboard. The original design for the type writer was QWERTY because of necessity to make it clumsy to reduce typing speed and therefore reduce the possibility of the type writer jamming. The keyboard seemed to follow suit in this design. However, we have even been told that experiments have shown that other keyboard configurations are faster and more efficient than QWERTY. The only reason we have been told that the original type writer was designed was because of its susceptibility to jamming. This is just for the type writer though, not the keyboard. Thus, I see that E is a credited response because QWERTY was designed for the type writer to reduce typing speed so that it could cut down on it jamming. The keyboard has no need for this design, in fact, there are faster models out there.

Does this help? Just think of the contrast between the keyboard and the typewriter. Don't assume that they are the same. There is some contrast made between the two. In fact, I have found that in a lot of inference questions there is some sort of contrast made between two things. Notice the shift in language. The first sentence introduces both the type writer and the keyboard as using QWERTY. However, the second sentence indicates that this design is due to an inherent flaw in the type writer. We than go on to say that there are other faster designs that could be implemented on the keyboard.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby Micdiddy » Sun May 27, 2012 5:42 pm

man_utd_4l wrote:Does someone want to explain how they arrived at answer choice E for 59.3.21. It is the QWERTY interference question.

I ended up selecting answer choice A, which is not credited. I see that we cannot infer that most people would improve their typing speed just because the possibility is out there. I am more interested in seeing how you guys justified E.


I missed this question too! But I totally misread B and ended up choosing that.
E was definitely one of those that seems way too tangential at first, but a proper review of the other choices leaves it as the only reasonable answer:

A: The problem here is the word "most." Experiments have shown that other keyboard layouts can double typing speed, but that doesn't mean a majority of people who have ever tried them have improved their typing speed. Lots of people familiar with QWERTY probably tried these and couldn't function on them because they were different, whereas only under experimental, controlled settings with professional typist was it shown that non-QWERTY can improve speed. Make sense?

B: I misread this one as early typewriters were MORE likely to jam, which made sense to me because that's why they had to design them to reduce typing speed. As written, it clearly makes no sense and is unsupported. If anything, newer typewriters should be better when it comes to jamming, or possibly just as bad, but there is no evidence older ones were better.

C: This is just way off base and still probably incorrect. Even if early designers could foresee future technology, for the typewriters they were producing at that moment jamming is still a concern, hence they would still have to use a QWERTY design even if they think in the future it will be unnecessary.

D: Again, there is no proof of this and if anything the opposite is supported in the last sentence.

E: Well now, I think we pretty well eliminated all other choices, but let's still see if this one makes sense. I think it is a reasonable LSATy assumption to make that we know computers cannot jam the way typewriters do. If this is the case, the keyboard would not have needed to be designed to reduce typing speed and therefore reduce jamming. It's a couple of syllogisms away from seeming relevant, but upon a second look (again, because I did miss this one also) I think it is reasonable.

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby princeR » Sun May 27, 2012 5:45 pm

Diddy, I also chose B due to misreading. This explanation I gave is after looking at it again.

I suppose the last sentence also can support E as well. We are told that there are better designs than QWERTY but the cost of switching is just too much. So we know that there are designs for the keyboard that are faster and more efficient that QWERTY. The only reason the keyboard is on QWERTY is because it adopted the design from the type writer and is now too much of a hassle to switch. The keyboard seems to have no reason to have the QWERTY design and in fact, is actually worse than other designs. E seems to be credited with this line of thinking.

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Postby VasaVasori » Sun May 27, 2012 6:41 pm

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Re: PT 59 discussion

Postby NoodleyOne » Sun May 27, 2012 9:40 pm

That question was a bitch... Only one I got wrong in that section. I actually eliminated e immediately because it seemed out of scope. Tricky question.




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