ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

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traehekat
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ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:58 pm

After going through the LSAT, LS apps, first year of LS, OCI, etc., here is something that I cannot believe is not stressed more on here, because it is so unbelievably obvious. First, three simple, noncontroversial facts:

1. Legal hiring is still down from 2007/2008 and will likely never return to those levels, and thus it is extremely competitive.
2. Legal hiring is predominately based on two factors: (1) what law school you attend, and (2) what your law school grades are.
3. What law school you attend is predominately based on two factors: (1) your LSAT score, and (2) your undergraduate GPA.

So, it is pretty easy to see that the higher your LSAT score is, the better your chances are of finding a job out of law school. When I say "finding a job," for a lot of people I'm talking about the difference between being crushed by mountains of debt for the rest of your life with very few job prospects, and landing a job with a firm paying you $160,000 to start.

Also, no one will deny that the better your LSAT score is, the better your chances are of not only getting into a better school, but receiving a large scholarship from a great school. Again, I'm talking about a difference of up to $150,000 for a lot of schools, which actually comes out to something like $420,000+ with interest on those loans.

Now, it isn't an exact science, but I think it is pretty obvious that EVERY SINGLE POINT ON THE LSAT is worth a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY. Within a certain range, 3-4 points can be worth MILLIONS in lifetime earnings. Here is a final fact:

4. YOU CAN TAKE THE LSAT MULTIPLE TIMES AT RELATIVELY VERY LITTLE COST IN TERMS OF TIME AND MONEY.

I do not think it is controversial to say that given the value of each LSAT point, rational actors who want to attend law school will take the LSAT at least 3 times before they are precluded from retaking it again for another two years. Unless you score a 175+ on your first or second attempt, there is absolutely NO reason to not max out your score.

TL/DR: Given the value of every LSAT point and the nature/current state of legal hiring, you are out of your mind if you do not take the at least LSAT 3 times, regardless of your score.

t14fanboy
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby t14fanboy » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:06 pm

Retake a 180.

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pizzabrosauce
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby pizzabrosauce » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:46 pm

I think there's the sentiment that its shameful and TTT to keep retaking. (From peers, parents, etc)

While this may be true of other tests, I don't think its the case for law school/LSAT

Given this economy and nature of law hiring, given the weight of the LSAT, and the fact that only the highest grade is used, the perception needs to be changed.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby AbhiJ » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:01 pm

Life is not linear, plans go astray, you get sick, you get fired, you change careers, future is uncertain etc.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby Mr.Binks » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:16 pm

While I'll agree this is true for most people, I don't necessarily think someone with a score in the higher end of the 99th percentile should necessarily retake, since several schools evaluate your app based on all your scores, and frown upon taking the LSAT multiple times (e.g., Yale). Also, the chances that you're going to get higher than a 178 is unlikely...

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:25 pm

traehekat wrote:Now, it isn't an exact science, but I think it is pretty obvious that EVERY SINGLE POINT ON THE LSAT is worth a SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY. Within a certain range, 3-4 points can be worth MILLIONS in lifetime earnings. Here is a final fact:

This very greatly depends on your GPA.

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:04 pm

Mr.Binks wrote:While I'll agree this is true for most people, I don't necessarily think someone with a score in the higher end of the 99th percentile should necessarily retake, since several schools evaluate your app based on all your scores, and frown upon taking the LSAT multiple times (e.g., Yale). Also, the chances that you're going to get higher than a 178 is unlikely...


That is obvious, and is why I said that UNLESS you score a 175+ on your first or second attempt you should take it three times.

Re: heavenwood, the point is simple: every point on the LSAT increases your chance of admission at every single school. obviously GPA remains a factor, but you cannot simply "retake" undergrad all over again like you can a test.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:08 pm

traehekat wrote:Re: heavenwood, the point is simple: every point on the LSAT increases your chance of admission at every single school

GPA floors, bro.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby Easy-E » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:20 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:Re: heavenwood, the point is simple: every point on the LSAT increases your chance of admission at every single school

GPA floors, bro.



:cry:

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby 20130312 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:25 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:Re: heavenwood, the point is simple: every point on the LSAT increases your chance of admission at every single school

GPA floors, bro.

traehekat wrote:obviously GPA remains a factor

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:28 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:Re: heavenwood, the point is simple: every point on the LSAT increases your chance of admission at every single school

GPA floors, bro.


That isn't even close to a reason not to take the LSAT 3 times. "Even if I score a 180, Y/H/S will never accept me with a 2.2 GPA, so what's the point of taking the LSAT again?!" I debate that is even factual, but assuming it is, it ignores the obvious fact that it will increase your odds of admission/scholarship money at other schools. We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby 20130312 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:29 pm

traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


I got a 169. Should I retake?

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:37 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


I got a 169. Should I retake?


Absolutely. I looked at your LSN profile, if you score a 171+ you are probably in at a few T14's (increasing your odds of gainful employment) or due for some more scholarship money from the schools you are currently in at. A couple points couple be worth $50,000+, so are you going to tell me it's just not worth it for you?

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20130312
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby 20130312 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:39 pm

traehekat wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


I got a 169. Should I retake?


Absolutely. I looked at your LSN profile, if you score a 171+ you are probably in at a few T14's (increasing your odds of gainful employment) or due for some more scholarship money from the schools you are currently in at. A couple points couple be worth $50,000+, so are you going to tell me it's just not worth it for you?


I plan on retaking, but I like validation, considering I'm retaking a score that many would kill to have in the first place.

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:50 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
traehekat wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


I got a 169. Should I retake?


Absolutely. I looked at your LSN profile, if you score a 171+ you are probably in at a few T14's (increasing your odds of gainful employment) or due for some more scholarship money from the schools you are currently in at. A couple points couple be worth $50,000+, so are you going to tell me it's just not worth it for you?


I plan on retaking, but I like validation, considering I'm retaking a score that many would kill to have in the first place.


It's weird cause like, the whole mindset of LSAT prep should be changed. If it is common practice for people to take the LSAT 3 times, then you don't sound like a "jackass" when you say you received a 169 but you are going to retake. Of course you are going to retake if it's your first attempt! Just because some people may never reach a 169 or whatever doesn't mean you shouldn't try to obtain the best score possible before you apply.

This brings up one of the first common and widespread mistakes newly minted law students make: I'm in at X law school, and that's good enough for me! And why do people ACROSS THE BOARD think it's good enough? Because it's law school! Everyone thinks it's so cool they are going to be a lawyer. Truth is, you are FAR from becoming a lawyer and you need to start worry about debt and job prospects before you even decide to go. Not while you are in school. Not during OCI. Not when you graduate. Right NOW, before you decide to go. So many people fail to do this it is baffling. Obtaining the best LSAT score possible is the single best thing you can do at this juncture to INCREASE your job prospects and DECREASE your debt.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:58 pm

traehekat wrote:It's weird cause like, the whole mindset of LSAT prep should be changed. If it is common practice for people to take the LSAT 3 times, then you don't sound like a "jackass" when you say you received a 169 but you are going to retake. Of course you are going to retake if it's your first attempt! Just because some people may never reach a 169 or whatever doesn't mean you shouldn't try to obtain the best score possible before you apply.

This brings up one of the first common and widespread mistakes newly minted law students make: I'm in at X law school, and that's good enough for me! And why do people ACROSS THE BOARD think it's good enough? Because it's law school! Everyone thinks it's so cool they are going to be a lawyer. Truth is, you are FAR from becoming a lawyer and you need to start worry about debt and job prospects before you even decide to go. Not while you are in school. Not during OCI. Not when you graduate. Right NOW, before you decide to go. So many people fail to do this it is baffling. Obtaining the best LSAT score possible is the single best thing you can do at this juncture to INCREASE your job prospects and DECREASE your debt.

Of course you could end up scoring lower. You're not wrong in the general sense, but sometimes you just hit your max. I beat my PT high by a point on test day after struggling with the damn thing for almost a year. It was a well-received fluke, but a fluke all the same. The other issue was I literally had to start last year, as in, I wouldn't have received any help if I had taken a year between. Gotta love simultaneously generous/stubborn parents.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby DonnaDraper » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:06 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:It's weird cause like, the whole mindset of LSAT prep should be changed. If it is common practice for people to take the LSAT 3 times, then you don't sound like a "jackass" when you say you received a 169 but you are going to retake. Of course you are going to retake if it's your first attempt! Just because some people may never reach a 169 or whatever doesn't mean you shouldn't try to obtain the best score possible before you apply.

This brings up one of the first common and widespread mistakes newly minted law students make: I'm in at X law school, and that's good enough for me! And why do people ACROSS THE BOARD think it's good enough? Because it's law school! Everyone thinks it's so cool they are going to be a lawyer. Truth is, you are FAR from becoming a lawyer and you need to start worry about debt and job prospects before you even decide to go. Not while you are in school. Not during OCI. Not when you graduate. Right NOW, before you decide to go. So many people fail to do this it is baffling. Obtaining the best LSAT score possible is the single best thing you can do at this juncture to INCREASE your job prospects and DECREASE your debt.

Of course you could end up scoring lower. You're not wrong in the general sense, but sometimes you just hit your max. I beat my PT high by a point on test day after struggling with the damn thing for almost a year. It was a well-received fluke, but a fluke all the same. The other issue was I literally had to start last year, as in, I wouldn't have received any help if I had taken a year between. Gotta love simultaneously generous/stubborn parents.


I was in a similar stubborn parents situation last year and I ended up having my way....then again, my GPA sucks so I pretty much didn't have a choice (in my mind at least). I fought with my dad for a whole year having to listen to him constantly saying "You could be in law school right now." In the end, retook and ended up much better off. Best "I told you so" I have had thus far.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:09 pm

traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


Put simply: keep taking the LSAT until you get 170+. After that, whether you should retake depends on your GPA.

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:11 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:It's weird cause like, the whole mindset of LSAT prep should be changed. If it is common practice for people to take the LSAT 3 times, then you don't sound like a "jackass" when you say you received a 169 but you are going to retake. Of course you are going to retake if it's your first attempt! Just because some people may never reach a 169 or whatever doesn't mean you shouldn't try to obtain the best score possible before you apply.

This brings up one of the first common and widespread mistakes newly minted law students make: I'm in at X law school, and that's good enough for me! And why do people ACROSS THE BOARD think it's good enough? Because it's law school! Everyone thinks it's so cool they are going to be a lawyer. Truth is, you are FAR from becoming a lawyer and you need to start worry about debt and job prospects before you even decide to go. Not while you are in school. Not during OCI. Not when you graduate. Right NOW, before you decide to go. So many people fail to do this it is baffling. Obtaining the best LSAT score possible is the single best thing you can do at this juncture to INCREASE your job prospects and DECREASE your debt.

Of course you could end up scoring lower. You're not wrong in the general sense, but sometimes you just hit your max. I beat my PT high by a point on test day after struggling with the damn thing for almost a year. It was a well-received fluke, but a fluke all the same. The other issue was I literally had to start last year, as in, I wouldn't have received any help if I had taken a year between. Gotta love simultaneously generous/stubborn parents.


The vast majority of people do not score higher than their highest PT, so we are talking about a very small subgroup of people who are faced with the decision of whether to retake or not. Among those people, among those in the 150-166 range, I would still recommend retaking for two reasons: (1) If you study properly for another 3+ months, it is unlikely you will score lower then your previous LSAT, and (2) even if you DO score lower, the kind of schools you are looking at with a 150-166 (hell, maybe 167-169) are almost solely interested in simply increasing their LSAT/GPA medians and moving up in the rankings, so if you have a score that increases or at least meets their target LSAT median, they likely aren't going to care if you scored a bit lower on the last one. Even if many DID care, I would say it would still be worth the risk given the enormous benefits you receive for each LSAT point. Among schools in the 170+ median range, I would simply restate that it is unlikely you will score lower and that the risk that you could are worth the possible benefits.

Regarding the issue with the parents, if they won't let you stay in their house while you study for a test that could save you tens upon thousands of dollars, then you are dealing with some irrational actors and it's really no fault of your own. If your parents will LITERALLY make you homeless if you do not attend law school this very year, not much you can do. Otherwise, do as the other poster did, and just fight with them on it and try to explain how retaking has a significant impact upon whether or not you will live under a mountain of debt for the rest of your life.

bk1 wrote:
traehekat wrote:We are talking about scores most typically in the 150-170 range, and those should ALWAYS be retaken, regardless of GPA.


Put simply: keep taking the LSAT until you get 170+. After that, whether you should retake depends on your GPA.


Yeah, I would go a little further to 175 but you have the basic point, since 169 and below covers the vast majority of LSAT takers.
Last edited by traehekat on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:13 pm

traehekat wrote: (2) even if you DO score lower, the kind of schools you are looking at with a 150-166 (hell, maybe 167-169) are almost solely interested in simply increasing their LSAT/GPA medians and moving up in the rankings, so if you have a score that increases or at least meets their target LSAT median, they likely aren't going to care if you scored a bit lower on the last one. Even if many DID care, I would say it would still be worth the risk given the enormous benefits you receive for each LSAT point. Among schools in the 170+ median range, I would simply restate that it is unlikely you will score lower and that the risk that you could are worth the possible benefits.


What risk? Even T14's give zero fucks about retakes (for the most part).

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby beachbum » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:18 pm

bk1 wrote:Put simply: keep taking the LSAT until you get 170+. After that, whether you should retake depends on your GPA.

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traehekat
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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:20 pm

bk1 wrote:
traehekat wrote: (2) even if you DO score lower, the kind of schools you are looking at with a 150-166 (hell, maybe 167-169) are almost solely interested in simply increasing their LSAT/GPA medians and moving up in the rankings, so if you have a score that increases or at least meets their target LSAT median, they likely aren't going to care if you scored a bit lower on the last one. Even if many DID care, I would say it would still be worth the risk given the enormous benefits you receive for each LSAT point. Among schools in the 170+ median range, I would simply restate that it is unlikely you will score lower and that the risk that you could are worth the possible benefits.


What risk? Even T14's give zero fucks about retakes (for the most part).


About retakes in general? Yeah, no one cares about that. That is this situation:

Applicant 1 LSAT Scores: 170
Applicant 2 LSAT Scores: 164, 166, 170

No school would differentiate between these students in any even close to significant way based on their LSAT. I was talking about the situation where you score LOWER on a more recent LSAT, like this:

Applicant 1 LSAT Scores: 170
Applicant 2 LSAT Scores, 164, 170, 165

I don't think MANY schools would differentiate between the two in any significant way, but I think some might, like those that generally don't care AS much about climbing the rankings, such as T14s.

Either way, Applicant 2 in the second scenario doesn't exist too often. Generally speaking, you study for the LSAT properly and then you receive a higher score. That's how learning works.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby HeavenWood » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:34 pm

traehekat wrote:Regarding the issue with the parents, if they won't let you stay in their house while you study for a test that could save you tens upon thousands of dollars, then you are dealing with some irrational actors and it's really no fault of your own. If your parents will LITERALLY make you homeless if you do not attend law school this very year, not much you can do. Otherwise, do as the other poster did, and just fight with them on it and try to explain how retaking has a significant impact upon whether or not you will live under a mountain of debt for the rest of your life.

I think you misunderstood. This was the difference between getting all of law school taken care of and none of it at all (I could have finagled my way into a menial-paying-but-but-fun-job to make ends meet for the time being). I got into my top choice anyway, and given my career goals, the only schools that would have been better for my purposes were YHS (and given my unimpressive softs, I would have needed an additional six points to even be in the running for H).

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby traehekat » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:54 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
traehekat wrote:Regarding the issue with the parents, if they won't let you stay in their house while you study for a test that could save you tens upon thousands of dollars, then you are dealing with some irrational actors and it's really no fault of your own. If your parents will LITERALLY make you homeless if you do not attend law school this very year, not much you can do. Otherwise, do as the other poster did, and just fight with them on it and try to explain how retaking has a significant impact upon whether or not you will live under a mountain of debt for the rest of your life.

I think you misunderstood. This was the difference between getting all of law school taken care of and none of it at all (I could have finagled my way into a menial-paying-but-but-fun-job to make ends meet for the time being). I got into my top choice anyway, and given my career goals, the only schools that would have been better for my purposes were YHS (and given my unimpressive softs, I would have needed an additional six points to even be in the running for H).


That's fair I would say. If your choices were "Go to Penn now and parents will pay for everything" v. "Retake for a chance at HYS but lose money from parents for Penn," then you probably made the right decision. It wasn't like you were gunning for more scholarship money, since it was pretty much taken care of. I mean, haha, rational for YOU, but not your parents who are footing the bill, but whatever. As I'm sure you know, however, that whole situation is impossibly rare and you are fortunate your parents are in the position to help! The vast majority of law students, however, are heading to law school (T14s included) with little to no scholarship money or financial assistance and without taking the LSAT 3 times, and that's crazy.

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Re: ITE, yes, you absolutely must retake!

Postby Jeffort » Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:47 pm

traehekat,

You sound like a 2L that recently started second semester, didn't get offers from OCI, regrets some past decisions and is now freaking out and cracking under the pressure.

Calm down, it's a marathon not a sprint. Take some time off during your spring break period, enjoy good R&R time and then refocus. Your freaking out stress level practically bled through my monitor while reading your posts in this thread.

Start now with this song, two performances of the same song. I like the first one more but they are both great and applicable to what seems to be your current state of affairs.

Under Pressure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-rkJmRiFug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEJg8w9fGdA

Good luck. Maybe go for a jog and do some extracurricular activities too to stop you from freaking out more and possibly cracking up completely.




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